"Matchmaking will fail"

#31

toads_tf

1 Frags – +

speedymy name is Muselk top competitive player and reliable source for all comp related things....

robtheaustralian

[quote=speedy]my name is Muselk top competitive player and reliable source for all comp related things....[/quote]
robtheaustralian

#32

nyk

-13 Frags – +

i think its hilarious u kids talking *** about muselk. u wouldnt say this *** to him at LAN, hes JACKED. not only that but he gets 20 killstreaks in pubs, can perform various trickstabs and once hit an airpipe. yall are pathetic lol

#33

trash

-13 Frags – +

nyki think its hilarious u kids talking *** about muselk. u wouldnt say this *** to him at LAN, hes JACKED. not only that but he gets 20 killstreaks in pubs, can perform various trickstabs and once hit an airpipe. yall are pathetic lol

I'm aware that this is out of irony but I'm cringing heavily regardless

[quote=nyk]i think its hilarious u kids talking *** about muselk. u wouldnt say this *** to him at LAN, hes JACKED. not only that but he gets 20 killstreaks in pubs, can perform various trickstabs and once hit an airpipe. yall are pathetic lol[/quote]
I'm aware that this is out of irony but I'm cringing heavily regardless

#34

Huck

34 Frags – +

http://i.imgur.com/NyIVzGw.png

[img]http://i.imgur.com/NyIVzGw.png[/img]

#35

Golden111

3 Frags – +

Muselk? Why would you listen to ANYTHING he says about tf2?

#36

bl4nk

-15 Frags – +

I like how people just mention melee as if they were around and followed the scene of that game back then or as if it the circumstances that allowed melee's resurgence can be replicated with tf2. I followed melee religiously from 06-14 but don't wanna bother typing a nerd essay as to why this won't happen with tf2.

#37

trash

36 Frags – +

bl4nkI like how people just mention melee as if they were around and followed the scene of that game back then or as if it the circumstances that allowed melee's resurgence can be replicated with tf2. I followed melee religiously from 06-14 but don't wanna bother typing a nerd essay as to why this won't happen with tf2.

I was the one person that mentioned it, and I was around back then, because I remember arguing with shitheads who thought trying to win the EVO drive was a lost cause

scenes can succeed if people actually give a shit, this cynical mindset that you've already lost will kill the game harder than anything else ever could

[quote=bl4nk]I like how people just mention melee as if they were around and followed the scene of that game back then or as if it the circumstances that allowed melee's resurgence can be replicated with tf2. I followed melee religiously from 06-14 but don't wanna bother typing a nerd essay as to why this won't happen with tf2.[/quote]
I was the one person that mentioned it, and I was around back then, because I remember arguing with shitheads who thought trying to win the EVO drive was a lost cause

scenes can succeed if people actually give a shit, this cynical mindset that you've already lost will kill the game harder than anything else ever could

#38

kellen

12 Frags – +

why would he denounce the game that gives him his income

actual dummy head

why would he denounce the game that gives him his income

actual dummy head

#39

toads_tf

27 Frags – +

kellenwhy would he denounce the game that gives him his income

actual dummy head

because soon overwatch will be the game that gives him his income, as interest in tf2 will switch from casual to competitive and his channel is all about casual.

[quote=kellen]why would he denounce the game that gives him his income

actual dummy head[/quote]
because soon overwatch will be the game that gives him his income, as interest in tf2 will switch from casual to competitive and his channel is all about casual.

#40

Karl

17 Frags – +

before Valve added skins and started funding majors csgo had fewer players than tf2...

#41

Radman

6 Frags – +

r/tf2 is absolutely more hardcore than the majority of the tf2 crowd. The fact that some people think that's something to laugh at is really telling.

#42

trash

0 Frags – +

I mean, if you want to argue /r/tf2 opinion, I should point out that the counterargument is double what muselk's argument currently was in votes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/4ol7uw/simple_point_by_point_response_to_upointyhatman_s/

I mean, if you want to argue /r/tf2 opinion, I should point out that the counterargument is double what muselk's argument currently was in votes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/4ol7uw/simple_point_by_point_response_to_upointyhatman_s/

#43

youngun

13 Frags – +

didn't muselk get cut from his div 6 team way back in the day?

