as a soldier, i really like the usage of two levels with lots of unique areas. feels really spammy though with the tight entrances though, and it seems so easy to let a scout get through behind and never see them because of all the clutter. lots of thin ramps and ways to fall off too which i feel would just be annoying during fights.
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as a soldier, i really like the usage of two levels with lots of unique areas. feels really spammy though with the tight entrances though, and it seems so easy to let a scout get through behind and never see them because of all the clutter. lots of thin ramps and ways to fall off too which i feel would just be annoying during fights.
I've gotta say, i'm really enjoying the look of mid and last. But second / last connector is really janky and doesn't look very good. It's so open there isn't really a defined choke point like Snakewater
I've gotta say, i'm really enjoying the look of mid and last. But second / last connector is really janky and doesn't look very good. It's so open there isn't really a defined choke point like Snakewater
This might be a confusing paintover at first. I was lazy with screenshots so I just combined all my feedback in one image with different colors. Bear with me. I'll explain everything.
http://i.imgur.com/EiaQLCh.jpg
First up: the second half of the rollout feels really off. As it stands, probably the quickest method of getting to mid is the skip jump denoted by the orange arrows on the right, but this requires getting up to and through the awkwardly placed shipping container (green box) before it, which either requires a long U-turn or an awkward short jump wasting health. The other doors don't provide many good jump options, it's either a strange couple jumps through valley or a walk through the inner rooms in the middle.
I don't like how you have to go around behind everything to get onto the high ground in the lobby. The quickest way I can see is denoted by the red arrow, and even that is really out of the way.
I also don't like how you require to own the pink square on last in order to climb up the right side. This means as soon as a team pushes in through that side and occupies that space, the defenders physically cannot use the right side of the last because the only way you can get up requires walking into the pink square, which is very far forward. This will make teams want to hold on the left side nearly all of the time, because of the short transit distance between high ground and the easy path from spawn. The right spawn door exit becomes completely useless as soon as you are holding last.
Second is also weirdly disjointed for any non-jumping class. If you're stuck on the low ground where the yellow circle is, you only have two nearby options for getting back up to the high ground (yellow arrows), which are both rather convoluted and require backtracking a lot of ground. (The lower yellow arrow isn't too bad, but it could still be improved I think... unless you're going for some sort of Badlands feel, in that case the point needs to be a lot more visible and open than it is now.)
Similarly, if you're on the low ground denoted by the blue circles, you have exceptionally long transit times, one of which is a very particular jump from the nearby red crate to the highground.
Speaking of second, I absolutely abhor the geometry of the room highlighted by the light-blue square. It feels like something out of the depths of Mario 64, not something that belongs in a fast-paced shooter. That tiny catwalk looks like the worst thing to fight on in the middle of a fight.
Last: I really don't like the way the small hut (pink quadrilateral) is set up in relation to the paths at mid. Soldiers holding the hut-thing get free health, and total control over valley: it's very hard to counter jump this position as a single jump needs to be rather far forward to reach, and double jumps would take away a lot of health. A soldier on this hut can very easily bounce back to the upper catwalk (jump denoted by orange arrow from left) and gain another small healthpack and similar views of the other entrances (denoted by purple arrows). I think these healthkits give these positions a little too much power over what will probably be the flank routes, since any combo pushing valley will always be forced very early before reaching mid by some soldier standing valiantly on hut.
This isn't a ton of feedback, but it's my first thoughts, we'll see how the map plays out.
This might be a confusing paintover at first. I was lazy with screenshots so I just combined all my feedback in one image with different colors. Bear with me. I'll explain everything.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EiaQLCh.jpg[/img]
First up: the second half of the rollout feels really off. As it stands, probably the quickest method of getting to mid is the skip jump denoted by the orange arrows on the right, but this requires getting up to and through the awkwardly placed shipping container (green box) before it, which either requires a long U-turn or an awkward short jump wasting health. The other doors don't provide many good jump options, it's either a strange couple jumps through valley or a walk through the inner rooms in the middle.
I don't like how you have to go around behind everything to get onto the high ground in the lobby. The quickest way I can see is denoted by the red arrow, and even that is really out of the way.
I also don't like how you require to own the pink square on last in order to climb up the right side. This means as soon as a team pushes in through that side and occupies that space, the defenders physically cannot use the right side of the last because the only way you can get up requires walking into the pink square, which is very far forward. This will make teams want to hold on the left side nearly all of the time, because of the short transit distance between high ground and the easy path from spawn. The right spawn door exit becomes completely useless as soon as you are holding last.
Second is also weirdly disjointed for any non-jumping class. If you're stuck on the low ground where the yellow circle is, you only have two nearby options for getting back up to the high ground (yellow arrows), which are both rather convoluted and require backtracking a lot of ground. (The lower yellow arrow isn't too bad, but it could still be improved I think... unless you're going for some sort of Badlands feel, in that case the point needs to be a lot more visible and open than it is now.)
Similarly, if you're on the low ground denoted by the blue circles, you have exceptionally long transit times, one of which is a very particular jump from the nearby red crate to the highground.
Speaking of second, I absolutely abhor the geometry of the room highlighted by the light-blue square. It feels like something out of the depths of Mario 64, not something that belongs in a fast-paced shooter. That tiny catwalk looks like the worst thing to fight on in the middle of a fight.
Last: I really don't like the way the small hut (pink quadrilateral) is set up in relation to the paths at mid. Soldiers holding the hut-thing get free health, and total control over valley: it's very hard to counter jump this position as a single jump needs to be rather far forward to reach, and double jumps would take away a lot of health. A soldier on this hut can very easily bounce back to the upper catwalk (jump denoted by orange arrow from left) and gain another small healthpack and similar views of the other entrances (denoted by purple arrows). I think these healthkits give these positions a little too much power over what will probably be the flank routes, since any combo pushing valley will always be forced very early before reaching mid by some soldier standing valiantly on hut.
This isn't a ton of feedback, but it's my first thoughts, we'll see how the map plays out.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EiaQLCh.jpg[/img]
First up: the second half of the rollout feels really off. As it stands, probably the quickest method of getting to mid is the skip jump denoted by the orange arrows on the right, but this requires getting up to and through the awkwardly placed shipping container (green box) before it, which either requires a long U-turn or an awkward short jump wasting health. The other doors don't provide many good jump options, it's either a strange couple jumps through valley or a walk through the inner rooms in the middle.
I don't like how you have to go around behind everything to get onto the high ground in the lobby. The quickest way I can see is denoted by the red arrow, and even that is really out of the way.
I also don't like how you require to own the pink square on last in order to climb up the right side. This means as soon as a team pushes in through that side and occupies that space, the defenders physically cannot use the right side of the last because the only way you can get up requires walking into the pink square, which is very far forward. This will make teams want to hold on the left side nearly all of the time, because of the short transit distance between high ground and the easy path from spawn. The right spawn door exit becomes completely useless as soon as you are holding last.
Second is also weirdly disjointed for any non-jumping class. If you're stuck on the low ground where the yellow circle is, you only have two nearby options for getting back up to the high ground (yellow arrows), which are both rather convoluted and require backtracking a lot of ground. (The lower yellow arrow isn't too bad, but it could still be improved I think... unless you're going for some sort of Badlands feel, in that case the point needs to be a lot more visible and open than it is now.)
