So Pyro has already been considered an OP class in low level pubs only but comparatively never used in higher level gameplays. The reason of this class having such weird stats has been summarized to a few points, such as normal moving speed making it impossible to make enemies come to close range, which is the only range Pyro is effective at all, and that there are actually classes that it cant dominant in the range that it is supposed to be the best in, such as the heavy. So I have an idea that might not be the solution but might invoke some more ideas, which is the attraction force.
So the idea i have actually comes from Roadhog in Overwatch. He is a slow, tanky hero that has great close-range dmg, with a related orb as well. However he is not limited to close range. To encounter fast and far targets he has the hook. The hook doesn't really do much dmg to the target but forces it to face hog at close range. This brings a possibility for the close range class to not only wait for hitting enemies in the face, but also hunt for the chances
If the pyro is given an attraction force ability that acts most effective at middle range, the class will be able to fulfill what it is designed to be best at-- dealing short-range damage instead of being chipped down by scouts or unable to save a medic from getting backstabbed by spy who is out of range.
So if this idea works, how can we make it practical for pyro in terms of skill requirements, effectiveness? If not, are there similar alternates for soothing the pain of nerfed pyro?
EDIT: Actually I did answer to the question of why the idea differs from the sucker concept of valve, but seems like it would be better for me to answer here instead. The proposed attraction force should be the most effective at mid range and has less to negligible force at long or short range. The reason to that is the pre-nerf airblast force enemy to short range with a lame manner- locking at corners. Also it kind of defeats the points of pyro tring to fight at short range, as the airblash pushes enemy away only, making pyro more like a defense class.
So Pyro has already been considered an OP class in low level pubs only but comparatively never used in higher level gameplays. The reason of this class having such weird stats has been summarized to a few points, such as normal moving speed making it impossible to make enemies come to close range, which is the only range Pyro is effective at all, and that there are actually classes that it cant dominant in the range that it is supposed to be the best in, such as the heavy. So I have an idea that might not be the solution but might invoke some more ideas, which is the attraction force.
So the idea i have actually comes from Roadhog in Overwatch. He is a slow, tanky hero that has great close-range dmg, with a related orb as well. However he is not limited to close range. To encounter fast and far targets he has the hook. The hook doesn't really do much dmg to the target but forces it to face hog at close range. This brings a possibility for the close range class to not only wait for hitting enemies in the face, but also hunt for the chances
If the pyro is given an attraction force ability that acts most effective at middle range, the class will be able to fulfill what it is designed to be best at-- dealing short-range damage instead of being chipped down by scouts or unable to save a medic from getting backstabbed by spy who is out of range.
So if this idea works, how can we make it practical for pyro in terms of skill requirements, effectiveness? If not, are there similar alternates for soothing the pain of nerfed pyro?
[b]EDIT[/b]: Actually I did answer to the question of why the idea differs from the sucker concept of valve, but seems like it would be better for me to answer here instead. The proposed attraction force should be the most effective at mid range and has less to negligible force at long or short range. The reason to that is the pre-nerf airblast force enemy to short range with a lame manner- locking at corners. Also it kind of defeats the points of pyro tring to fight at short range, as the airblash pushes enemy away only, making pyro more like a defense class.
I mean, it sounds neat and fun but in the end, pyro is made for ambushing. It shouldn't have a weapon to counter his only weakness; distance and being spotted. It'd be like.. Giving heavy GRU. :'D
I mean, it sounds neat and fun but in the end, pyro is made for ambushing. It shouldn't have a weapon to counter his only weakness; distance and being spotted. It'd be like.. Giving heavy GRU. :'D
haven't they already tried this though, and decided it wasn't good after playtesting it?
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=13542
haven't they already tried this though, and decided it wasn't good after playtesting it?
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=13542
this sounds like complete aids to play against
this sounds like complete aids to play against
The problem is in highlander and 6s the pyro literally rarely or even never ambush. Pyros in highlander only protects the medic, you may see big plays from the pyro succeeding in getting the enemy medic by kind-of-ambushing but its just rare enough to be just luck instead of strategy. And in 6s its only use is to deny enemy uber in a lame way, locking everyone in a corner by spamming m1. These just shows that the fire of pyro becomes kind of a cheap 60dmg instead of a weapon. And the reason to that is pyros fire should never be stronger than a heavy, which is hard to strike a balance. The attraction, instead of just making the fire more painful, gives a chance for the pyro to show its strength in dmg dealing.
marrrlowehaven't they already tried this though, and decided it wasn't good after playtesting it?