#44

Skele_Knight

7 Frags – +

youngundidn't muselk get cut from his div 6 team way back in the day?

ye he did lol

[quote=youngun]didn't muselk get cut from his div 6 team way back in the day?[/quote]

ye he did lol

#45

mathsad

13 Frags – +

i made a short blog post about this just to get it off my chest. most likely i've repeated what others have said, but i hope it's informative for some people. also sorry if i fuck up anything, this was more of an "in the moment" thing.

i made a [url=http://www.mathsad.com/a-response/]short blog post[/url] about this just to get it off my chest. most likely i've repeated what others have said, but i hope it's informative for some people. also sorry if i fuck up anything, this was more of an "in the moment" thing.

#46

cookie

3 Frags – +

Only reason why I stopped is because there's no dx8... Common valve!

#47

aiera

2 Frags – +

trashremember, if you don't already have a massive competitive fanbase, you're guaranteed to always lose. just look at super smash brothers melee, 12 years in and they get into a major tournament? pffft, like that'll ever go anywhere

are you ignorant or just pretending that they weren't in mlg (and even in earlier evos)

smashwikiMelee was added to the circuits of MLG in 2004; it was retired in 2007smashwikiEVO 2007 was the 6th edition of the Evolution Championship Series, a fighting game tournament held annually in Las Vegas, Nevada, which took place on August 24th-26th, 2007, at the Green Valley Ranch. It was the final tournament of the EVO 2007 circuit, which consisted of EVO South, EVO North, EVO West, and EVO East. The top 8 finishers for each of the previous events were automatically qualified for the bracket round at EVO World.[1] It was the largest Melee tournament before the international release of Brawl with 270 players in attendance.

also when melee was small when esports in general were small where as now that esports are bigger melee is bigger (where as tf2 has gone almost no where in the past 3 years)

This is not to say that tf2 won't ever have a higher competitive scene but the melee argument is just wrong at its core.

[quote=trash]remember, if you don't already have a massive competitive fanbase, you're guaranteed to always lose. just look at super smash brothers melee, 12 years in and they get into a major tournament? [url=http://www.ssbwiki.com/EVO_2013]pffft, like that'll ever go anywhere[/url][/quote]
are you ignorant or just pretending that they weren't in mlg (and even in earlier evos)
[quote=smashwiki]Melee was added to the circuits of MLG in 2004; it was retired in 2007[/quote]
[quote=smashwiki]EVO 2007 was the 6th edition of the Evolution Championship Series, a fighting game tournament held annually in Las Vegas, Nevada, which took place on August 24th-26th, 2007, at the Green Valley Ranch. It was the final tournament of the EVO 2007 circuit, which consisted of EVO South, EVO North, EVO West, and EVO East. The top 8 finishers for each of the previous events were automatically qualified for the bracket round at EVO World.[1] It was the largest Melee tournament before the international release of Brawl with 270 players in attendance.[/quote]
also when melee was small when esports in general were small where as now that esports are bigger melee is bigger (where as tf2 has gone almost no where in the past 3 years)

This is not to say that tf2 won't ever have a higher competitive scene but the melee argument is just wrong at its core.

#48

sombrez

1 Frags – +

Didn't b4nny say that the new update will bring the casual and competitive parts of the community together? He tweeted it, but I can't find it anymore.

#49

youngun

16 Frags – +

sombrezDidn't b4nny say that the new update will bring the casual and competitive parts of the community together? He tweeted it, but I can't find it anymore.