Similarly, if you're on the low ground denoted by the blue circles, you have exceptionally long transit times, one of which is a very particular jump from the nearby red crate to the highground.
Speaking of second, I absolutely abhor the geometry of the room highlighted by the light-blue square. It feels like something out of the depths of Mario 64, not something that belongs in a fast-paced shooter. That tiny catwalk looks like the worst thing to fight on in the middle of a fight.
Last: I really don't like the way the small hut (pink quadrilateral) is set up in relation to the paths at mid. Soldiers holding the hut-thing get free health, and total control over valley: it's very hard to counter jump this position as a single jump needs to be rather far forward to reach, and double jumps would take away a lot of health. A soldier on this hut can very easily bounce back to the upper catwalk (jump denoted by orange arrow from left) and gain another small healthpack and similar views of the other entrances (denoted by purple arrows). I think these healthkits give these positions a little too much power over what will probably be the flank routes, since any combo pushing valley will always be forced very early before reaching mid by some soldier standing valiantly on hut.
This isn't a ton of feedback, but it's my first thoughts, we'll see how the map plays out.
Thank you for all the excellent feedback for such an early version, I've been working this week to complete a2 and hopefully take the map in the right direction:
cp_cargo_a2 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a2.bsp
Changelog u2
Major:
Imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/9xc9n
* Reworked mid, valley got smaller in the process
* Middle spawn door at last is now one-way and a lot smaller
* Added a route onto the point from defenders' right side of last
* Lobby completely reworked
* 2 and house reworked
Minor:
* 2 does no longer require a crouch jump
* Lobby top walkway is now flat
* Reduced sightlines through shelves in lobby
* The top entrance to last is now easier to reach for defenders
* Simplified lobby geometry
* Removed pills on top platforms of mid
* Barriers on mid are now double jumpable
* Removed perches throughout the map
Basically, each area has been somewhat reworked.
The main goals have been to make the map tighter, and reduce the strength of the flanks. The connectors are still mostly very open which I hope will encourage offensive play without making the chokes impossible to hold. I will need a lot of feedback here as it's a tough balance.
I've also tried to simplify geometry throughout the map and reduce frustrating elements.
Two things that I feel haven't yet been resolved are:
* The mid point seems a bit too complex for it's basic concept. I might do a complete overhaul here once the other areas are nearing a more stable state.
* The area beneath the second point still feels very disconnected from the upper level. This might work (e.g. Badlands), but it feels like a too harsh punishment as of now to fall from the point.
Hopefully you'll enjoy a2; I'll be back soon with more updates.
Cheers,
chojje
Thank you for all the excellent feedback for such an early version, I've been working this week to complete a2 and hopefully take the map in the right direction:
[size=16]cp_cargo_a2 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a2.bsp[/size]
[u]Changelog u2
Major:[/u]
Imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/9xc9n
* Reworked mid, valley got smaller in the process
* Middle spawn door at last is now one-way and a lot smaller
* Added a route onto the point from defenders' right side of last
* Lobby completely reworked
* 2 and house reworked
[u]Minor:[/u]
* 2 does no longer require a crouch jump
* Lobby top walkway is now flat
* Reduced sightlines through shelves in lobby
* The top entrance to last is now easier to reach for defenders
* Simplified lobby geometry
* Removed pills on top platforms of mid
* Barriers on mid are now double jumpable
* Removed perches throughout the map
Basically, each area has been somewhat reworked.
The main goals have been to make the map tighter, and reduce the strength of the flanks. The connectors are still mostly very open which I hope will encourage offensive play without making the chokes impossible to hold. I will need a lot of feedback here as it's a tough balance.
I've also tried to simplify geometry throughout the map and reduce frustrating elements.
Two things that I feel haven't yet been resolved are:
* The mid point seems a bit too complex for it's basic concept. I might do a complete overhaul here once the other areas are nearing a more stable state.
* The area beneath the second point still feels very disconnected from the upper level. This might work (e.g. Badlands), but it feels like a too harsh punishment as of now to fall from the point.
Hopefully you'll enjoy a2; I'll be back soon with more updates.
Cheers,
chojje
[size=16]cp_cargo_a2 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a2.bsp[/size]
[u]Changelog u2
Major:[/u]
Imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/9xc9n
* Reworked mid, valley got smaller in the process
* Middle spawn door at last is now one-way and a lot smaller
* Added a route onto the point from defenders' right side of last
* Lobby completely reworked
* 2 and house reworked
[u]Minor:[/u]
* 2 does no longer require a crouch jump
* Lobby top walkway is now flat
* Reduced sightlines through shelves in lobby
* The top entrance to last is now easier to reach for defenders
* Simplified lobby geometry
* Removed pills on top platforms of mid
* Barriers on mid are now double jumpable
* Removed perches throughout the map
Basically, each area has been somewhat reworked.
The main goals have been to make the map tighter, and reduce the strength of the flanks. The connectors are still mostly very open which I hope will encourage offensive play without making the chokes impossible to hold. I will need a lot of feedback here as it's a tough balance.
I've also tried to simplify geometry throughout the map and reduce frustrating elements.
Two things that I feel haven't yet been resolved are:
* The mid point seems a bit too complex for it's basic concept. I might do a complete overhaul here once the other areas are nearing a more stable state.
* The area beneath the second point still feels very disconnected from the upper level. This might work (e.g. Badlands), but it feels like a too harsh punishment as of now to fall from the point.
Hopefully you'll enjoy a2; I'll be back soon with more updates.
Cheers,
chojje
2nd does indeed resemble badlands 2nd. In Badlands though the deck/battlements is pretty difficult to hold and trash is a viable option as long as you have presence on spire. Difference here is that scouts cannot easily get onto the point. You also give the attackers more high ground with the crates compared to badlands so holding low ground in "trash" doesn't seem so attractive.
You could try to mimic badlands but making a ramp like in my pic would probably be safer.
2nd does indeed resemble badlands 2nd. In Badlands though the deck/battlements is pretty difficult to hold and trash is a viable option as long as you have presence on spire. Difference here is that scouts cannot easily get onto the point. You also give the attackers more high ground with the crates compared to badlands so holding low ground in "trash" doesn't seem so attractive.
You could try to mimic badlands but making a ramp like in my pic would probably be safer.
[img]https://i.gyazo.com/5d9a6fd3ce91c94dd73579742d488d05.jpg[/img]
You could try to mimic badlands but making a ramp like in my pic would probably be safer.
[img]https://i.gyazo.com/5d9a6fd3ce91c94dd73579742d488d05.jpg[/img]
Nice progress! I especially approve of the changes in the lobby, mid and the "valley".
Last: The new entrance is still campable. A demoman who just spawned can easily lay down a few stickies on the point. I think you shuold remove that exit. You can also just camp it from inside of the trigger brush...
This sightline is insane:
http://i.imgur.com/erYpeg1.jpg
This one might be a problem, but I doubt it:
http://i.imgur.com/IAHcUJ8.jpg
Suggestion:
http://i.imgur.com/yhSbnVW.jpg
You can maybe make the white building larger? The short wall seems kinda awkward...
