I don't really know how much of a discussion this can be because it's just true... There's always going to limit on how much anyone can improve at anything. I don't really think there's any room for disagreement. If you're naturally not very coordinated you'll have a much harder time improving compared to someone who is naturally more coordinated, even in TF2. At a certain point you might not be able to reach the level that they can. That's why team sports and esports are so deep, because everyone can find their niche within a team and work to their own strengths, whether those strengths be aiming, calling, strategizing, or even keeping spirits up.

There's a "skill ceiling" for everyone. That's why it's most important to play and gather as much experience as possible, because experience will always augment your natural ability and can let you vastly outplay someone with less experience and more natural ability.

I respectfully disagree with clockwork. I think any genetic advantage someone might posses for something like tf2 is negligible even at the highest level of play. I don't think there is any innate talent involved that defines a skill celling for you so to speak. The people who are the very best at something are just the very best are refining their skills and finding the best ways to improve (whether they know it or not).

I think anyone (as long as they're healthy and not somehow handicapped by something out of their control) can become as good as the best tf2 player there is (and better even seeing as there shouldn't be a limit of how good you can be at something).

I could be wrong but I don't believe that in humanity's history there has been any case where we reached some sort of an upper limit in a field. People always constantly improve. The same can be observed for tf2, if you watch players from not too long ago, from 2014 for example, you'll see that they suck compared to now.

in my opinion any retard can grind in a video game and become really good. that isn't to say natural talent in video games isn't a thing. some people improve way quicker than others but high level players don't really have anything that nobody else can achieve other than lots of practice and a decent PC setup.

meanwhile in real sports you have actual physical limitations that cannot be changed such as your: height, limb ratios, fast twitch/slow twitch muscle fiber ratio, your bodies response to training and diet, and a shit ton of other genetic factors

im gonna stop u right there

ur wrong

I'm not sure how relevant it is but, it's definitely the case that some people just don't naturally possess the right innate mindset to improve, you could say that having the right outlook is a natural talent.

in some cases you could definitely argue that a given persons psyche may prevent them from taking part in a team properly to improve- for instance, a player that is too wrapped up in his own personal achievement to care about team demo reviews and how to improve as a team, caring more about how much DPM he had and how many airshots he hit, is bound to have a harder time improving his non-dm play. Conversely someone with less motivation to be good will be overtaken by people striving to improve.

Simply, your best might not be as good as b4nnys best kappa

I'm gonna say that genetic disposition or talent IS a factor, but it's not as big of a thing as people tend to think, at least in videogames.

Like, sure, if you've got Parkinson's disease you're not going to be able to aim as well as clockwork, but I think that putting hard work is the most important factor; someone with a natural talent who does jack shit practice will usually be worse than someone who has no predisposition but actually practices.

Using Counter Strike for example: I'm going to say that I am probably more naturally disposed to be able to aim well in an FPS game than handi, due to my articulated wrists and fingers and such. But handi would beat me 100 times out of 100 because he's put in a shit-ton of work to be as good as he has and I've got like 7 hours in Counter Strike in total.

I don't think you can make that argument at all, and it's wishful thinking to believe it.

There are real genetic differences between people's reaction times, intelligence, logical thinking, etc. Even if you discard all of the genetic differences, your entire wealth of personal experience before you picked up TF2 already mapped out how you'll mentally approach the game and how you approach the process of learning and improving.

There is obviously innate talent in people that defines a skill ceiling - look, for example, at the people who DO train as hard in sports, or practise madly in esports, and still fail. They might even train and play better, analyse the game better, but still lose. The same can be applied to sports, where athletes train all their lives in identical conditions and can lose out to training partners or w/e who have better natural ability.

Work and the refinement you achieve hones your natural ability and brings it close to your personal ceiling, but you don't have the ability to be the next Usain Bolt if you just try hard enough. And to genuinely tell people they do is disingenuous and very hard to believe.

In terms of TF2, most people I think should be able to achieve an Invite level or w/e reasonable level you want to set. There's a small playerbase and it's not that hard even if you have little natural talent.

Also your final point is largely bull too; loads of players have not improved since 2014, or are just as good as they were, or have gotten worse, even if some are better. Also, just because some people improve over time (duh) doesn't mean everybody can improve infinitely until they're the best.

the physical advantages/disadvantages you can have in respect to gaming have to be pretty minimal don't they? i mean, there's reaction time and psychological traits like concentration and memory, but all in all there's not a lot of physical requisites.
whatever your immediate weaknesses are can be drastically improved through grinding them out.

I can personally say from experience that there are definitely factors that limit people in their ability to play tf2/ other video games.

I used to have to take significant amounts of antihistamines because of some stupid medical issues. For those that may not know, antihistamines block histamines which cause symptoms in allergies. The side effects include drowsiness and general confusion.

