The reasons behind that at the time is that, when snakewater was bought, valve would buy any custom assets included and make them stock - which explains why they didn't want you to include custom assets. Nowadays, they don't make custom assets stock, and keep them packed in the map file, which is much more space efficient with their new map compression methods. I'd imagine you can get the snakes back in, easy.

Hole in the wall, 2nd (both sides): http://i.imgur.com/AuRToYH.png

Some weird texture things on red 2nd, in front of resupply: http://i.imgur.com/4ARIKJ2.png

Mid, top right from BLU's POV: http://i.imgur.com/0cJKDE9.png

blue catwalk, damnedly intense lamp: http://i.imgur.com/hnwNqZh.png

Red 2nd, this whole thing appears to be floating: http://i.imgur.com/jMOHc6b.png

Keek up the great work!

Forward spawns (on mid) appear to be broken on _u2.

Alright, sorry about that broken version. This one should be rather bug free considering the number of hours I've been mindlessly running around it (but I can't wait for you to prove me wrong).

Here's the most recent version: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u3.bsp.bz2

Changelog u3:

Major:
* Pulled back canopy above saw-mid connector. Image
* Fixed red forward spawn

Minor:
* Fixed missing textures
* Fixed newly introduced hiding spot
* Tweaked grass ramp
* Fixed invisible fence
* Fixed some wrong coloured textures
* Fixed solid doors in spawn
* Removed barrels from spawn
* Removed gap in fence near grass
* Simplified geometry of ramp at last
* Fixed rock sticking out of wood wall
* ???
* BLU crane is now blue!

As always, your playtesting is appreciated. Hopefully this version is stable enough for some continous playtesting of the gameplay changes.

Cheers,
chojje

I really like that you removed the overhangs from the outside of sawroom

you do get stuck on these roof overhangs though

http://puu.sh/nHZUi/eee4372407.jpg

Once again going to highly suggest that you revert the changes towards this part of last, I don't see any added benefit from these changes. This little perch spot will make defending the point a bit easier and the little ramp up to point is now just frustrating compared to the old one. I think making that little hole to point easier will honestly just make defending last easier since it opens up how much of the point you can spam without really committing to it.

http://puu.sh/nI0fz/cc4fc4a4b7.jpg

Shadows on this pretty strange looking. Probably just a thing that happens with faster compile settings.

http://puu.sh/nI0mv/bd99ed173c.jpg

Not a fan of the changed crates. I know it's not a super popular opinion but I think being able to shoot between the crates is super fun and makes this prop thing a bit more interesting. Would like to see it reverted to the older version as I don't really see the benefit of just making it a block.

http://puu.sh/nI0sb/cef1b5d06e.jpg

Packing error? I'm using dx8 so it might just be on my end.

http://puu.sh/nI0zR/b1736e8c38.jpg

Interesting addition, not really super how much it will change but it will make people cratering off the roof a less common occurrence so that's a bit sad.

http://puu.sh/nI0J6/22a35fb81a.jpg

Would be nice if you could touch up the clipping around here, you might need to add a ramp that moves up with the stairs. Being so far from the boards makes jumping a bit annoying sometimes.

http://puu.sh/nI0Mx/b940aecbbb.jpg

I like that you pulled back the overhang over the entrance to saw, it makes a few jumps much easier/more consistent. Would be nice to have them be properly mirrored though.

http://puu.sh/nI0Xg/258bf08210.jpg

Not sure if I'm just now noticing this or it was changed but the lights seem really strange in this location, having the long attachment on them in an area with fairly low ceilings is pretty weird imo. I would make these similar to the ones near the lower entrance to second so they're somewhat less in the way visually.

http://puu.sh/nI15p/6117c45ac9.jpg

You knew it was coming, once again suggesting that if you're going to clip roofs in the Product style you should do ALL of them to prevent any confusion about what will and what will not catch you during a jump or if you get bounced around.

http://puu.sh/nI18T/1697fff3b8.jpg

Clipping from over catwalk extending into saw

just a few more to build on benroads post

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/298734165333250338/76C1090F3B7B0BC503B3BBEF1BDD0CD050144D4E/

you can get caught on this clip fairly easily if you jump towards it, i would smooth it off to this side as well

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/298734165333250432/813717F15F90F799B3DBDE440E1204A5C8F99EE9/

i would consider clipping this climb onto the rock somewhat, its frustratingly easy to get caught on the slanted surface of the rock as you jump up and get caught in a surf for as long as you hold W

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/298734165333250536/0B18A20299085D4D1DCECC056422573FE86EE204/

i really dont like how the area around the 2nd forward spawn is clipped, if you jump off of the door towards the 2nd point you catch your head pretty frequently

edit: 1 more thing

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/298734165333281076/49EFB581FE75F207923223E6F5A2097139D33D10/

pushing this stack of planks back but not moving the clip sort of ruins the soldier mid forward spawn rollout, in the old version of the map you can jump off of those planks and pogo on the roof the the mid shack to the other sides saw entrance, but with the planks pushed back you cant get the same amount of momentum from that first jump

Once more, thanks for these thorough posts, they are obviously golden! I do have some comments this time.