Nice progress! I especially approve of the changes in the lobby, mid and the "valley".
Last: The new entrance is still campable. A demoman who just spawned can easily lay down a few stickies on the point. I think you shuold remove that exit. You can also just camp it from inside of the trigger brush...
This sightline is insane: [img]http://i.imgur.com/erYpeg1.jpg[/img]
This one might be a problem, but I doubt it: [img]http://i.imgur.com/IAHcUJ8.jpg[/img]
Suggestion:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/yhSbnVW.jpg[/img] You can maybe make the white building larger? The short wall seems kinda awkward...
Last: The new entrance is still campable. A demoman who just spawned can easily lay down a few stickies on the point. I think you shuold remove that exit. You can also just camp it from inside of the trigger brush...
This sightline is insane: [img]http://i.imgur.com/erYpeg1.jpg[/img]
This one might be a problem, but I doubt it: [img]http://i.imgur.com/IAHcUJ8.jpg[/img]
Suggestion:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/yhSbnVW.jpg[/img] You can maybe make the white building larger? The short wall seems kinda awkward...
From a-top the left fence, on last (which snipers can jump to from the middle spawn door balcony)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935119
you can shoot to the med kit on second.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935153
From the left door of house on last,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935036
you can shoot the second point itself.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935073
From a-top the left fence, on last (which snipers can jump to from the middle spawn door balcony)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935119
you can shoot to the med kit on second.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935153
From the left door of house on last,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935036
you can shoot the second point itself.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935073
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935119
you can shoot to the med kit on second.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935153
From the left door of house on last,
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935036
you can shoot the second point itself.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706935073
Anyone wanna mix on this map this weekend? If so, add me (EU)
EDIT: if you're in my friends already, give me a shout
Anyone wanna mix on this map this weekend? If so, add me (EU)
EDIT: if you're in my friends already, give me a shout
EDIT: if you're in my friends already, give me a shout
[Part 1]
Rehashing all the spots we went over a bit ago:
To start off, I'd recommend completely getting rid of this upper spawn door, plus the extra high ground around the point.
http://i.imgur.com/iR3mOCm.jpg
The third spawn door will make it pretty annoying balancing out both of the spawn doors in the future for your map, plus it gives easy high ground to the defending team coming out of spawn, making it the only viable exit. Try walling off that area, since it already provides some nice separation between the doors that discourages spawn camping and you'd want to keep that. The doors are also well balanced out already and have similar advantages towards agressing the point.
http://i.imgur.com/DWsxmcc.jpg
This area between the spawns is close to being alright. It gives maneuverability to the players, but promotes demos camping between the two doors, right now. To force a demo to only one door, I'd recommend either bringing the wall in more to support spam against him, or lowering the ground so that he'd be at a disadvantage, or a mixture of the two.
http://i.imgur.com/Pkp2izF.jpg
When we were talking, you said that you wanted the middle route to be the main route/choke. To promote that idea you should try creating some nice holding ground, and a way up to it. This should help teams flow into this last point, too.
http://i.imgur.com/epbfREk.jpg
Due to how this route is set up, it seems like the most viable option for it would probably be an alternate route. With that in mid, lowering this to the ground and getting rid of the bridge to the point from here will make it so that it's not overly powerful, and will give a few more options to both teams.
http://i.imgur.com/JTloR4D.jpg
With the other two routes established, this last one seems most viable as a flank. Moving this route's entrance into last up a bit will create a nice no-man's-land in between the entrance and the high ground opposite to it. Moving the holding position forward a bit, or creating high ground closer to the entrance will also help that ideal. You should also try making some kind of route around the holding position of the defenders, or towards the point (so it can be used for some flank options).
http://i.imgur.com/aiDTLEK.jpg
Currently the choke has some high ground over the flank route that separates the players coming from choke, and also gives a free visual towards the players in flank, at the same time. If you wall that off, it'll decrease vision and also focus the players coming through the choke a lot more.
http://i.imgur.com/3FBjDUl.jpg
This health and ammo doesn't make too much sense here. It promotes players holding around this position, even though they're at a disadvantage. It also isn't very likely that the defenders will rotate to here from the better positions they'll have on high ground. Health and ammo on lasts isn't really a necessity, due to the resupply cabinets, but they can support holding closer to a choke. If you found a spot that was closer to the high ground for the flank to put these, it'd probably work out a lot better.
http://i.imgur.com/f1nLEv2.jpg
A good, major change to this area would be to heighten all of the ground to be leveled. This helps with making future changes to the entrance into last, and the entrance into this lobby.
http://i.imgur.com/ZiBQnLG.jpg
Moving the wall you have set up closer to the flank entrance should make peaking into this last a bit more interesting and will open up lobby a bit more. Then you should be able to conjoin the two ramps together into one, larger ramp. This will also create a 90 degree turn in this choke, which should help with any future sight lines that might pop up.
http://i.imgur.com/x8PFqTj.jpg
Walling this off should get rid of the sigh tline you were worried about in lobby, and should help make a nice bit of separation in it, overall.
http://i.imgur.com/KYQcHFM.jpg
Adding to that, moving the general height of this down to meet up with the height on last, or making some kind of ramp up to it, should give you a few more options when it comes to changing things in the future, and also creates a no-man's-land in between this pathway, the choke, and the holding position on last.
http://i.imgur.com/SkZ5oZR.jpg
Right now this entrance is on low ground and seems very out of the way compared to all the other entrances. If you were to remove the shutter, lower the ground to meet with the other changes, and make a ramp going up to this high ground on this side of the crates, it should help increase the viability of taking this route.
http://i.imgur.com/trKsDrQ.jpg
Creating a ramp up to this high ground gives some more route options into lobby and should also help make a pseudo-holding position for flank.
http://i.imgur.com/pkc7T3f.jpg
Right now, with you wanting this to be the choke, the high ground on these crates is a bit too hard to aggress. Changing the direction of the ramp to go down to the lower creates, and removing the high ground and the crate closest to the choke should help players flowing into second. It also gives another route option up to the point that forces you to go through the defending team.
http://i.imgur.com/BEpka92.jpg
Adding to that, if you were to increase the high ground around mid and coming from the choke to be similar to the high ground given on the creates, you could create a simple, small no-man's-land in between those two spots, as well as evening out the ground between the two teams.
http://i.imgur.com/6YBkEJJ.jpg
Moving this crate and ramp back a bit should help with player movement onto the point and around this area.
http://i.imgur.com/3XZvW56.jpg
With the newly created ramp up to the higher crate, you wouldn't need these barrel crates here anymore, so you could remove them to reduce clutter. It might also help with teams coming out of the forward spawn, not having to move around as many objects.
http://i.imgur.com/xAV5aGo.jpg
This opening gives a sight line to the flank for people holding close to choke. I'd recommend walling it off to separate the two routes more.
http://i.imgur.com/QPaolnO.jpg
Right now both the flank route, and this alternate route lead to the point. If a player were to take this alternate route towards the point, people holding flank and main wouldn't be able to see them until they got to the point. I'd recommend removing this entrance and changing some of the opportunities it gives the attacking team. Also giving a visual to either flank or main if anyone is aggressing from the alternate route should help the defending team with fighting against it, as well as giving them some more reaction time (if you plan on putting a window, make sure it doesn't have immediate high ground over wherever the main holding position is).
http://i.imgur.com/zlYtnAk.jpg
Walling this off separates the alternate route from choke a bit more, and should help with some future changes.
http://i.imgur.com/9RKivjA.jpg
Right now, this choke is very open and doesn't have any direct routes leading into it from mid. Which also has the drawback of creating some pretty bad sight lines.
http://i.imgur.com/d2FodWq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6t0zSmf.jpg
To fix that, creating a wall with an entrance closest to the camera, added with the other wall I above, should force players to come from one direction into the choke. This'll also remove any harsh sight lines coming into mid, since it closes off both entrances on both sides of the mid.