I mean that's the point of matchmaking

[quote=sombrez]Didn't b4nny say that the new update will bring the casual and competitive parts of the community together? He tweeted it, but I can't find it anymore.[/quote]
I mean that's the point of matchmaking

#50

mousiope

2 Frags – +

hotdotit's almost like he thinks mm is meant for current tf2 players and not to make tf2 look attractive to players who have yet to play tf2. It's almost like he believes his opinion holds weight and in fact it only does to other people of his kind (mentally challenged users of reddit). It's almost like he forgot that mm beta requires you to be a 4 year old premium user of tf2 and nobody wants to play it cause beta is bad right now.

he's just spewing bullshit to justify playing overwatch

even though i agree with you 100%, i also agree with the reddit post that mentions he should be more responsible with opinions like this
like it or not he has a massive tf2 fanbase and he´s a very influential person to these people, even though i agree with him, sharing opinions like this wont help the game at all
i played this game for five years and never knew what a cheat was or lmaobox was till the day one of these popular tf2 youtubers decided to make a video about it, from that day forward everytime i joined a freaking pub it was lmaobox this lmaobox that, esp this, esp that, till this day
most of the tf2 players are really casual players and the only insight they get of this game is from these youtubers
these dudes opinions (like it or not) matter

[quote=hotdot]it's almost like he thinks mm is meant for current tf2 players and not to make tf2 look attractive to players who have yet to play tf2. It's almost like he believes his opinion holds weight and in fact it only does to other people of his kind (mentally challenged users of reddit). It's almost like he forgot that mm beta requires you to be a 4 year old premium user of tf2 and nobody wants to play it cause beta is bad right now.

he's just spewing bullshit to justify playing overwatch[/quote]

even though i agree with you 100%, i also agree with the reddit post that mentions he should be more responsible with opinions like this
like it or not he has a massive tf2 fanbase and he´s a very influential person to these people, even though i agree with him, sharing opinions like this wont help the game at all
i played this game for five years and never knew what a cheat was or lmaobox was till the day one of these popular tf2 youtubers decided to make a video about it, from that day forward everytime i joined a freaking pub it was lmaobox this lmaobox that, esp this, esp that, till this day
most of the tf2 players are really casual players and the only insight they get of this game is from these youtubers
these dudes opinions (like it or not) matter

#51

sombrez

4 Frags – +

MuselkLets look at CSGO as an example. They have ~500,000 people playing at any one time.

http://i.imgur.com/gxkcjeE.jpg?1

Doesn't look like 500,000 to me

[quote=Muselk]Lets look at CSGO as an example. They have ~500,000 people playing at any one time.[/quote]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/gxkcjeE.jpg?1[/img]

Doesn't look like 500,000 to me

#52

aim-

-5 Frags – +

trashsmash

i think that playing with a gamecube controller looks better than playing with a keyboard and mouse

[quote=trash]smash[/quote]
i think that playing with a gamecube controller looks better than playing with a keyboard and mouse

#53

Magikarp

13 Frags – +

sombrezMuselkLets look at CSGO as an example. They have ~500,000 people playing at any one time.
picture

Doesn't look like 500,000 to me

Think he was mainly referring to this: http://store.steampowered.com/stats
Which shows the "peak" at over 500k, it definitely did get to that point multiple times daily.

But yeah, one of the best arguments to this is Melee. I believe this is one of the quotes that was associated with it in the documentary: "This is about a game that was never designed to be played at a competitive level".
The same can easily go for TF2 which was built to be casual at first. The difference is that Valve isn't neglecting the comp TF2 scene as much as Nintendo did. Valve has shown their responses and cooperation and is even working towards giving us the competitive matchmaking function after the game has been out for almost 10 years.

The most important thing in order for this to work out, just like Melee, is the dedication. The passion, the devotion, you name it whatever you want but it's what kept Melee going. The Melee community were dedicated and kept it going despite the odds. They loved their game for what it was and had to offer. The same applies to us, for we have played for years also and continue to do so for the game that we love.

In the end, does it really matter if it is a failure or not? As the Melee and comp TF2 scene has ALREADY proven WITHOUT matchmaking, as long as there are people that want to keep playing and the tournaments/leagues available, we'll stay strong. So what if we are not as big as a couple of other games? There are games that have fallen out of the eSports line but people still(no matter how little) still play/played. Quake is a good example of this, sure it was never meant for the casual gamer and is hard to get into for most, but the community kept with their pugs, inhouses, tournaments, and whatnot. But they did it for their love of the game. If we do end up on the same scale as Quake, then so be it, we did it while loving what we did.

