why so much hate on OW? from what ive seen on streams it looks pretty cool and I definitely will be spending more time playing it than tf2 when it comes out.
it also will be nice to get more than 2 updates per year imo
also yay mm in tf2, let's just hope they will balance some unlocks when TB campaign is over
why so much hate on OW? from what ive seen on streams it looks pretty cool and I definitely will be spending more time playing it than tf2 when it comes out.
it also will be nice to get more than 2 updates per year imo
also yay mm in tf2, let's just hope they will balance some unlocks when TB campaign is over
criticism =/= hate.
flame has posted some very valid points as to why overwatch is structured poorly and doomed to fail. your comment however serves no purpose besides ball-licking
"looking pretty cool' is a mediocre statement to say the least. but i guess it's the representation of the type of player-base blizzard is trying to get into their game.
criticism =/= hate.
flame has posted some very valid points as to why overwatch is structured poorly and doomed to fail. your comment however serves no purpose besides ball-licking
"looking pretty cool' is a mediocre statement to say the least. but i guess it's the representation of the type of player-base blizzard is trying to get into their game.
coIecriticism =/= hate.
flame has posted some very valid points as to why overwatch is structured poorly and doomed to fail. your comment however serves no purpose besides ball-licking
"looking pretty cool' is a mediocre statement to say the least. but i guess it's the representation of the type of player-base blizzard is trying to get into their game.
yep seems like hate to me
[quote=coIe]criticism =/= hate.
flame has posted some very valid points as to why overwatch is structured poorly and doomed to fail. your comment however serves no purpose besides ball-licking
"looking pretty cool' is a mediocre statement to say the least. but i guess it's the representation of the type of player-base blizzard is trying to get into their game.[/quote]
yep seems like hate to me
I've seen a lot of what amounts to essentially Blizzard apologism around recently. There seems to be a bunch of people who think that you can't criticise or be negative in any way about overwatch. It's in Blizzard's best interest to criticise the game now while it's in beta because it's orders of magnitude cheaper to fix it now than after release. There's also people pushing for the comp scene in the game to grow. If it's supposed to be competitive then the criticisms become even more important. At the end of the day no one cares about the outcome of a pub game but if a glitch/gimmick wins you a competitive game then there's outrage.
I've seen a lot of what amounts to essentially Blizzard apologism around recently. There seems to be a bunch of people who think that you can't criticise or be negative in any way about overwatch. It's in Blizzard's best interest to criticise the game now while it's in beta because it's orders of magnitude cheaper to fix it now than after release. There's also people pushing for the comp scene in the game to grow. If it's supposed to be competitive then the criticisms become even more important. At the end of the day no one cares about the outcome of a pub game but if a glitch/gimmick wins you a competitive game then there's outrage.
or, for comparison:
super smash bros 4 was busted on launch. you could literally get infinites slowly carrying you to the blast zone from a jab. there wasn't much uproar, because ssb4 was designed as a fairly casual party game first and foremost, and by the time the competitive meta was moving those issues were fixed
street fighter 5 was busted on launch. the very core to the game was in its competitive-ready, 1vs1 format. it's now considered one of the most infamous launches of recent memory, because when you up the stakes in seriousness you're also upping the backlash whenever those serious games fuck up
TF2 can get the kind of response when MM comes around, and valve knows that, and thus they're trying to optimize everything they can feasibly get their hands on. OW is designed for competition, from the getgo, so it has to immediately be put under scrutiny
or, for comparison:
super smash bros 4 was busted on launch. you could literally get infinites slowly carrying you to the blast zone from a jab. there wasn't much uproar, because ssb4 was designed as a fairly casual party game first and foremost, and by the time the competitive meta was moving those issues were fixed
street fighter 5 was busted on launch. the very core to the game was in its competitive-ready, 1vs1 format. it's now considered one of the most infamous launches of recent memory, because when you up the stakes in seriousness you're also upping the backlash whenever those serious games fuck up
TF2 can get the kind of response when MM comes around, and valve knows that, and thus they're trying to optimize everything they can feasibly get their hands on. OW is designed for competition, from the getgo, so it has to immediately be put under scrutiny
trashTF2 can get the kind of response when MM comes around, and valve knows that, and thus they're trying to optimize everything they can feasibly get their hands on. OW is designed for competition, from the getgo, so it has to immediately be put under scrutiny
I agree that a game being buggy on launch doesn't equal a bad game, but the criticism towards the game as a whole (not the performance arguments) is not related to bugs, just how awful the gameplay is. I haven't played of course, just from what I've seen and many have said here, I say that.