[Part 1]
Rehashing all the spots we went over a bit ago:
To start off, I'd recommend completely getting rid of this upper spawn door, plus the extra high ground around the point.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/iR3mOCm.jpg[/img]
The third spawn door will make it pretty annoying balancing out both of the spawn doors in the future for your map, plus it gives easy high ground to the defending team coming out of spawn, making it the only viable exit. Try walling off that area, since it already provides some nice separation between the doors that discourages spawn camping and you'd want to keep that. The doors are also well balanced out already and have similar advantages towards agressing the point.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/DWsxmcc.jpg[/img]
This area between the spawns is close to being alright. It gives maneuverability to the players, but promotes demos camping between the two doors, right now. To force a demo to only one door, I'd recommend either bringing the wall in more to support spam against him, or lowering the ground so that he'd be at a disadvantage, or a mixture of the two.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Pkp2izF.jpg[/img]
When we were talking, you said that you wanted the middle route to be the main route/choke. To promote that idea you should try creating some nice holding ground, and a way up to it. This should help teams flow into this last point, too.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/epbfREk.jpg[/img]
Due to how this route is set up, it seems like the most viable option for it would probably be an alternate route. With that in mid, lowering this to the ground and getting rid of the bridge to the point from here will make it so that it's not overly powerful, and will give a few more options to both teams.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/JTloR4D.jpg[/img]
With the other two routes established, this last one seems most viable as a flank. Moving this route's entrance into last up a bit will create a nice no-man's-land in between the entrance and the high ground opposite to it. Moving the holding position forward a bit, or creating high ground closer to the entrance will also help that ideal. You should also try making some kind of route around the holding position of the defenders, or towards the point (so it can be used for some flank options).
[img]http://i.imgur.com/aiDTLEK.jpg[/img]
Currently the choke has some high ground over the flank route that separates the players coming from choke, and also gives a free visual towards the players in flank, at the same time. If you wall that off, it'll decrease vision and also focus the players coming through the choke a lot more.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/3FBjDUl.jpg[/img]
This health and ammo doesn't make too much sense here. It promotes players holding around this position, even though they're at a disadvantage. It also isn't very likely that the defenders will rotate to here from the better positions they'll have on high ground. Health and ammo on lasts isn't really a necessity, due to the resupply cabinets, but they can support holding closer to a choke. If you found a spot that was closer to the high ground for the flank to put these, it'd probably work out a lot better.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/f1nLEv2.jpg[/img]
A good, major change to this area would be to heighten all of the ground to be leveled. This helps with making future changes to the entrance into last, and the entrance into this lobby.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ZiBQnLG.jpg[/img]
Moving the wall you have set up closer to the flank entrance should make peaking into this last a bit more interesting and will open up lobby a bit more. Then you should be able to conjoin the two ramps together into one, larger ramp. This will also create a 90 degree turn in this choke, which should help with any future sight lines that might pop up.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/x8PFqTj.jpg[/img]
Walling this off should get rid of the sigh tline you were worried about in lobby, and should help make a nice bit of separation in it, overall.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/KYQcHFM.jpg[/img]
Adding to that, moving the general height of this down to meet up with the height on last, or making some kind of ramp up to it, should give you a few more options when it comes to changing things in the future, and also creates a no-man's-land in between this pathway, the choke, and the holding position on last.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/SkZ5oZR.jpg[/img]
Right now this entrance is on low ground and seems very out of the way compared to all the other entrances. If you were to remove the shutter, lower the ground to meet with the other changes, and make a ramp going up to this high ground on this side of the crates, it should help increase the viability of taking this route.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/trKsDrQ.jpg[/img]
Creating a ramp up to this high ground gives some more route options into lobby and should also help make a pseudo-holding position for flank.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/pkc7T3f.jpg[/img]
Right now, with you wanting this to be the choke, the high ground on these crates is a bit too hard to aggress. Changing the direction of the ramp to go down to the lower creates, and removing the high ground and the crate closest to the choke should help players flowing into second. It also gives another route option up to the point that forces you to go through the defending team.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/BEpka92.jpg[/img]
Adding to that, if you were to increase the high ground around mid and coming from the choke to be similar to the high ground given on the creates, you could create a simple, small no-man's-land in between those two spots, as well as evening out the ground between the two teams.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/6YBkEJJ.jpg[/img]
Moving this crate and ramp back a bit should help with player movement onto the point and around this area.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/3XZvW56.jpg[/img]
With the newly created ramp up to the higher crate, you wouldn't need these barrel crates here anymore, so you could remove them to reduce clutter. It might also help with teams coming out of the forward spawn, not having to move around as many objects.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/xAV5aGo.jpg[/img]
This opening gives a sight line to the flank for people holding close to choke. I'd recommend walling it off to separate the two routes more.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/QPaolnO.jpg[/img]
Right now both the flank route, and this alternate route lead to the point. If a player were to take this alternate route towards the point, people holding flank and main wouldn't be able to see them until they got to the point. I'd recommend removing this entrance and changing some of the opportunities it gives the attacking team. Also giving a visual to either flank or main if anyone is aggressing from the alternate route should help the defending team with fighting against it, as well as giving them some more reaction time (if you plan on putting a window, make sure it doesn't have immediate high ground over wherever the main holding position is).
[img]http://i.imgur.com/zlYtnAk.jpg[/img]
Walling this off separates the alternate route from choke a bit more, and should help with some future changes.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/9RKivjA.jpg[/img]
Right now, this choke is very open and doesn't have any direct routes leading into it from mid. Which also has the drawback of creating some pretty bad sight lines.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/d2FodWq.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/6t0zSmf.jpg[/img]
To fix that, creating a wall with an entrance closest to the camera, added with the other wall I above, should force players to come from one direction into the choke. This'll also remove any harsh sight lines coming into mid, since it closes off both entrances on both sides of the mid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/fsaeK8R.jpg[/img]
Rehashing all the spots we went over a bit ago:
To start off, I'd recommend completely getting rid of this upper spawn door, plus the extra high ground around the point.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/iR3mOCm.jpg[/img]
The third spawn door will make it pretty annoying balancing out both of the spawn doors in the future for your map, plus it gives easy high ground to the defending team coming out of spawn, making it the only viable exit. Try walling off that area, since it already provides some nice separation between the doors that discourages spawn camping and you'd want to keep that. The doors are also well balanced out already and have similar advantages towards agressing the point.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/DWsxmcc.jpg[/img]
This area between the spawns is close to being alright. It gives maneuverability to the players, but promotes demos camping between the two doors, right now. To force a demo to only one door, I'd recommend either bringing the wall in more to support spam against him, or lowering the ground so that he'd be at a disadvantage, or a mixture of the two.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Pkp2izF.jpg[/img]
When we were talking, you said that you wanted the middle route to be the main route/choke. To promote that idea you should try creating some nice holding ground, and a way up to it. This should help teams flow into this last point, too.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/epbfREk.jpg[/img]
Due to how this route is set up, it seems like the most viable option for it would probably be an alternate route. With that in mid, lowering this to the ground and getting rid of the bridge to the point from here will make it so that it's not overly powerful, and will give a few more options to both teams.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/JTloR4D.jpg[/img]
With the other two routes established, this last one seems most viable as a flank. Moving this route's entrance into last up a bit will create a nice no-man's-land in between the entrance and the high ground opposite to it. Moving the holding position forward a bit, or creating high ground closer to the entrance will also help that ideal. You should also try making some kind of route around the holding position of the defenders, or towards the point (so it can be used for some flank options).