Could you elaborate on what makes this ramp more frustrating? After the recent changes I feel like it plays alright and it somewhat skews the advantage of the ramp toward attackers.

I do agree that the new fence might be a bit too strong as a height advantage. Any suggestion on how I might block spam toward the little window? Is it even desirable?

I'm going to need more input on this. The reason for the change is the all-encompassing "the cracks catch spam" mantra, but I am frankly questioning how far I should take that doctrine. Does every object have to be perfectly smooth? I prefer the old version visually and actually in terms of gameplay (rockets between crates), but I tried this as a solution to remove the cracks without removing the sightline.

Can someone chime in here? The discussion is valid for a lot of places.

I went for a solution where any clip that is likely to affect gameplay often will be smooth. The solution is (as you know) simply a clip brush from the overhang to the ground. This is fine for lower buildings, but on higher ones they start affecting how you interact with the wall on the ground more than they add. In most places I deemed it unlikely that anyone would jump that high, that close to the walls.

I agree that consistency is a virtue, but in this case the solution is too patchy (to me) to be used everywhere. You might be able to convince me with some examples, though!

This is really nice. That kind of perspective doesn't really occur to me naturally as I hardly played soldier on the map so I don't know the rollouts/jump patterns very well. If there's any other spot where jumping might be improved, please tell me!

Cheers,
chojje

Please keep the train how it is now. Being able to shoot rockets between the cracks p much never has a positive effect - it certainly doesn't outweigh the frustration when you shoot in there by accident and you lose all of the damage to the portal to the nether world.

Also re: the ramp on last - if you want to make the last harder to defend passively, just decrease the cap time. There's no need to mess around with props that are clunky to navigate around, just make it easier for the team attacking to play the point and you've got a point that you can't defend by running into spawn for 10s. Or you could make a "room" outside the spawn, basically a set of choke points similar to sunshine last or gully last, which would bunch people up as they fall back or come out of spawn. This will also stop them holding as far back because they'll be sat in a fat choke. Both of these would be better than messing with the ramps and making your nice map all clunky and clumsy.

I contemplated the Gullywash solution but I'm not sure that creating a trap room would be a great idea. I'm worried that it will mostly cause frustration for defenders where they are obstructed as they are retreating. The idea is that if you are as far back as in spawn, you should be too far away from the combat zone to be of any use for a few seconds. The problem which you describe where people simply back into spawn and come back out with full uber might be somewhat redeemed with a tweaked cap time (not by much, mind you).

The reactions to the ramp are very interesting to me. Frankly, the geometry is almost identical bar a slight rotation of the ramp toward the attackers. The gravel pile should make movement around the ramp even smoother. I won't be stubborn about keeping it. Specifically, the aspect of the corridor to the hole on last becoming wider and thus creating a stronger approach for defenders is a valid point. But I disagree that the current solution is any more cluttered in terms of freedom of mobility.

I think the issue with the ramp is that it looks like you should be able to walk up it from the defenders side, but the angle makes it difficult. Perhaps making the props more plainly show how you can get up it?

EDIT: My main point is that this ramp change will change almost nothing about the last, which needs a tweak or two to make it easier to attack. I don't see the ramp having p much any effect, as teams rarely use the ramp during a fight anyway so will be happy to position themselves in the same place as before.

I'm fairly biased with the whole crate thing, I personally really like the idea of being able to shoot through cracks if I can see through them (Crates in this example, boxes on gullywash mid, all sorts of stuff on Gravelpit). My main reasoning for keeping it the same is that Badlands has this feature and since you're using the same prop it only really makes sense to have them play the same. Having the exact same object play differently on different maps is incredibly frustrating. I also prefer how it looks visually but that's not a super huge issue. If you're super worried about splash being eaten (I'd be willing to guess that a large percentage of people who complain about it don't actually know how it works, here is a nice post about it http://tf2maps.net/threads/tip-splash-damage-bug-what-it-is-how-to-avoid-it.20749/) I would focus on adding blockbullet ramps where displacements and brushwork meet.

For Example:

http://puu.sh/nIUYW/5a79f5f64e.jpg

I've had more issues in this one area with splash than the crates on either map in all my playtime.

