Panic Attack, BFB, Pocket Pistol, Cow Mangler, Candy Cane, Holiday Punch, Cleaner's Carbine and Hitman's Hitmaker are bad and not worth being banned. There's also nothing wrong with Iron Bomber and Tomislav. Unbanning Milk, Jarate and Sandman is kinda questionable.

Please unban all non-partner taunts

unban panic attack, pretty boys pocket pistol, tide turner, holiday punch, hitmans heatmaker, cleaners carbine, and red tape recorder, no one would ever use any of these weapons

Stun mechanics are broken in tf2, so definitely no sandman please

http://www.teamfortress.tv/post/606512/unpopular-tf2-opinions

part 1 of that post ignore 2

#banhats

But the thing is you can still pretty much no scope with it by clicking m1 right after m2, like I already said, so the concept of outputting 50 damage no scopes is still prevalent. It makes you move slower for a very short amount of time. The only times you should no scope when retreating, though, is if you know they're lit or if you're at a medium distance trying to deny them from chasing, but you're probably going to live anyway with the support of your movement and your team's help. The latter is the ONLY time not being able to do a true no scope at full movement speed hurts you, but like I already said, you'll probably live anyway. You just shouldn't go for the quick 50 damage shots until you're at the point when they're lit from your teammates shooting them and running away has no benefit. It's basically the same idea with stock too, so the machina is not much of a downgrade in those specific situations.

You mention that you rarely see it being used, and you're probably right, even though in about 10/10 of the times I've opened an etf2l stream, if they ran sniper, they were using the machina. If they didn't, like you're suggesting, the reasoning is simple, and I already explained it in the post you just replied to.... It rewards the worse snipers more than it favors the very best snipers in the game, simply because its advantage is a damage boost, which is only advantageous for bodyshotting.

Some points you're missing:
-More often than not, a scout doesn't have 174-185. If you see a scout that doesn't have the beam on him, the likelihood of him being <174 is extraordinarily high. Even when a scout just got a buff, medics a lot of times only give you a tap, maybe reaching ~170.
-A demo's health is in the range of 150-173 WAY more often than you think.

Also, you said you've rarely seen collats in high level tf2. That's true, but it definitely occurs more often than you're suggesting, as I've seen like 5-10 in the past month in just frag videos of prem players.

edit: the comangler might be worse, but you guys need to understand that if something is not fun to play against because of some weird mechanic, it needs a rebalance, thus making it "unbalanced."
I'd explain why but I'm at work and clockwork already explained it well:

This also applies to the machina, as dying to a bodyshot moments after getting a buff is dumb.

http://whitelist.tf/6121
personally i think this would be a decent whitelist
I've left most taunts that aren't infinite in, because i really don't see why theyre banned, if there are any infinite ones left in that can obviously be changed, i'm not a taunt master so i'm not 100% sure which ones are and aren't.

a few weapons I think need more feedback about:

Bazaar bargain: it can pair very well with the camper, and is basically a direct upgrade if youre not just using your sniper to break stalemates. I don't know how it plays in sixes but it's a monster on pubs

Diamondback: really unsure about this one. it seems like it'd be easy to stab someone and easily two shot someone else with a crit before you get mulched, but I'm not sure

Sandvich: doesn't even seem like to big of a deal. Might make heavy a bit more viable on viaduct, maybe.

Dennia runs Machina consistently, I've seen Thalash switch to it a couple of times. But most other EU snipers (not talking about HL btw) like Stark or iZon almost never switch from stock (from what I've seen on streams). Perhaps those 10 times you've opened an etf2l stream you saw Dennia playing?

I wouldn't mind some links 'cause the only one I remember was Dennia's at DHW '15.

I totally see your point here, but it still doesn't make it worth banning this weapon imo.

Ok that is just dumb. Maybe you aren't just having fun in tf2 at all?

Didn't mean to doublepost instead of editing.

The only thing you have offered is "you're wrong" with no explanation, nitpicking sentences that dissclude the explanation which refutes what you're suggesting.

How does the fact that getting a buff on scout becomes futile when the other team has a machina sniper, especially on a map like viaduct? The same exact reasonings have been made to ban weapons like the gunslinger; it's not really op. It's just not fun to play against and has a stupid mechanic. You can argue that scout isn't fun to play against, but its mechanics are challenging and interesting, unlike the gunslinger that aims for you, or in this case, the machina, that is a direct upgrade the worse you are at aiming because its mechanic is additional damage, only being important when bodyshotting. It'd make a lot more sense if it rewarded skilled play instead. Keep in mind that a balanced weapon should reward skill, not dumb mechanics or bad play.

http://whitelist.tf/6123

Opinions?

Also, I believe the cvar tf_taunt_first_person should be set on 1. I dont think you should ever get a 3rd person camera when alive at all. If this cvar would get added, I guess all taunts that cant be abused for glitches should be unbanned.

And you could even allow all taunts, if someone tries a glitch with it its gonna be extremelly obvious and easy to report.

The biggest things I disagree with on this:

• sandvich/dalokohs bar allowed
  
• cow mangler allowed and DH not

I'm really skeptical about the diamondback though

also why ban red tape recorder there's nothing really that makes it better over the stock sapper

Just like the Cozy Camper that every single NA Sniper was abusing to death.

Maybe you could leave Machina alone and tell me about all other unlocks that are banned for having a dumb mechanic that doesn't reward skill? Like Hitman's Hitmaker maybe? Or Widowmaker? Iron Bomber? Tomislav?