[quote=trash]
TF2 can get the kind of response when MM comes around, and valve knows that, and thus they're trying to optimize everything they can feasibly get their hands on. OW is designed for competition, from the getgo, so it has to immediately be put under scrutiny[/quote]
I agree that a game being buggy on launch doesn't equal a bad game, but the criticism towards the game as a whole (not the performance arguments) is not related to bugs, just how awful the gameplay is. I haven't played of course, just from what I've seen and many have said here, I say that.
same core concept, really. the mortal kombat series was pretty horrendous for the entirety of the aughts, but they still sold well because they were incredibly casual and thus most people never noticed it inbetween the ten million ways you can horribly murder someone
making something that requires you to permanently emphasize playing to win while still being fun is fairly difficult. by comparison, TF2 until now has gotten away with fairly awful weapon design/balance because it was marketed towards casual players who wanted to conga line out of spawn and be a shit friendly heavy for the entire game, and when MM beta starts full steam ahead, I'm hoping people give it the same level of scrutiny so it can be better than that
same core concept, really. the mortal kombat series was pretty horrendous for the entirety of the aughts, but they still sold well because they were incredibly casual and thus most people never noticed it inbetween the ten million ways you can horribly murder someone
making something that requires you to permanently emphasize playing to win while still being fun is fairly difficult. by comparison, TF2 until now has gotten away with fairly awful weapon design/balance because it was marketed towards casual players who wanted to conga line out of spawn and be a shit friendly heavy for the entire game, and when MM beta starts full steam ahead, I'm hoping people give it the same level of scrutiny so it can be better than that
agreed. the difference is when we tell valve something they made is dumb or broken/awful, they listen to high level players and not reddit posts.
agreed. the difference is when we tell valve something they made is dumb or broken/awful, they listen to high level players and not reddit posts.
flameagreed. the difference is when we tell valve something they made is dumb or broken/awful, they listen to high level players and not reddit posts.
is this sarcasm?
the only valve team that listens to top level players and doesnt have a fuckin hard on for statistics is dota 2, even then most things that affect the pro scene heavily in csgo are often thrown in on such short notice, and only if both pros and reddit bitches consistently for a week, then something will be changed
valve is very ignorant, dont give them that much credit
[quote=flame]agreed. the difference is when we tell valve something they made is dumb or broken/awful, they listen to high level players and not reddit posts.[/quote]
is this sarcasm?
the only valve team that listens to top level players and doesnt have a fuckin hard on for statistics is dota 2, even then most things that affect the pro scene heavily in csgo are often thrown in on such short notice, and only if both pros and reddit bitches consistently for a week, then something will be changed
valve is very ignorant, dont give them that much credit
solathe only valve team that listens to top level players and doesnt have a fuckin hard on for statistics is dota 2,
I wouldn't really call IceFrog a "team" since he's the only one who actually balances the game. Pretty sure he looks at statistics very carefully too though (as you should).
[quote=sola]the only valve team that listens to top level players and doesnt have a fuckin hard on for statistics is dota 2,[/quote]
I wouldn't really call IceFrog a "team" since he's the only one who actually balances the game. Pretty sure he looks at statistics very carefully too though (as you should).
brownymastersolathe only valve team that listens to top level players and doesnt have a fuckin hard on for statistics is dota 2,
I wouldn't really call IceFrog a "team" since he's the only one who actually balances the game. Pretty sure he looks at statistics very carefully too though (as you should).
Youre right about IceFrog, the thing is he actually uses his brain, although he does look at statistics, my wording was wrong and i meant to say that other valve teams mainly look at stats for matchmaking games and rely on public play over pro feedback
[quote=brownymaster][quote=sola]the only valve team that listens to top level players and doesnt have a fuckin hard on for statistics is dota 2,[/quote]
I wouldn't really call IceFrog a "team" since he's the only one who actually balances the game. Pretty sure he looks at statistics very carefully too though (as you should).[/quote]
Youre right about IceFrog, the thing is he actually uses his brain, although he does look at statistics, my wording was wrong and i meant to say that other valve teams mainly look at stats for matchmaking games and rely on public play over pro feedback
I'm confident any feedback we give regarding this MM coming out will not fall on deaf ears
I'm confident any feedback we give regarding this MM coming out will not fall on deaf ears
flameAvastflameyoure all clowning if you think its going to be a ranked 6v6 pub.
thats the road overwatch seems to be going and its awful.
I don't think Valve is blind to the fact structured gameplay = good competition.
So you think the route OW's meta is going is bad? Genuinely curious.
Imagine playing a game of Dota, where some classes required intense micro (maybe a tinker), and some classes required at least one hand (sniper in 6.83) and then you gave the tinker just a blink dagger, and you gave the sniper a rapier, mask of madness, bkb and blink.