[img]http://i.imgur.com/aiDTLEK.jpg[/img]
Currently the choke has some high ground over the flank route that separates the players coming from choke, and also gives a free visual towards the players in flank, at the same time. If you wall that off, it'll decrease vision and also focus the players coming through the choke a lot more.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/3FBjDUl.jpg[/img]
This health and ammo doesn't make too much sense here. It promotes players holding around this position, even though they're at a disadvantage. It also isn't very likely that the defenders will rotate to here from the better positions they'll have on high ground. Health and ammo on lasts isn't really a necessity, due to the resupply cabinets, but they can support holding closer to a choke. If you found a spot that was closer to the high ground for the flank to put these, it'd probably work out a lot better.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/f1nLEv2.jpg[/img]
A good, major change to this area would be to heighten all of the ground to be leveled. This helps with making future changes to the entrance into last, and the entrance into this lobby.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ZiBQnLG.jpg[/img]
Moving the wall you have set up closer to the flank entrance should make peaking into this last a bit more interesting and will open up lobby a bit more. Then you should be able to conjoin the two ramps together into one, larger ramp. This will also create a 90 degree turn in this choke, which should help with any future sight lines that might pop up.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/x8PFqTj.jpg[/img]
Walling this off should get rid of the sigh tline you were worried about in lobby, and should help make a nice bit of separation in it, overall.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/KYQcHFM.jpg[/img]
Adding to that, moving the general height of this down to meet up with the height on last, or making some kind of ramp up to it, should give you a few more options when it comes to changing things in the future, and also creates a no-man's-land in between this pathway, the choke, and the holding position on last.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/SkZ5oZR.jpg[/img]
Right now this entrance is on low ground and seems very out of the way compared to all the other entrances. If you were to remove the shutter, lower the ground to meet with the other changes, and make a ramp going up to this high ground on this side of the crates, it should help increase the viability of taking this route.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/trKsDrQ.jpg[/img]
Creating a ramp up to this high ground gives some more route options into lobby and should also help make a pseudo-holding position for flank.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/pkc7T3f.jpg[/img]
Right now, with you wanting this to be the choke, the high ground on these crates is a bit too hard to aggress. Changing the direction of the ramp to go down to the lower creates, and removing the high ground and the crate closest to the choke should help players flowing into second. It also gives another route option up to the point that forces you to go through the defending team.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/BEpka92.jpg[/img]
Adding to that, if you were to increase the high ground around mid and coming from the choke to be similar to the high ground given on the creates, you could create a simple, small no-man's-land in between those two spots, as well as evening out the ground between the two teams.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/6YBkEJJ.jpg[/img]
Moving this crate and ramp back a bit should help with player movement onto the point and around this area.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/3XZvW56.jpg[/img]
With the newly created ramp up to the higher crate, you wouldn't need these barrel crates here anymore, so you could remove them to reduce clutter. It might also help with teams coming out of the forward spawn, not having to move around as many objects.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/xAV5aGo.jpg[/img]
This opening gives a sight line to the flank for people holding close to choke. I'd recommend walling it off to separate the two routes more.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/QPaolnO.jpg[/img]
Right now both the flank route, and this alternate route lead to the point. If a player were to take this alternate route towards the point, people holding flank and main wouldn't be able to see them until they got to the point. I'd recommend removing this entrance and changing some of the opportunities it gives the attacking team. Also giving a visual to either flank or main if anyone is aggressing from the alternate route should help the defending team with fighting against it, as well as giving them some more reaction time (if you plan on putting a window, make sure it doesn't have immediate high ground over wherever the main holding position is).
[img]http://i.imgur.com/zlYtnAk.jpg[/img]
Walling this off separates the alternate route from choke a bit more, and should help with some future changes.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/9RKivjA.jpg[/img]
Right now, this choke is very open and doesn't have any direct routes leading into it from mid. Which also has the drawback of creating some pretty bad sight lines.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/d2FodWq.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/6t0zSmf.jpg[/img]
To fix that, creating a wall with an entrance closest to the camera, added with the other wall I above, should force players to come from one direction into the choke. This'll also remove any harsh sight lines coming into mid, since it closes off both entrances on both sides of the mid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/fsaeK8R.jpg[/img]
[Part 2]
Right now this high ground gives too much advantage to the players holding it. There's a health buffer, high ground, and a bridge to fall back to if they need to get ammo. The space between the bridge and the route to mid from here is also pretty small. Removing the high ground and the bridge should help the attacking team when aggressing mid.
http://i.imgur.com/dSkjDDy.jpg
If you remove the bridge, you could potentially put the entrance on lower ground anywhere. I'd recommend putting an entrance on the attacking team's side, though. That way they are still able to use the entrance for alternate decisions when attacking second.
http://i.imgur.com/URk4ePd.jpg
Your mid doesn't have any definite aggression supported by high ground, currently. This is where high ground supports attacking from right now, on your mid, and it isn't too controlled. The health packs would also support attacking from the dirt, but not very strongly. Also there isn't a health pack on the bottom right of this picture:
http://i.imgur.com/Xp3K3tB.jpg
One way you could attack this is by putting some form of high ground around this area on both sides of mid. Due to your map being fairly linear, it's pretty viable to go right or left on this mid, and putting high ground around these spots should support that.
http://i.imgur.com/5YUfbq1.jpg
An issue that comes up with doing this is that, if an enemy team sets up on one of these sides before you, and you've committed to that side, there's no easy way to attack them.
http://i.imgur.com/2TbWIw4.jpg
To fix that, you could potentially put a roof, or some kind of high ground around this location. Which allows players to aggress that high ground from closer high ground. It should also open up some other route options around this mid.
http://i.imgur.com/UTM7Lfz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5GvQsPj.jpg
With that in mind, I'd recommend getting rid of this crate above the point, too. It's a narrow hallway-like structure that gets a bit in the way of fighting.
http://i.imgur.com/AE9Jcd5.jpg
Right now this route is tight, and you have to fight high ground through most of it. To help being able to attack from this side, I'd suggest expanding it out and removing that ledge, as well as increasing how fast it gets up to the even ground on mid.
http://i.imgur.com/EMfGSnE.jpg
If you increase the general height around the mid point some, it leads into the other changes around the choke, and also gives some more viability to attacking the point in multiple directions.