As for making last a bit easier for attackers, I agree with Sideshow on just adjusting the point capture time. Reworking the left side of last (from defenders POV) does not really seem like it's going to change much of anything and from my discussions with a few friends it seems like it would make it a bit easier to spam the point from farther back when before it was a bit harder to do so. I don't really like the idea of having a "secret" room similar to Gullywash as I think the last is already fairly well laid out and if anything you just need to slightly adjust the captime and potentially respawn time. There was an issue with a much older version of the map where teams would often go for 4 man sacks as the respawn door was much closer (In kitchen opposed to the exit of saw). While I don't think making spawns available THIS quickly would be a good thing I think that allowing teams to be a bit more aggressive in terms of sacks (Slightly shorter respawn waves) would be good since attackers already have a comparatively large amount of ground to cover when going into last as most teams choose to hold farther back. Obviously this would need playtesting but I for sure do not think that reworking an already incredibly solid part of the map is the solution to this problem.

Regarding the roofing issue, what Viaduct did (I think I have not looked at the vmf but I am fairly sure I am correct in this) is to make the actual roof brush a func_brush (set to nonsolid) OR a func_illusionary (Outdated and stuff but works in most cases) and then just clip from the actual wall. This is what I meant when I said Via/Product style roof clipping and sorry if that was confusing as I did not clarify what I actually meant. I think this is a bit of work to set up the first time but once it's done you get the benefit of having the pretty roofs without impeding jumping and I think it's probably the best solution possible (That I am aware of currently). The only issue that really comes with this is when you can stand on the building (Shacks on Snakewater or the little area above tunnels on Via/Product) are a bit awkward to stand on but I personally think it's worth it.

I don't have pictures, but you can get clipped on the barrels in blu lobby and get stuck there, which could make for some really dumb medic deaths

or alternatively you could jump off the side of the spawn door and pogo on the floor
so long as you aren't a mong and can do the jump consistently without hitting your head on the clipping above by the entrance to your saw it's much faster

Just for reference, almost all of this kind of splash areas should be fixed (with blockbullets) as of _u1; this was one of the first things I knew I wanted to do when I updated the map. If you still encounter any splash bugs, please do tell me and I'll be sure to take a look.

As for your comments on respawn times, I will definitely take a look at what can be done. Increasing cap time by ~0.2 seconds, and decreasing spawn time for attackers by 1-2 seconds should be enough to make any other changes unnecessary.

I'll take a look at the Product solution, I suppose it's fine to make the overhangs non-solid as long as it's just on the tops of buildings. When I tried non-solid overhangs in the recent update, it quickly became frustrating.

Ok, here's u4! Hopefully there will be no packing errors this time, if you get visual bugs please tell me and I'll get a new version running.

Download u4: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u4.bsp.bz2

Changelog u4:

Major:
* Ramp at last somewhat reverted
* Increased spawntime reduction when attacking last from 3 to 4 seconds
* Decreased last cap time from 2.3 to 2.1 seconds

Minor:
* Fixed floating chimney
* Changed roof clips for consistency
* Fixed forward spawn roof clipping
* Mirrored some signs for consistency
* Replaced some lighting props
* Fixed some clipping errors
* Fixed missing custom assets
* Fixed roof clipping through ceiling
* Made more doors non solid
* Added some fancy lighting
* Added some fences
* Changed solidity of various props
* Fixed some shadow bugs
* BLU radio tower is now blue!

http://puu.sh/nKwc5/8a3aba4091.jpg

Packing error

http://puu.sh/nKwfI/ac4a26ebf2.jpg

Can get stuck on a lot of stuff around this ramp, I kinda like that you can fit through the little hole even though it will probably never be used outside of super cheesy spy plays. Another potential issue is the grate texture, grates do allow explosions through them and I personally think they're a pretty interesting mechanic but most people do not agree with me on this.

http://puu.sh/nKwj8/61c305919b.jpg

Having the clip brush match up to the fence would make jumping quite a bit nicer here

http://puu.sh/nKwsa/113123a75b.jpg

Ceiling inst clipped on blue side in sawroom

http://puu.sh/nKwzM/9c585807b6.jpg

Packing error

http://puu.sh/nKwAU/bac9e9d4c0.jpg

Packing error

http://puu.sh/nKwNy/293b27024b.jpg

You can see this nodraw when jumping off the wall

I'll probably decompile the map and look for areas that don't have blockbullets later, so far everything looks pretty good. Glad to see that the maps added in the game do have a chance to get updated, hopefully some of the others can get a similar treatment soon.

Updated to u4a to fix packing once and for all.

Download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u4a.bsp.bz2

Changelog u4a:

Fixed small visual bugs
Tweaked some clipping
Finally fixed material packing...

Stickies won't stick to this roof on middle and just roll off (both sides). Didn't notice it anywhere else.
http://i.imgur.com/sTFZ1rW.png
You're doing a brilliant job with this map, keep it up!