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=13542
The attraction force I think of is like one shot of airblast in reverse, including the efffectiveness declines from the peak at mid-range to negligable at high and short range, and it is a burst force so will not cause trouble to server smoothness I think?
The problem is in highlander and 6s the pyro literally rarely or even never ambush. Pyros in highlander only protects the medic, you may see big plays from the pyro succeeding in getting the enemy medic by kind-of-ambushing but its just rare enough to be just luck instead of strategy. And in 6s its only use is to deny enemy uber in a lame way, locking everyone in a corner by spamming m1. These just shows that the fire of pyro becomes kind of a cheap 60dmg instead of a weapon. And the reason to that is pyros fire should never be stronger than a heavy, which is hard to strike a balance. The attraction, instead of just making the fire more painful, gives a chance for the pyro to show its strength in dmg dealing.
[quote=marrrlowe]haven't they already tried this though, and decided it wasn't good after playtesting it?
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=13542[/quote]
The attraction force I think of is like one shot of airblast in reverse, including the efffectiveness declines from the peak at mid-range to negligable at high and short range, and it is a burst force so will not cause trouble to server smoothness I think?
This has been contemplated by Valve in the gun mettle update I think. Or End of the line. But they decided it wasn't possible to actually make
This has been contemplated by Valve in the gun mettle update I think. Or End of the line. But they decided it wasn't possible to actually make
Pyro is like spy in the sense that when the enemy team has any sort of awareness it becomes 10x harder. Thats why is seems OP in pubs against abunch of newbies who struggle with wasd let alone some random dude walking at them trying to flame them to death.
Pyro is like spy in the sense that when the enemy team has any sort of awareness it becomes 10x harder. Thats why is seems OP in pubs against abunch of newbies who struggle with wasd let alone some random dude walking at them trying to flame them to death.
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=13542We've found that TF2 works best when classes and players support each other, making up for weaknesses and combining into new strengths, rather than giving any one class more and more tools to solve all potential problems.
[quote=http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=13542]
We've found that TF2 works best when classes and players support each other, making up for weaknesses and combining into new strengths, rather than giving any one class more and more tools to solve all potential problems.
[/quote]
zeFrostyPyro is like spy in the sense that when the enemy team has any sort of awareness it becomes 10x harder. Thats why is seems OP in pubs against abunch of newbies who struggle with wasd let alone some random dude walking at them trying to flame them to death.
Yeah, while we're at it, let Spy backstab while being cloaked so he can be useful even when the enemy is aware of his presence
[quote=zeFrosty]Pyro is like spy in the sense that when the enemy team has any sort of awareness it becomes 10x harder. Thats why is seems OP in pubs against abunch of newbies who struggle with wasd let alone some random dude walking at them trying to flame them to death.[/quote]
Yeah, while we're at it, let Spy backstab while being cloaked so he can be useful even when the enemy is aware of his presence
marrrlowehaven't they already tried this though, and decided it wasn't good after playtesting it?
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=13542
this blog post is exactly what came to mind when i saw the title of this thread
not only does it suck gameplay wise, but it fucks up interpolation as well, so it looks like shit technical-wise
[quote=marrrlowe]haven't they already tried this though, and decided it wasn't good after playtesting it?
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=13542[/quote]
this blog post is exactly what came to mind when i saw the title of this thread
not only does it suck gameplay wise, but it fucks up interpolation as well, so it looks like shit technical-wise
yeah the pyro is supposed to be shit at medium-long range that's why it's an ambush class
"The Pyro is designed to be the best short-range combat class, aimed at encouraging players to adopt an ambush style of play. To achieve this, we made the Pyro vulnerable in the open, which forces players to seek out enclosed areas and doorways. To add to the Pyro's short range lethality, we made the Flamethrower effects visually noisy, which helps disorient opponents long enough for the flames to finish them off."
hydro developer commentary
yeah the pyro is supposed to be shit at medium-long range that's why it's an ambush class
"The Pyro is designed to be the best short-range combat class, aimed at encouraging players to adopt an ambush style of play. To achieve this, we made the Pyro vulnerable in the open, which forces players to seek out enclosed areas and doorways. To add to the Pyro's short range lethality, we made the Flamethrower effects visually noisy, which helps disorient opponents long enough for the flames to finish them off."