http://i.imgur.com/PTRkMwm.jpg
Last thing for the mid: If you remove this wall and add some stairs here, it should help support the team coming from choke aggressing the high ground on the other team's side. It will also help to open up the mid a bit more.
http://i.imgur.com/DiZIBpV.jpg
You should still try to clip/block bullet these stairs, even though their model has vcollision. They have a little gap that can eat rockets and also hurt any jumps that lead into a surf off of them.
http://i.imgur.com/HuNRdFX.jpg
These hanging objects also have vcollision, which you'll probably want to get rid of so that they don't get in the way of players that might be jumping around these spots.
http://i.imgur.com/qazwqU7.jpg
These stairs have some bad vcollsion and you should clip them, instead. I'd also recommend making custom stairs, for these sets, since the textures are already in the game, and the metal stairs are set up like brushes anyways.
http://i.imgur.com/i96NrdU.jpg
Also, don't forget to try turning texture lock off, otherwise you get some wierd things with misaligned textures. Plus you probably won't like having to deal with this in the future, while you're detailing.
http://i.imgur.com/o3umDlu.jpg
In general, I'd recommend clipping all the basic stuff, like stairs and protrusions, that way it feels nicer to walk around the map as well as jump around it.
Lastly, when it comes to windows and things that you can see through, you generally want to balance them out by separating the view a bit away from the main fight, or giving them some kind of disadvantage when looking through them. The reason for that is that it gives both teams information that they can get without having to peak too far into the fight, so they don't have to surrender anything to learn information about the opposite team. This one specifically lets players view both teams from each of their holding positions, meaning neither of them will want to aggress into this location since the enemy team will instantly know that they're coming.
http://i.imgur.com/c3jxraa.jpg
But that's basically everything I've got. Wish ya the best of luck with the map!
[Part 2]
Right now this high ground gives too much advantage to the players holding it. There's a health buffer, high ground, and a bridge to fall back to if they need to get ammo. The space between the bridge and the route to mid from here is also pretty small. Removing the high ground and the bridge should help the attacking team when aggressing mid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/dSkjDDy.jpg[/img]
If you remove the bridge, you could potentially put the entrance on lower ground anywhere. I'd recommend putting an entrance on the attacking team's side, though. That way they are still able to use the entrance for alternate decisions when attacking second.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/URk4ePd.jpg[/img]
Your mid doesn't have any definite aggression supported by high ground, currently. This is where high ground supports attacking from right now, on your mid, and it isn't too controlled. The health packs would also support attacking from the dirt, but not very strongly. Also there isn't a health pack on the bottom right of this picture:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Xp3K3tB.jpg[/img]
One way you could attack this is by putting some form of high ground around this area on both sides of mid. Due to your map being fairly linear, it's pretty viable to go right or left on this mid, and putting high ground around these spots should support that.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/5YUfbq1.jpg[/img]
An issue that comes up with doing this is that, if an enemy team sets up on one of these sides before you, and you've committed to that side, there's no easy way to attack them.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/2TbWIw4.jpg[/img]
To fix that, you could potentially put a roof, or some kind of high ground around this location. Which allows players to aggress that high ground from closer high ground. It should also open up some other route options around this mid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/UTM7Lfz.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/5GvQsPj.jpg[/img]
With that in mind, I'd recommend getting rid of this crate above the point, too. It's a narrow hallway-like structure that gets a bit in the way of fighting.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/AE9Jcd5.jpg[/img]
Right now this route is tight, and you have to fight high ground through most of it. To help being able to attack from this side, I'd suggest expanding it out and removing that ledge, as well as increasing how fast it gets up to the even ground on mid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EMfGSnE.jpg[/img]
If you increase the general height around the mid point some, it leads into the other changes around the choke, and also gives some more viability to attacking the point in multiple directions.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/PTRkMwm.jpg[/img]
Last thing for the mid: If you remove this wall and add some stairs here, it should help support the team coming from choke aggressing the high ground on the other team's side. It will also help to open up the mid a bit more.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/DiZIBpV.jpg[/img]
You should still try to clip/block bullet these stairs, even though their model has vcollision. They have a little gap that can eat rockets and also hurt any jumps that lead into a surf off of them.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/HuNRdFX.jpg[/img]
These hanging objects also have vcollision, which you'll probably want to get rid of so that they don't get in the way of players that might be jumping around these spots.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/qazwqU7.jpg[/img]
These stairs have some bad vcollsion and you should clip them, instead. I'd also recommend making custom stairs, for these sets, since the textures are already in the game, and the metal stairs are set up like brushes anyways.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/i96NrdU.jpg[/img]
Also, don't forget to try turning texture lock off, otherwise you get some wierd things with misaligned textures. Plus you probably won't like having to deal with this in the future, while you're detailing.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/o3umDlu.jpg[/img]
In general, I'd recommend clipping all the basic stuff, like stairs and protrusions, that way it feels nicer to walk around the map as well as jump around it.
Lastly, when it comes to windows and things that you can see through, you generally want to balance them out by separating the view a bit away from the main fight, or giving them some kind of disadvantage when looking through them. The reason for that is that it gives both teams information that they can get without having to peak too far into the fight, so they don't have to surrender anything to learn information about the opposite team. This one specifically lets players view both teams from each of their holding positions, meaning neither of them will want to aggress into this location since the enemy team will instantly know that they're coming.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/c3jxraa.jpg[/img]
But that's basically everything I've got. Wish ya the best of luck with the map!
Right now this high ground gives too much advantage to the players holding it. There's a health buffer, high ground, and a bridge to fall back to if they need to get ammo. The space between the bridge and the route to mid from here is also pretty small. Removing the high ground and the bridge should help the attacking team when aggressing mid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/dSkjDDy.jpg[/img]
If you remove the bridge, you could potentially put the entrance on lower ground anywhere. I'd recommend putting an entrance on the attacking team's side, though. That way they are still able to use the entrance for alternate decisions when attacking second.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/URk4ePd.jpg[/img]
Your mid doesn't have any definite aggression supported by high ground, currently. This is where high ground supports attacking from right now, on your mid, and it isn't too controlled. The health packs would also support attacking from the dirt, but not very strongly. Also there isn't a health pack on the bottom right of this picture:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Xp3K3tB.jpg[/img]
One way you could attack this is by putting some form of high ground around this area on both sides of mid. Due to your map being fairly linear, it's pretty viable to go right or left on this mid, and putting high ground around these spots should support that.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/5YUfbq1.jpg[/img]
An issue that comes up with doing this is that, if an enemy team sets up on one of these sides before you, and you've committed to that side, there's no easy way to attack them.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/2TbWIw4.jpg[/img]
To fix that, you could potentially put a roof, or some kind of high ground around this location. Which allows players to aggress that high ground from closer high ground. It should also open up some other route options around this mid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/UTM7Lfz.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/5GvQsPj.jpg[/img]
With that in mind, I'd recommend getting rid of this crate above the point, too. It's a narrow hallway-like structure that gets a bit in the way of fighting.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/AE9Jcd5.jpg[/img]
Right now this route is tight, and you have to fight high ground through most of it. To help being able to attack from this side, I'd suggest expanding it out and removing that ledge, as well as increasing how fast it gets up to the even ground on mid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EMfGSnE.jpg[/img]
If you increase the general height around the mid point some, it leads into the other changes around the choke, and also gives some more viability to attacking the point in multiple directions.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/PTRkMwm.jpg[/img]
Last thing for the mid: If you remove this wall and add some stairs here, it should help support the team coming from choke aggressing the high ground on the other team's side. It will also help to open up the mid a bit more.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/DiZIBpV.jpg[/img]
You should still try to clip/block bullet these stairs, even though their model has vcollision. They have a little gap that can eat rockets and also hurt any jumps that lead into a surf off of them.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/HuNRdFX.jpg[/img]
These hanging objects also have vcollision, which you'll probably want to get rid of so that they don't get in the way of players that might be jumping around these spots.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/qazwqU7.jpg[/img]
These stairs have some bad vcollsion and you should clip them, instead. I'd also recommend making custom stairs, for these sets, since the textures are already in the game, and the metal stairs are set up like brushes anyways.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/i96NrdU.jpg[/img]
Also, don't forget to try turning texture lock off, otherwise you get some wierd things with misaligned textures. Plus you probably won't like having to deal with this in the future, while you're detailing.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/o3umDlu.jpg[/img]
In general, I'd recommend clipping all the basic stuff, like stairs and protrusions, that way it feels nicer to walk around the map as well as jump around it.
