its not about people asking about weapons on streams it's about skins

valve will never, ever, EVER touch anything that is their primary revenue stream. I'm guessing the people in management already regret allowing hidden viewmodels in the first place.

you can bet if enough people downloaded and used the hat hiding script they would spend developer time prioritized over everything else to get rid of that as well

if tf2 were remade today, it would not even be an option. there is an economic reality to this, valve is a company that makes money first and foremost.

As I said in another thread, the min viewmodels are so silly and irregular. They fix the issue of not covering your entire screen, but they are not even real viewmodels. The fact that they cover your screen in the first place should've been revised ages ago.

It blows my mind how people can possibly deem the min viewmodels worthy of being the "official" viewmodels. It actually says so much about tf2's dev team that they think their current viewmodels (min and normal) are polished enough to be required to use, and on top of that, to limit the maximum to 54 shows just as much about them.

And those streamers can answer them. I could be wrong, but I don't think people join TF2 streams and go "wow I can't see a weapon model this game is shit bye."

Even if visible viewmodels is such a big deal for new players, popular streamers could just enable them. There's no reason to punish the rest of the player base for the sake of a few easily confused people new to FPS games.

In fact if we look at them from a purely competitive point of view, both viewmodels are awful and don't deserve to exist on earth.
But I think we should start to stop just calling out valve and
blaming them for whatever they do. Let's try to be a bit more positive about new changes, I'm sure that with time things will get better. (But don't get me wrong, to be completely honest i fucking hate how viewmodels have been changed, I'm just glad they at least gave us an option)

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I want everything with viewmodels to be unlocked.

Constructive criticism towards an update is significantly more helpful than just being positive about changes, although kneejerk reactions that "new update is shit" aren't helpful at all and people should be willing to try and roll with and test changes initially before deeming them to be bad.
Criticism of valve for locking viewmodels is entirely legitimate particularly when there are a fair number of people even in just this thread saying that it gives them nausea which actually straight up prevents people from playing the game as opposed to a hypothetical where players find the option confusing.

I agree, but we also have to consider that right now valve should focus more on improving mm queues, solving the cheaters problem (theres a whole thread about this), optimizing and improving the game's performance and making the whole mm experience more enjoyable.
Viewmodel customization is without a doubt something we can't give up on, but at the same time AT THE MOMENT it shouldn't be dev's priority.

default is fov_desired 75 and viewmodel_fov 54. the max fov_desired is 90, so the max viewmodel_fov should be 64.8; 70 (not 90+) is a round number, reasonably close to 64.8, was already the max slider value, and looks decent/has few graphical glitches, so 70 should probably be the max.

min viewmodels look pretty bad for some weapons, but worse yet, they don't accurately depict where projectiles come from (same with adjustable viewmodels).

we've been blessed, maybe spoiled, to have the astounding customization options we've had (huds, viewmodels, graphics configs), but these are not the features that will attract players and viewers. things like skins, standardizations and a level of polish are all necessary for the competitive scene to grow, but that entails some sacrifices.

I don't think that confusing new players is really a valid reason, when the only time that they'll see viewmodels off is on players stream and it's quite simple to just answer them or make a !heywhycantiseeyourgunstreamer nightbot command. In my mind the argument of it being about skins also doesn't make sense, considering you hardly ever seen your own hats, and things like cl_hud_playerclass_use_playermodel aren't forced in matchmaking

It should all be unlocked. Not for any political reason but because freedom to customize is beautiful.

That being said I think min_viewmodels are alright, I don't care if they depict where the projectile come from as long as they are out of the way.

If they want to keep viewmodels on in mm at least let us customize the viewmodel fov.

hello, i play tf2 at 640x480 resolution stretched at a 19" screen, regardless of me using either viewmodel_fov 54 or the mini viewmodel it obscures my vision like an eyepatch, would be great to either have them transparent, or being able to remove them completely like ive been doing this for the past two years

I want unlocked viewmodel settings in MM because i dont want my scripts to be useless :(

In the case of viewmodels, there are 3 main concerns:

• Viewmodels can't cover up half our screen, especially a few unlocks are ridiculous
  -fixed by high viewmodel_fov value
  -fixed by no viewmodels
  -fixed by min. viewmodels
  
• Viewmodels need to represent where projectile are being shot from
  -fixed by high viewmodel_fov value
  -fixed by no viewmodels, since players can focus on aiming with their crosshair without being distracted by the viewmodel
  -this is where min. viewmodels fail, they have nothing to do with where projectiles are being fired from, while i personally can't just "ignore" that they're there and focus on my crosshair
  
• Viewmodels need to be spectator and noob friendly
  -fixed by high viewmodel_fov value, it's still easy to recognise weapons, yet they look wonky don't look attractive
  -this is valve's big issue with no viewmodels (in addition to weapon skin revenue)
  -fixed by min. viewmodels, even though some weapons look wonky

On top of that, as stated above some of the min. viewmodels look ridiculous, how is this less confusing than no viewmodels, to me it looks like a sniper rifle:

Nethertheless, for most hitscan and melee weapons the min. viewmodels look great, don't cover up the screen and concern #2 doesn't apply. See examples below:

For me personally, when i started out and mained demo i used viewmodels for the stickies, since i aimed with it, while i didn't for use it for pipes. Later on i switched to no viewmodels and have been playing like that up until now, when today i decided to play a few pugs with them on. Took me about 10 minutes, but it was easy to get used to playing soldier with viewmodel_fov 90. Though when i play matchmaking, the minimized rl viewmodel irritates me so much that i have troubles aiming, while not using would mean i have a viewmodel_fov 54 rl up against my face.