Then turn that game into an fps. Remove all concepts of balanced cooldowns, remove all concepts of hero/map ingenuity, and remove any concept of rewarding aim, and then put yourself on pl_badwater. Except instead of there being stairways to get to the roof of B, only soldiers can get up there by rocket jumping, and the only stairway up there involves walking through the RED spawn. You keep trying to take B, but instead of being able to frag or shoot anything, you have to rely on your teammates to have the most ridiculously well timed coordination to achieve anything. If your team doesn't have a medic or a shield, you'rve already lost because the game doesn't have any concept of ammo, and none of the weapons are balanced from even the point of view of reload speed so there is literally a neverending plethora of spam coming at you every 5 out of 6 seconds.
Blizzard has neglected to address the competitive aspects of the game. They added some dumb ass cvars that are only toggleable by leaving your game to go to a main menu. There are no dedicated servers, there is no console. Everything this game stands for is literally an overpriced console shooter with microtransactions. You join a game saying 'wow I want to play a fun class (like soldier scout or demoman) but the enemy team is full of pyros, and only pyros. Pyros that have airblast, rocket jumps, infinite health, sentry guns, and long range projectictles. And you know you can beat the pyros by playing ONLY engineer, or ONLY heavy but why would you want to do that... you're an fps player, with good aim, and good movement, who doesn't get rewarded by it because the game was designed to be played with an xbox controller.
That's what overwatch feels like. People hyping this game are blinded by the concept of personal success. You can be a top streamer or player, sure. And there will be tournaments. But being on a top overwatch team is going to feel like being on a top heros of the storm team. Sure you're the best at something, but that something isn't respectable.
Blizzard has time to fix the game, but the way it is now, it's a joke. I'm sure I'm in the minority saying TF2 will pick up with matchmaking and money will find a way to flow in, but if there's one thing Valve has never taken lightly it's esports. Anyone who has been to a TI will tell you its a ridiculous environment. Everything is on point, the prizes are paid immediately, the atmosphere is incredible, and the schedule/hotel/verything is top notch.
Blizzard fucked up. They made a MOBA FPS called Titan, led by no other than Jeff Kaplan. The game flopped. They didn't fire him. They instead gave him a second chance to turn their MOBA into overwatch. Now theres just a bunch of lore filled bullshit scattered throughout the game. It's trying to be everything and instead its nothing. From a MOBA pov, its awful, and from an FPS pov, it's also awful.
I think if Paragon/Battleborn/Paladins get some GOOD developer support and in game economy going, overwatch will fade out.
Sorry for the rant. Feel free to ask me for my opinion in more depth. I'm sure I'll get flamed regardless, but yeah TLDR the game's awful.
is it weird that this post just made me love tf2 even more now, lol.
[quote=flame][quote=Avast][quote=flame]youre all clowning if you think its going to be a ranked 6v6 pub.
thats the road overwatch seems to be going and its awful.
I don't think Valve is blind to the fact structured gameplay = good competition.[/quote]
So you think the route OW's meta is going is bad? Genuinely curious.[/quote]
Imagine playing a game of Dota, where some classes required intense micro (maybe a tinker), and some classes required at least one hand (sniper in 6.83) and then you gave the tinker just a blink dagger, and you gave the sniper a rapier, mask of madness, bkb and blink.
Then turn that game into an fps. Remove all concepts of balanced cooldowns, remove all concepts of hero/map ingenuity, and remove any concept of rewarding aim, and then put yourself on pl_badwater. Except instead of there being stairways to get to the roof of B, only soldiers can get up there by rocket jumping, and the only stairway up there involves walking through the RED spawn. You keep trying to take B, but instead of being able to frag or shoot anything, you have to rely on your teammates to have the most ridiculously well timed coordination to achieve anything. If your team doesn't have a medic or a shield, you'rve already lost because the game doesn't have any concept of ammo, and none of the weapons are balanced from even the point of view of reload speed so there is literally a neverending plethora of spam coming at you every 5 out of 6 seconds.
Blizzard has neglected to address the competitive aspects of the game. They added some dumb ass cvars that are only toggleable by leaving your game to go to a main menu. There are no dedicated servers, there is no console. Everything this game stands for is literally an overpriced console shooter with microtransactions. You join a game saying 'wow I want to play a fun class (like soldier scout or demoman) but the enemy team is full of pyros, and only pyros. Pyros that have airblast, rocket jumps, infinite health, sentry guns, and long range projectictles. And you know you can beat the pyros by playing ONLY engineer, or ONLY heavy but why would you want to do that... you're an fps player, with good aim, and good movement, who doesn't get rewarded by it because the game was designed to be played with an xbox controller.