Lastly, when it comes to windows and things that you can see through, you generally want to balance them out by separating the view a bit away from the main fight, or giving them some kind of disadvantage when looking through them. The reason for that is that it gives both teams information that they can get without having to peak too far into the fight, so they don't have to surrender anything to learn information about the opposite team. This one specifically lets players view both teams from each of their holding positions, meaning neither of them will want to aggress into this location since the enemy team will instantly know that they're coming.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/c3jxraa.jpg[/img]
But that's basically everything I've got. Wish ya the best of luck with the map!
Once more, thank you for your feedback. Much thanks to Carn's extensive and well illustrated feedback, I've been able to work on the next version for the last few days.
cp_cargo_a3 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a3.bsp
Imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/Leisu
Changelog u3
General:
* Reworked pickup locations throughout the map
* Improved lighting throughout the map
* Improved clipping throughout the map
Last:
* Removed top exit from spawn
* Removed walkway above last
* Made the route behind last a bit tighter
* Lowered last in relation to the low ground
* Lowered the left side flank route
* Added a platform to the side of the point
* Made access to the top route easier
* Removed the massive high ground above last
* Reworked the right side flank route
Lobby:
* Reworked the lobby, reducing the height differences
* The connectors are now more protected
* Removed the right side lower route to 2
Second:
* Removed one set of crates near choke
* Moved the second set of crates closer to the point
* Made the central "house" route much less open
* Added a ramp to the left side route to lobby
* Added a ramp to the balcony
* Removed the route from house onto the point
* Added a ramp onto the point
* Reworked valley
* Added a little ledge as an extra access route to the point
Mid:
* Made the choke much less open
* Removed the high ground overlooking valley
* Removed the bridge near valley
* Reworked the house
* Added some crates and roofs on mid for more height variance
* Changed the choke-house connector to be a window for bombs
* Replaced the crate over point with some hanging platforms
Huge changes all around. The main theme of this version has been to implement Carn et al's theory of holding positions and choke points, and try to define the battlegrounds of the map better. Furthermore, the two levels of the map have been somewhat evened out and better connected.
The mid point is the one which is most experimental at this point. Please give me any thoughts and feedback on this area.
I'm looking to iterate quite rapidly over the next couple of days, so please submit your feedback and I'll be sure to try to implement it in the next version. I have a feeling that the map is nearing a stage where it's worthwhile to conduct a proper 6v6 test shortly.
Cheers,
chojje
Once more, thank you for your feedback. Much thanks to Carn's extensive and well illustrated feedback, I've been able to work on the next version for the last few days.
[size=16]cp_cargo_a3 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a3.bsp
Imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/Leisu[/size]
[u]Changelog u3
General:[/u]
* Reworked pickup locations throughout the map
* Improved lighting throughout the map
* Improved clipping throughout the map
[u]Last:[/u]
* Removed top exit from spawn
* Removed walkway above last
* Made the route behind last a bit tighter
* Lowered last in relation to the low ground
* Lowered the left side flank route
* Added a platform to the side of the point
* Made access to the top route easier
* Removed the massive high ground above last
* Reworked the right side flank route
[u]Lobby:[/u]
* Reworked the lobby, reducing the height differences
* The connectors are now more protected
* Removed the right side lower route to 2
[u]Second:[/u]
* Removed one set of crates near choke
* Moved the second set of crates closer to the point
* Made the central "house" route much less open
* Added a ramp to the left side route to lobby
* Added a ramp to the balcony
* Removed the route from house onto the point
* Added a ramp onto the point
* Reworked valley
* Added a little ledge as an extra access route to the point
[u]Mid:[/u]
* Made the choke much less open
* Removed the high ground overlooking valley
* Removed the bridge near valley
* Reworked the house
* Added some crates and roofs on mid for more height variance
* Changed the choke-house connector to be a window for bombs
* Replaced the crate over point with some hanging platforms
Huge changes all around. The main theme of this version has been to implement Carn et al's theory of holding positions and choke points, and try to define the battlegrounds of the map better. Furthermore, the two levels of the map have been somewhat evened out and better connected.
The mid point is the one which is most experimental at this point. Please give me any thoughts and feedback on this area.
I'm looking to iterate quite rapidly over the next couple of days, so please submit your feedback and I'll be sure to try to implement it in the next version. I have a feeling that the map is nearing a stage where it's worthwhile to conduct a proper 6v6 test shortly.
Cheers,
chojje
[size=16]cp_cargo_a3 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a3.bsp
Imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/Leisu[/size]
[u]Changelog u3
General:[/u]
* Reworked pickup locations throughout the map
* Improved lighting throughout the map
* Improved clipping throughout the map
[u]Last:[/u]
* Removed top exit from spawn
* Removed walkway above last
* Made the route behind last a bit tighter
* Lowered last in relation to the low ground
* Lowered the left side flank route
* Added a platform to the side of the point
* Made access to the top route easier
* Removed the massive high ground above last
* Reworked the right side flank route
[u]Lobby:[/u]
* Reworked the lobby, reducing the height differences
* The connectors are now more protected
* Removed the right side lower route to 2
[u]Second:[/u]
* Removed one set of crates near choke
* Moved the second set of crates closer to the point
* Made the central "house" route much less open
* Added a ramp to the left side route to lobby
* Added a ramp to the balcony
* Removed the route from house onto the point
* Added a ramp onto the point
* Reworked valley
* Added a little ledge as an extra access route to the point
[u]Mid:[/u]
* Made the choke much less open
* Removed the high ground overlooking valley
* Removed the bridge near valley
* Reworked the house
* Added some crates and roofs on mid for more height variance
* Changed the choke-house connector to be a window for bombs
* Replaced the crate over point with some hanging platforms
Huge changes all around. The main theme of this version has been to implement Carn et al's theory of holding positions and choke points, and try to define the battlegrounds of the map better. Furthermore, the two levels of the map have been somewhat evened out and better connected.