SKIP TO HERE FOR TL;DR --> For me as a comp player min. viewmodels don't do the trick, i'm all for higher viewmodel fovs and fixing their looks or living with the fact they look bad. I think we need to accept that no viewmodels in comp won't ever happen though.

Off-topic: Next to viewmodels in mm Valve have other big problems to tackle in TF2, not only do they need to fix the queue for mm, they also need to rework the default hud (especially if they're worried about TF2's visual appeal with viewmodels) since it looks like 2007 and is also not practical (important information very small, dmg numbers not noticeable, though huge unnecessary grey bars at the top & bottom of the deathscreen) or implement some popular custom huds as offical "themes" to select. Additionally the game options need to be cleaned up, there are pyrovision & trade request options in the same cathegory as hitsounds, hud options and recording features, so it's hard to navigate as a normal player and even harder to see through as a newbie. Is fov_desired 90 even default yet btw.?

Sorry for wall of text, might have missed the purpose of this thread but i wanted to get my opinion out there.

I want to be able to change r_drawviewmodel and viewmodel_fov. If not the first, then at least make it so we can have up to 75 viewmodel fov, 54 just makes me want to die.

I want to be able to choose the settings for the commands viewmodel_fov and r_drawviewmodel. It's a preference thing, I don't really personally understand why Valve wants it so locked down. But, hey, it's at least nice that they implemented tf_use_min_viewmodels.

I definitely would like the option of turning my view models off or on at will in matchmaking, as well as customizing the size of them beyond viewmodel_fov 70 to at least 90.

I've played a good portion of tf2 without view-models on a good portion of my classes, and I honestly find them very "in the way" when I'm trying to aim or line up shots, or even move while doing so.

The min mode viewmodels are nice, and I'm glad they're trying to make some sort of compromise, but I really wish I could turn them off, as they're still very distracting.

Disabling view-models doesn't really offer any sort of advantage besides maybe being able to see 5 percent more of the screen, (even less with the min-models now), but that's very negligible, and there have been top level players who use view-models in the past anyways that have proven that it's nothing more than a preference.

Please let us have our custom view-model fovs and let us toggle them off or on if we wish to, Valve. I would really appreciate it.

I don't even mind them being locked in MM that much either, but that the locked cvars stay locked after leaving MM until you restart TF2 is incredibly annoying. It's just poor coding that you're still locked at 54 viewmodel_fov and r_drawviewmodel 1 in pubs and scrims until you restart.

As for a novel solution, maybe wireframe/vertex viewmodels (i.e. no textures)? So that way they still line up with the crosshair, retain the recognizable shape of the gun (and is obvious if weapon is switched), but still doesn't block the screen.

so watch a muselk video or go play pinball or something

Nah valve can eat a dick regarding constructive feedback. They know about this forum, read threads, know we're super passionate about this game and have an entire sub section dedicated to modding, and they can't even bother to tell us why.

Instead we get troll posts from employees and the occasional "hey I went to valve, they told me nothing, and I can't tell you what they said."

thanks for the posts doods, hopefully we can get more and maybe get somewhere with it.

In my opinion, if you're going to lock viewmodels on, I think that a more appealing looking distance should be set as default. 54 is too close looking to the screen and both looks unappealing and obstructs the amount of things capable of being seen on your screen. I do like the minimized viewmodel because it fixed the obstruction problem at least for me, but it's still completely distracting and unappealing at fov_viewmodel 54. Something from 75-85 should be standard, whatever the largest number is that doesn't create the glitch with the arms, to make it look appealing.

I also find it kind of odd that CSGO has a similar system to the minimized viewmodel, except it's way more customizable with the ability to move it around to your liking with a variety of commands put into the console. If Valve somehow added commands to do something similar in TF2, it wouldn't be hard to move the weapons for every slot on every class, and I think people would be much happier with this level of customization. Some other styles of minimizing would also be neat, something in the advanced options to pick a different level of minimizing, for people that don't necessarily want to take the time to mess around with the commands. The minimized viewmodel itself is a good idea, I just think it could use some work.

the highest viewmodel_fov before the arms start showing seams is 75.

that's still better than 54

i've never experience arm seams that look horrendous playing at like 83 / 90 though idk

it doesn't get too obnoxious until like 90 but some are definitely there even at 75. the scout melees are a pretty good example, spy as well.

I'm just disappointed with valve taking away things that I used and enjoyed. It makes me not want to play match making ever.

I made an account just so I can express my frustration.

You guys are so particular. At this point I'm used to minmode and probably wouldn't change back even if I had the option.

add some weapon icons on the hud as an option if you turn off the viewmodel perhaps?

I never understood the argument that it's easier for streamers who then elected to use minmode.

Instead of getting asked "where did your hands go?" it's now "why is gun small?"

If you're a streamer and use a non default setting, answering repeated questions is just something you'll have to live with.

While I understand Valve wanting to keep them on, I'll just keeping playing casual and community where I can turn them off.