Widowmaker actually rewards skill tho

I dont find Lunchboxes being unbalanced to the point where they need to be banned. Sandvich will heal the heavy, yeah, but he is pretty much only seen in last, and when he is being used he never runs back to spawn unless the enemy team has been wiped or forced to retreat to mid, he doesnt have the time to eat a sandvich to heal, and switching weapons to throw a sandvich to a teammate probably wont be worth giving up all your positioning and area denial for at least 5 seconds, specially while under fire.

Also the chocolate bar is just a worse sandvich, you may attemp a heavy sneaky play while having 350 HP, but its extremelly situational. Also it doesnt increase your overheal cap.

Also if you throw it randomly on a point/area behind a choke, you're also risking that an enemy may take it, specially if you get attacked by suprise.

The cow mangler is basicly a Rocket launcher with infinite ammo but with a worse reload, I doubt the charge shot would have any use, its very easy to hear from afar, makes the soldier practically immobile for 2-3 seconds, and drains all ammo.

And for the Direct hit, I'm a bit skeptical on it, I feel like it makes bomb denials a bit too easy, and it oneshotting scouts at close range is also quite annoying. I kinda agree on corsa's post above about the DH and it made me ban it.

I dont see the problem with the Diamondback, you're missing on the L'Etranger for reliable cloak, and that one crit will almost never matter since after the stab you most likely will either die or escape, you could get an extra kill if you manage to spot a player under 102 hp right after getting the, most likely, medic kill, and also manage to aim your only shot and hit it while being most likely shot by 4-5 men, then the kill imo is deserved. Also you're missing on DPS if being detected and forced onto a 1v1.

And finally the Red tape recorder is very glitchy iirc, I remember it keeping buildings un-unsappable more often than stock, but maybe I'm wrong

alright time to take a go at this: http://whitelist.tf/6126

only ones I'm kinda skeptical on including were solemn vow and baby face's

also I included some random single player taunts but if that's all you're really going to complain about then idk man

only other ones I might see people complain about are the inclusion of pyrovision and explode on death misc

thoughts?

You realize ESEA's whitelist hasn't been looked at or changed for a while? A good amount of weapons were banned because they came out mid season not because they were deemed broken or OP such as the Iron bomber

All those unlocks are quite old (except Iron Bomber perhaps).

On top of this, nobody thought the cozy camper was balanced. That's why valve rebalanced it.

What sells the lunchbox items for me is the fact that they're rechargeable, forcing stalemates to go to a spy/sniper to gain a crucial pick rather than a scout sack/soldier bomb to force an uber because a heavy is good enough at denying bombers as is, why not equip him with a rechargeable healthpack that, mind you, gets fully recharged when you walk over a health kit

true, but +25 percent health when any class is trying to kill you may be what can get you to the next medium health kit, or the safety of your teammates even

This one I will agree with you on, but even a heavy at 200 health will take a decent bit of a soldier's ammo to kill unless he has a shotgun on hand or is trying to get kills with the market gardener

This is why when teams are trying to force the other team while they're trying to push through a choke, that coordinated spam works. Add a minicritting charge shot in there and next thing you know as a pocket, you're looking at a respawn timer and your medic has to uber another class to even have a chance at getting damage on the enemy team since they're almost out of that area by that time

I see the DH more of as a bad manners sort of weapon, but I will agree with your skepticism about it.

I feel like a kunai + C&D + diamondback would be the combo that would make players upset the most, since getting a pick to begin with grants you a very healthy overheal, which you can use to make a getaway with the slight additional resistance that you get when cloaking, but if you do end up in a 1v1 situation you're basically dead in all honesty, so any possibly DPS that you wouldn't have would be pretty much admissible (at least in my opinion).

If the red tape recorder is still buggy, then I can understand why it wouldn't be allowed. But if the bugs have been removed, then I'll still stand by my original statement that I feel there isn't much that would make it better than the stock sapper

esea has autobanned new items since idk like s14?

DH is definitely not overpowered. Running a DH soldier means your whole team has to change the way it takes engagements and you really have to play around it for it to be effective at all

in what world where u can get a 50-80 damage(not counting bleed) every 5 seconds is worse than the pistol. Pistol is more often used to just spam at chokes from afar or if you're right at their face and can hit most shots. You just throw them at chokes and deny people from pushing, not to mention a potential instakill if someone is under 100 hp and the fact that it denies airstrafing and has aimpunching.

Can I ask a question? Why does everyone still ban the LochnLoad?
I understand why it was initially banned, but now that it does not have the extra damage, why is it still banned?
Also, why does the logic that applies to the lochnload not apply to the direct hit? Its almost the same thing in my eyes, but its possible that I am missing something here.
Im personally also a fan of unbanning quickie bombs, but those are actually over powered so I don't think that is ever going to happen, I just happen to enjoy them a lot, and it makes me sad that demo now only really has two useful unlocks, the cannon and the pain train, everything else seems near pointless post booties nerf.

The extra speed makes it still really good.

Direct hit is a Primary Weapon for Soldier, when you use it you give up the Rocket Launcher. When you use the Loch n Load on Demo you still have stickies while getting pipes that are easier to hit.

Did people already experiment with the new quickfix?

As you basically get the charge the same time as a kritz but you don't get faster to middle anymore.

Is it still OP?

I can't believe these idiots that can't see how much of a huge downside that the machina tracers are.

Downfragged for being right ;)

All that was really done was decrease the charge build time, so I'm not entirely sure if that's enough to justify it being unbanned. It still builds faster than the default medi gun though.

I think that maybe a way to get it unbanned would be to either

• make the quick fix uber build time less than the stock ubercharge

and/or

• make the blast movement capability only available during the quick fix uber (maybe increase the quick fix uber duration to compensate for this??)

but those are just my thoughts

Little known fact that quick fix always builds uber at a flat rate, you can't build faster with a quick fix.

http://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/The-more-you-know.png