That's what overwatch feels like. People hyping this game are blinded by the concept of personal success. You can be a top streamer or player, sure. And there will be tournaments. But being on a top overwatch team is going to feel like being on a top heros of the storm team. Sure you're the best at something, but that something isn't respectable.
Blizzard has time to fix the game, but the way it is now, it's a joke. I'm sure I'm in the minority saying TF2 will pick up with matchmaking and money will find a way to flow in, but if there's one thing Valve has never taken lightly it's esports. Anyone who has been to a TI will tell you its a ridiculous environment. Everything is on point, the prizes are paid immediately, the atmosphere is incredible, and the schedule/hotel/verything is top notch.
Blizzard fucked up. They made a MOBA FPS called Titan, led by no other than Jeff Kaplan. The game flopped. They didn't fire him. They instead gave him a second chance to turn their MOBA into overwatch. Now theres just a bunch of lore filled bullshit scattered throughout the game. It's trying to be everything and instead its nothing. From a MOBA pov, its awful, and from an FPS pov, it's also awful.
I think if Paragon/Battleborn/Paladins get some GOOD developer support and in game economy going, overwatch will fade out.
Sorry for the rant. Feel free to ask me for my opinion in more depth. I'm sure I'll get flamed regardless, but yeah TLDR the game's awful.[/quote]
is it weird that this post just made me love tf2 even more now, lol.
solaflameagreed. the difference is when we tell valve something they made is dumb or broken/awful, they listen to high level players and not reddit posts.
is this sarcasm?
the only valve team that listens to top level players and doesnt have a fuckin hard on for statistics is dota 2, even then most things that affect the pro scene heavily in csgo are often thrown in on such short notice, and only if both pros and reddit bitches consistently for a week, then something will be changed
valve is very ignorant, dont give them that much credit
They invited in top players to add balanced items. One of those items were GRU. How long was between that, a few years? Valve has given up, and I honestly don't think MM is more than a side project for a few devs, since they're literally printing money anyway. In terms of excitement:investment, matchmaking isn't the biggest deal for valve to implement.
//Reading through Flame's post I can only agree. Absolutely nothing feels rewarding either. Mei has a giant wall, capable of making or breaking big plays. Cool right? Oh wait, the same 3-4 popular 'ganker' heroes can insta-gib her, and a great deal of other popular heroes, with next to no risk. You need a healer? Lució or go home. Mercy is a carbon copy (almost) of the Medic, and funnily enough, fits the least into the game.
It's literally everything bad about mobas. The fact you NEED certain roles, and sometimes even specific heroes, to stand a chance. It's the reason I quit mobas. Also, does say a bit about the community and the developers when a random post with a bunch of points baffle even a developer. A company of this size shouldn't straight up need a high degree of feedback to pull off a decent game. I have a feeling they're still riding their vanilla/tbc/wotlk WoW-high. One, they're btw barely keeping alive with the fan-service expansion in.. 6 months? After a 10 month drought of no updates? Yeah. Better than TF2 xDdDd.
[quote=sola][quote=flame]agreed. the difference is when we tell valve something they made is dumb or broken/awful, they listen to high level players and not reddit posts.[/quote]
is this sarcasm?
the only valve team that listens to top level players and doesnt have a fuckin hard on for statistics is dota 2, even then most things that affect the pro scene heavily in csgo are often thrown in on such short notice, and only if both pros and reddit bitches consistently for a week, then something will be changed
valve is very ignorant, dont give them that much credit[/quote]
They invited in top players to add balanced items. One of those items were GRU. How long was between that, a few years? Valve has given up, and I honestly don't think MM is more than a side project for a few devs, since they're literally printing money anyway. In terms of excitement:investment, matchmaking isn't the biggest deal for valve to implement.
//Reading through Flame's post I can only agree. Absolutely nothing feels rewarding either. Mei has a giant wall, capable of making or breaking big plays. Cool right? Oh wait, the same 3-4 popular 'ganker' heroes can insta-gib her, and a great deal of other popular heroes, with next to no risk. You need a healer? Lució or go home. Mercy is a carbon copy (almost) of the Medic, and funnily enough, fits the least into the game.
It's literally everything bad about mobas. The fact you NEED certain roles, and sometimes even specific heroes, to stand a chance. It's the reason I quit mobas. Also, does say a bit about the community and the developers when a random post with a bunch of points baffle even a developer. A company of this size shouldn't straight up need a high degree of feedback to pull off a decent game. I have a feeling they're still riding their vanilla/tbc/wotlk WoW-high. One, they're btw barely keeping alive with the fan-service expansion in.. 6 months? After a 10 month drought of no updates? Yeah. Better than TF2 xDdDd.