Fuck Muselk.

[quote=sombrez][quote=Muselk]Lets look at CSGO as an example. They have ~500,000 people playing at any one time.[/quote]

picture

Doesn't look like 500,000 to me[/quote]
Think he was mainly referring to this: http://store.steampowered.com/stats
Which shows the "peak" at over 500k, it definitely did get to that point multiple times daily.

But yeah, one of the best arguments to this is Melee. I believe this is one of the quotes that was associated with it in the documentary: "This is about a game that was never designed to be played at a competitive level".
The same can easily go for TF2 which was built to be casual at first. The difference is that Valve isn't neglecting the comp TF2 scene as much as Nintendo did. Valve has shown their responses and cooperation and is even working towards giving us the competitive matchmaking function after the game has been out for almost 10 years.

The most important thing in order for this to work out, just like Melee, is the dedication. The passion, the devotion, you name it whatever you want but it's what kept Melee going. The Melee community were dedicated and kept it going despite the odds. They loved their game for what it was and had to offer. The same applies to us, for we have played for years also and continue to do so for the game that we love.

In the end, does it really matter if it is a failure or not? As the Melee and comp TF2 scene has ALREADY proven WITHOUT matchmaking, as long as there are people that want to keep playing and the tournaments/leagues available, we'll stay strong. So what if we are not as big as a couple of other games? There are games that have fallen out of the eSports line but people still(no matter how little) still play/played. Quake is a good example of this, sure it was never meant for the casual gamer and is hard to get into for most, but the community kept with their pugs, inhouses, tournaments, and whatnot. But they did it for their love of the game. If we do end up on the same scale as Quake, then so be it, we did it while loving what we did.

Fuck Muselk.

#54

trash

2 Frags – +

aieraare you ignorant or just pretending that they weren't in mlg (and even in earlier evos)

those tournaments were literally one-third of the size if not smaller. you can get a 270-man tournament with a snap of the fingers and a decent prize number in 2016. even if there was this sudden up-and-down that's as extreme as you imply, it's still wildly missing the point; in 2013 people went to huge lengths to make melee into something huge (scar leading streams into the EVO donation drive, and travis spending all of his time to make the smash brothers documentary, to name a few), and while you can argue that didn't guarantee it, at the end of the day that effort still made sure it had a chance

if the counterpoints that are being made regarding "scenes succeed because people involved actually care" can only be "well sometimes the example isn't 100% like our situation!", then my point remains

[quote=aiera]are you ignorant or just pretending that they weren't in mlg (and even in earlier evos)[/quote]
those tournaments were literally one-third of the size if not smaller. you can get a 270-man tournament with a snap of the fingers and a decent prize number in 2016. even if there was this sudden up-and-down that's as extreme as you imply, it's still wildly missing the point; in 2013 people went to huge lengths to make melee into something huge (scar leading streams into the EVO donation drive, and travis spending all of his time to make the smash brothers documentary, to name a few), and while you can argue that didn't guarantee it, at the end of the day that effort still made sure it had a chance

if the counterpoints that are being made regarding "scenes succeed because people involved actually care" can only be "well sometimes the example isn't 100% like our situation!", then my point remains

#55

trippa

22 Frags – +

I'd just like to say something real quick. Here are CS:GO player stats from when the scene started to take off:

http://i.imgur.com/BUBCYkk.jpg

Notice that in November 2013, the game had already been out for several months, and had roughly stagnated at an average of 29,000 players. For reference, TF2 has been steady at 50,000 average for a while now (yes, even after Overwatch). The first spike in playerbase in December 2013 came with the first Valve-sponsored major, Dreamhack Winter 2013. From then on, the playerbase steadily grew with spikes every 3-4 months with each passing major.

A valve-sponsored tournament would go farther than anything else when it comes to growing TF2. I'm not sure if it will ever happen, but if it does the scene will become larger and stronger than ever.