hydro developer commentary
just give pyro airblast jump and call it a day
just give pyro airblast jump and call it a day
Pyro is supposed to be situational, please stop trying to make it applicable in every situation because it just doesn't work
Pyro is supposed to be situational, please stop trying to make it applicable in every situation because it just doesn't work
ignoring how it isn't technically feasible and breaks pyro
what if it completely replaced airblast, and if projectiles were caught in the suction blast, they would be redirected (like an airblast) towards the pyro? meaning if a rocket wasn't going for you, it would be now. you'd have to be way more careful using an ability like that, plus it gets rid of airblast. situational and still has its downsides
ignoring how it isn't technically feasible and breaks pyro
what if it completely replaced airblast, and if projectiles were caught in the suction blast, they would be redirected (like an airblast) towards the pyro? meaning if a rocket wasn't going for you, it would be now. you'd have to be way more careful using an ability like that, plus it gets rid of airblast. situational and still has its downsides
airblast is already fucking aids god no not every class has to be viable full time
airblast is already fucking aids god no not every class has to be viable full time
grape + ma3la have already run pyro for entire rounds and done fine on certain maps, also satan played pocket pyro for stochastics team in im for half a season lol
pyro is fine, you just need to have very strong mechanics and most people are shit at it and don't care enough to learn
grape + ma3la have already run pyro for entire rounds and done fine on certain maps, also satan played pocket pyro for stochastics team in im for half a season lol
pyro is fine, you just need to have very strong mechanics and most people are shit at it and don't care enough to learn
4812622grape + ma3la have already run pyro for entire rounds and done fine on certain maps, also satan played pocket pyro for stochastics team in im for half a season lol
pyro is fine, you just need to have very strong mechanics and most people are shit at it and don't care enough to learn
you shouldn't judge pyro on its performance in 6s, because it would never get balanced around 6s..
saying any class is good or bad in 6s (ultimately) does not matter because valve does not balance the game around 6s.
anyway, i think airblast is still a shit mechanic in tf2, and some suction mechanic would make pyro even more gay.
i would welcome the removal of the airblast and optionally give pyro a different mechanic
[quote=4812622]grape + ma3la have already run pyro for entire rounds and done fine on certain maps, also satan played pocket pyro for stochastics team in im for half a season lol
pyro is fine, you just need to have very strong mechanics and most people are shit at it and don't care enough to learn[/quote]
you shouldn't judge pyro on its performance in 6s, because it would never get balanced around 6s..
saying any class is good or bad in 6s (ultimately) does not matter because valve does not balance the game around 6s.
anyway, i think airblast is still a shit mechanic in tf2, and some suction mechanic would make pyro even more gay.
i would welcome the removal of the airblast and optionally give pyro a different mechanic
remove airblast, penalize long m1 charges with slower movement speed
add some extra dmg from behind that rewards playing sneaky
if still airblast, then add a reflect range limit or longer cool down
introduce a flame management mechanic, longer m1s disperse dmg but increase range
introduce complicated flame stream dependent on player/weapon movement
remove airblast, penalize long m1 charges with slower movement speed
add some extra dmg from behind that rewards playing sneaky
if still airblast, then add a reflect range limit or longer cool down
introduce a flame management mechanic, longer m1s disperse dmg but increase range
introduce complicated flame stream dependent on player/weapon movement
classes =/= interchangeable
pyro is good close range, bad far range, sniper's good far range, bad close range. Snipers can still land shots up close and pyros can still spam flares and airblast from afar. Seems okay to me, especially considering pyro's the most comfortable with flanking and controlling points.
newDiGiTPyros in highlander only protects the medic, you may see big plays from the pyro succeeding in getting the enemy medic by kind-of-ambushing but its just rare enough to be just luck instead of strategy.
lol that's a flaw in the format, not the class
classes =/= interchangeable
pyro is good close range, bad far range, sniper's good far range, bad close range. Snipers can still land shots up close and pyros can still spam flares and airblast from afar. Seems okay to me, especially considering pyro's the most comfortable with flanking and controlling points.
[quote=newDiGiT]Pyros in highlander only protects the medic, you may see big plays from the pyro succeeding in getting the enemy medic by kind-of-ambushing but its just rare enough to be just luck instead of strategy.[/quote]
lol that's a flaw in the format, not the class
pyro should be replaced with a jedi class
pyro should be replaced with a jedi class
57Rremove airblast, penalize long m1 charges with slower movement speed
add some extra dmg from behind that rewards playing sneaky
if still airblast, then add a reflect range limit or longer cool down
That would be like a shitty Backburner
[quote=57R]remove airblast, penalize long m1 charges with slower movement speed
add some extra dmg from behind that rewards playing sneaky
if still airblast, then add a reflect range limit or longer cool down [/quote]
That would be like a shitty Backburner