My reaction times suffered greatly and as a result, I couldn't really play tf2 (or any fast paced games) well. I have some really old vods of me streaming tf2 and it's pretty hilarious to see how slow I was to do literally anything. This lasted up through early 2014, when I was able to wane off of the drugs as my symptoms disappeared (and immediately started progressing rapidly faster through divisions/ general skill). I still get spikes of these things and have to take some benadryl infrequently, and when I do I definitely notice a difference in my ability to aim, call, and react. If you ever see me doing absolutely shitty in game, this is (probably lol) why.

As someone who has played in two different mental "states", I can confidently say that it makes a difference. Some people with a naturally slow reaction time or someone who has fine/gross motor issues will definitely be at a disadvantage in a game involving so much DM and movement mechanics, and people that don't agree haven't really put much thought into it.

I should have made my point about tf2 players improving clearer. I meant teams at the highest levels of play in general not specific players(top play at i49 compared to i55 for example). Otherwise of course some players stay at their level or decline over time.

that's not what the thread is about though

I think one person can be as good as the next but some people are going to have to work harder for the same goals.

Teams at the highest levels of play have already proven themselves to be outliers. There have been many people who have worked very hard to become a top 3 player on any given class and have not made it. Obviously, a player who has made it is more easily distinguished from another player by his roles on teams, the skill of his teammates, the way his teammates use him, whichever style of play is more applicable to the current meta, etc. It could be true that in video games it's negligible as long as you put in an infinite amount (or close) into it. However, for the purposes of realistic discussion, if someone has to put in even 10x the amount of time I've had to put into the game, it's safe to say that he/she isn't going to be a top player. But for what it's worth, I don't even think that's how it works.

I don't know that people straight up have caps, but the rate of improvement people see can drastically slow once they hit a certain level. In any activity imo you can constantly be improving but for some people there's natural talent that allows them to improve significantly faster and can start them on a higher base level. I don't think a player with less talent who tries really hard can never catch up with someone who has lots of talent and never tries at all, but assuming the talented player puts a slight amount of effort in they can probably make it so the worse player never catches up at all. Most of the players in tf2 who haven't improved in years or who've gotten worse tend not to be putting constructive practice into the game or have some sort of psychological issue around playing where they psych themselves out and it stops them from getting better.

I hadn't heard of handi before this thread so I looked him up and wow huge respect to that dude, he's incredible for a dude with no arms or legs

as someone whose played at an elite level in rugby, I can firmly say that in any sport/eSport you need to be gifted and work hard to get better.

Never played with another fellow international teammate who was simply gifted, or simply talented, both are required to compete at the highest level of play and that's why the skill ceiling for high level play in anything is a low % of the total pool of players. Not everyone can achieve both of these things, I've played with some really really hard working rugby players in my life but they will never be remotely as good as some people if they don't have the natural skills to go along with it, and this most DEFINITELY applies to video games as well.

As clockwork stated before, some people are gifted in certain ways that aren't necessarily as valuable overall, but they can fill specific roles or niches that a team needs in very specific situations, but true star players in spots and in games are 100% naturally gifted and hard working.

That being said, natural talent can only take you so far, something I learned through my time playing international level rugby too, there comes a time where there will ALWAYS be someone that wants it more than you do, and they are the superior talent.

In TF2, as with e-sports something that is key is your hardware's performance, I don't see how a player can compete right at the top (for a team competing for 1st) without having a computer performing at it's peak. Biggest improvement I made as a player was upgrading hardware, I played right up to being in Div 1 on a 60hz monitor with 120 fps, only when I improved my hardware I was able to step up another level.

As for improvement well, I think it's hard to argue against clockwork, we all have our potential limits, as he says it's best to gain experience and bring more to your team, a well balanced side is one that has a good atmosphere, good team spirit, some leaders (I never known a successful side without good leaders/characters in it), somebody who can pick your team up. That is how I try to play the game, that is how so many perceived "average" players like myself (though it is true, I am average) can play at higher levels with better players.

how dedicated u r to improving is also genetic free will doesnt existxd

the idea of "being gifted" within the context of mental competition like videogames basically boils down to "they figured out how to learn and adapt efficiently". you can lift the same weights over and over and gain physical advantages doing so, but if you want to enter a powerlifting competition you eventually need to go higher

I always throw out M2K when talking about this; if you ever saw that dude when he started melee, he was a total joke, but eventually he grew and cultivated a lot of that raw, natural talent required. what happened in-between '04 M2K and '16 M2K is a huge change of his mindset that he still struggles with to this day, though, and I think that's why people's first response is always "you either have it or you don't".

it's never impossible on a technical basis, no, but when you consider how difficult it is to rework how you handle everything even in a best-case scenario, it might as well be for people who don't intent to dedicate huge amounts of life to competitive