Alright, did anyone get to playtesting the current version? It would be great to hear your opinions on the gameplay changes now that most bugs have been fixed.

Specifically, the major gameplay changes are:

* Canopy roofs pulled back around Saw
* Spawn time reduction increased when attacking last
* Capture time of last reduced

Please give me your thoughts on the changes, and hopefully we will see the updated version in the game shortly.

Happy Easter everyone,

Here's a special egg for you, u5 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u5.bsp.bz2

Changelog u5:

* Fixed some visual bugs
* Removed some obstructive detailing
* Fixed displacement seams
* Fixed saw columns not being mirrored
* Fixed some missing overlays
* Fixed stickies not sticking to roofs on mid
* Changed the train crates near 2 again

Hopefully this will be the stable for version for final playtesting before I ship the update to Valve.

It seems that, compared to the version that is currently being used by Valve, this version is darker, especially on mid. It isn't changed by a major amount, but it's noticeable enough that it's a bit uncomfortable to play on because it feels like I can;t see what's in the shadows too well. I would definitely enjoy having the original brightness back, but if it's there for a reason I can deal with it.
Here's the lighting for snakewater_final

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=653221667

and for snakewater_u5

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=653221638

I'm pretty sure he's not doing a full compile, so lighting doesn't look the same. Full compiles take a lot of time...

http://i.imgur.com/4nADrQI.jpg

This looks really wierd.

http://i.imgur.com/ake4oVO.jpg

Why aren't both walls alligned vertically? (The one in the right in comparison to the one on the left)

EDIT: Deleted the first one, it was stupid.

http://puu.sh/nV07p/22b6ffa200.jpg

Seems strange to have the flush ramp on one side but not on the other

http://puu.sh/nUZZg/2d3be4b6eb.jpg

If you're going to do something like this I would just bulletblock the gaps and call it a day, the net looks really strange, once again I would personally say just to keep it the same as badlands but it's up to you and most people seem to be super angry about cracks.

http://puu.sh/nV0Et/0069b962d4.jpg

Can get stuck in this corner. Also it seems that the stair model isn't flush with the floor so that could cause some splash issue, would suggest just making it nonsolid and then using blockbullets to make a ramp right there going flush with the floor.

http://puu.sh/nV0Nc/36ee8be16a.jpg

Final plead to revert this to what it was in the stock version, while personally I like the grate I feel like it would cause a lot of weird gameplay problems, being able to kind of deny people from going on the ramp with spam from the point is pretty weird and I know a lot of people are not exactly fans of the whole "explosions go through grates" mechanic. Also there's a lot of stuff you can get caught on underneath the ramp that would make going through that hole even more annoying than it already is.

Will update this post later since I didn't have a ton of time to go over the map.

Ahhh ok, was not aware of that. Thanks for letting me know!

Why can't you connect the flatcar crates on top to create a flat surface, but keep the gaps for spam? That would prevent the gaps from swallowing rockets fired downward from bombs, but allow horizontal spam rockets to pass through. Instead of mesh, you could lay a thin piece of sheet metal on top to make it visually apparent that the crates work differently from those on Badlands. Or you could change the prop on the flatcar to something more fitting for this shape, like piles of lumber.

http://i.imgur.com/YjwBve0.jpg

Similar to what nite said, some of the _u5 clipbrushes get in the way of rocket jumping. Having to stand farther away from the detonation both reduces momentum and makes it harder to judge your rocket jumps. Since making the Shack overhangs nonsolid proved unpopular, could the eaves be removed altogether, like the Shack on cp_reckoner_b1a? (Sorry for bad picture.)

http://i.imgur.com/dRz8vSv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jeX8hK4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ny2Wiph.jpg

There's a clipbrush here, too. In my opinion, it doesn't matter for rocket jumping. I have never seen anyone jump off this wall. It doesn't help you get anywhere and it would be a left-handed jump anyway. It's nice to have the clipbrush for Scouts though, as they will no longer get caught on that overhang.

http://i.imgur.com/35Opiig.jpg

On the subject of clipbrushes, the ones on the Right Roof of Mid are really far in for no apparent reason. This makes it almost impossible to rocket jump off that wall. I don't know if this was intended, since this has been around since _final1, and it prevents a fast bomb onto the enemy Saw.

http://i.imgur.com/SlYfYrc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/80AhCEW.jpg

The stairs in Kitchen are floating at the lower end, the same as in _final1.

http://i.imgur.com/LgSkr4v.jpg

Edit: the walls at the Top Left and Top Right of Mid are different heights from each other. If you're going for a super-high bomb from the Right Roof, RED team has a taller wall to jump off.

http://i.imgur.com/d3IA3nO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0cgsI7J.jpg

Small thing not present on red side, Small enough I wasn't sure if someone else would notice.

http://i.imgur.com/m1IjEbq.jpg