I'd just like to say something real quick. Here are CS:GO player stats from when the scene started to take off:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/BUBCYkk.jpg[/img]

Notice that in November 2013, the game had already been out for several months, and had roughly stagnated at an average of 29,000 players. For reference, TF2 has been steady at 50,000 average for a while now (yes, even after Overwatch). The first spike in playerbase in December 2013 came with the first Valve-sponsored major, Dreamhack Winter 2013. From then on, the playerbase steadily grew with spikes every 3-4 months with each passing major.

A valve-sponsored tournament would go farther than anything else when it comes to growing TF2. I'm not sure if it will ever happen, but if it does the scene will become larger and stronger than ever.

#56

mousiope

-11 Frags – +

why are you guys comparing a new game that just came out at the time and was starting to grow with a game thats been out for 10 years ?

#57

trippa

17 Frags – +

mousiopewhy are you guys comparing a new game that just came out at the time and was starting to grow with a game thats been out for 10 years ?

the game had been out for a year already and was registering only minor growth until the major

[quote=mousiope]why are you guys comparing a new game that just came out at the time and was starting to grow with a game thats been out for 10 years ?[/quote]

the game had been out for a year already and was registering only minor growth until the major

#58

aiera

-8 Frags – +

trash

Numbers mean literally nothing when you are comparing numbers when esports were barely a thing to 2013

What I showed was that the BIGGEST and mostly WIDELY RESPECTED fighting game tournament IN THE WORLD accepted melee into their roster (ie mainstream support) and one of the biggest esports orgs at the time (mlg) also did. where tf2 has only seen it's first big event at dreamhack coming up, and it's not even international like EVO.

[quote=trash][/quote]
Numbers mean literally nothing when you are comparing numbers when esports were barely a thing to 2013

What I showed was that the BIGGEST and mostly WIDELY RESPECTED fighting game tournament IN THE WORLD accepted melee into their roster (ie mainstream support) and one of the biggest esports orgs at the time (mlg) also did. where tf2 has only seen it's first big event at dreamhack coming up, and it's not even international like EVO.

#59

mathsad

11 Frags – +

mousiopewhy are you guys comparing a new game that just came out at the time and was starting to grow with a game thats been out for 10 years ?

because csgo was panned on launch and 1.6 and source (separately) had more players than csgo a few weeks after it launched. that changed when valve dropped some gigantic updates for the game.

[quote=mousiope]why are you guys comparing a new game that just came out at the time and was starting to grow with a game thats been out for 10 years ?[/quote]
because csgo was panned on launch and 1.6 and source (separately) had more players than csgo a few weeks after it launched. that changed when valve dropped some gigantic updates for the game.

#60

trash

1 Frags – +

aieraNumbers mean literally nothing when you are comparing numbers when esports were barely a thing to 2013

What I showed was that the BIGGEST and mostly WIDELY RESPECTED fighting game tournament IN THE WORLD accepted melee into their roster (ie mainstream support) and one of the biggest esports orgs at the time (mlg) also did. where tf2 has only seen it's first big event at dreamhack coming up, and it's not even international like EVO.

again, wildly missing the point. I already said this, it's not a guarantee of success, it's the bare minimum requirement that you need to give a shit. competitive TF2, for the longest time, refused to give a shit, and it bit them in the ass to the point where if matchmaking wasn't announced last year, it very likely would've been done for good

[quote=aiera]Numbers mean literally nothing when you are comparing numbers when esports were barely a thing to 2013

What I showed was that the BIGGEST and mostly WIDELY RESPECTED fighting game tournament IN THE WORLD accepted melee into their roster (ie mainstream support) and one of the biggest esports orgs at the time (mlg) also did. where tf2 has only seen it's first big event at dreamhack coming up, and it's not even international like EVO.[/quote]

again, wildly missing the point. I already said this, it's not a guarantee of success, it's the [i]bare minimum requirement[/i] that you need to give a shit. competitive TF2, for the longest time, refused to give a shit, and it bit them in the ass to the point where if matchmaking wasn't announced last year, it very likely would've been done for good