The mid point is the one which is most experimental at this point. Please give me any thoughts and feedback on this area.
I'm looking to iterate quite rapidly over the next couple of days, so please submit your feedback and I'll be sure to try to implement it in the next version. I have a feeling that the map is nearing a stage where it's worthwhile to conduct a proper 6v6 test shortly.
Cheers,
chojje
Thanks to Carn and Beater's great feedback, here's a4 ready.
cp_cargo_a4 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a4.bsp
Imgur album: TBA
Changelog a4
Last/lobby:
* Removed top left route
* Added a larger platform at the top right route
* Removed healthkit and ammo
* Blocked off the top left route in lobby
* Removed some clutter
* Moved the right side flank route
Second:
* Simplified the ramp onto balcony
* Moved the barrier behind the platform near choke
* Reworked pickup locations
* The point is now jumpable from balcony
Mid:
* Removed top platforms
* Increased height of crates
* Slightly widened the valley
* Moved healthkits into the valley
The largest changes are to last and the lobby, to make the different routes play with more integrity. Looking forward to your feedback!
Cheers,
chojje
Thanks to Carn and Beater's great feedback, here's a4 ready.
[size=16]cp_cargo_a4 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a4.bsp
Imgur album: TBA[/size]
[u]Changelog a4
Last/lobby:[/u]
* Removed top left route
* Added a larger platform at the top right route
* Removed healthkit and ammo
* Blocked off the top left route in lobby
* Removed some clutter
* Moved the right side flank route
[u]Second:[/u]
* Simplified the ramp onto balcony
* Moved the barrier behind the platform near choke
* Reworked pickup locations
* The point is now jumpable from balcony
[u]Mid:[/u]
* Removed top platforms
* Increased height of crates
* Slightly widened the valley
* Moved healthkits into the valley
The largest changes are to last and the lobby, to make the different routes play with more integrity. Looking forward to your feedback!
Cheers,
chojje
[size=16]cp_cargo_a4 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a4.bsp
Imgur album: TBA[/size]
[u]Changelog a4
Last/lobby:[/u]
* Removed top left route
* Added a larger platform at the top right route
* Removed healthkit and ammo
* Blocked off the top left route in lobby
* Removed some clutter
* Moved the right side flank route
[u]Second:[/u]
* Simplified the ramp onto balcony
* Moved the barrier behind the platform near choke
* Reworked pickup locations
* The point is now jumpable from balcony
[u]Mid:[/u]
* Removed top platforms
* Increased height of crates
* Slightly widened the valley
* Moved healthkits into the valley
The largest changes are to last and the lobby, to make the different routes play with more integrity. Looking forward to your feedback!
Cheers,
chojje
Let's try this new map cp_cargo_a4 in a tf2center: https://tf2center.com/lobbies/730406 (EU)
Started already
Let's try this new map cp_cargo_a4 in a tf2center: https://tf2center.com/lobbies/730406 (EU)
Started already
Started already
I've made some small changes, here's a5:
cp_cargo_a5 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a5.bsp
Imgur album: N/A
Changelog a5
General
* New sky and light settings
Last/lobby:
* Removed the barrier near the shed
* Removed the shelf in lobby
Second:
* Tweaked the valley
* Removed some obstructive crates on yard
* Widened the choke and added a little ramp
I'm currently looking to rework last completely as the last major change before going into beta phase! If anybody would be interested in a tf2center test, hit me up on steam!
Cheers,
chojje
I've made some small changes, here's a5:
[size=16]cp_cargo_a5 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a5.bsp
Imgur album: N/A[/size]
[u]Changelog a5
General[/u]
* New sky and light settings
[u]Last/lobby:[/u]
* Removed the barrier near the shed
* Removed the shelf in lobby
[u]Second:[/u]
* Tweaked the valley
* Removed some obstructive crates on yard
* Widened the choke and added a little ramp
I'm currently looking to rework last completely as the last major change before going into beta phase! If anybody would be interested in a tf2center test, hit me up on steam!
Cheers,
chojje
[size=16]cp_cargo_a5 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_cargo_a5.bsp
Imgur album: N/A[/size]
[u]Changelog a5
General[/u]
* New sky and light settings
[u]Last/lobby:[/u]
* Removed the barrier near the shed
* Removed the shelf in lobby
[u]Second:[/u]
* Tweaked the valley
* Removed some obstructive crates on yard
* Widened the choke and added a little ramp
I'm currently looking to rework last completely as the last major change before going into beta phase! If anybody would be interested in a tf2center test, hit me up on steam!
Cheers,
chojje
There are a lot of gaps that eat rockets and pipes, especially all the gaps between the crates in the crate stacks.
There are a lot of gaps that eat rockets and pipes, especially all the gaps between the crates in the crate stacks.
ContraI think a good idea to reduce concerns of 2nd/last being too easily attackable (while still enabling fast rollouts for all classes) is by simply shutting off certain doors and shutters depending on what points are capped.
For instance, simply keeping everything open while everyone goes to mid is fine, but the fast rollout paths can make holding 2nd really difficult...perhaps closing off the one that's in the dead middle after mid is capped could be a solution?
I think that would work but, one or two of the lobby (between last and 2nd) entrances should be taken away.
[quote=Contra]I think a good idea to reduce concerns of 2nd/last being too easily attackable (while still enabling fast rollouts for all classes) is by simply shutting off certain doors and shutters depending on what points are capped.
For instance, simply keeping everything open while everyone goes to mid is fine, but the fast rollout paths can make holding 2nd really difficult...perhaps closing off the one that's in the dead middle after mid is capped could be a solution?[/quote]
I think that would work but, one or two of the lobby (between last and 2nd) entrances should be taken away.
For instance, simply keeping everything open while everyone goes to mid is fine, but the fast rollout paths can make holding 2nd really difficult...perhaps closing off the one that's in the dead middle after mid is capped could be a solution?[/quote]
I think that would work but, one or two of the lobby (between last and 2nd) entrances should be taken away.
SmytherThere are a lot of gaps that eat rockets and pipes, especially all the gaps between the crates in the crate stacks.
I am aware of this, but I haven't spent too much time on minor issues like this until I'm settled on the general layout. For the beta version, all of these errors should be fixed.
[quote=Smyther]There are a lot of gaps that eat rockets and pipes, especially all the gaps between the crates in the crate stacks.[/quote]
I am aware of this, but I haven't spent too much time on minor issues like this until I'm settled on the general layout. For the beta version, all of these errors should be fixed.
I am aware of this, but I haven't spent too much time on minor issues like this until I'm settled on the general layout. For the beta version, all of these errors should be fixed.
Hi chojje, I love the map
I made a video of a playtest of cp_cargo_a5
https://youtu.be/0BBU08WKWm8
I hope you can use the gameplay in the video to analyze what you really want out of cp_cargo
I'm going to sum up all of my personal points here:
-sniper sightlines on last are too long for me
-too many routes are covered up and make it easy to close distances around mid (this one is really subjective so you could probably ignore me here)
-sac'ing from mid to 2nd is difficult due to the spam angles and map geometry
Looking forward to beta dude :)
Hi chojje, I love the map
I made a video of a playtest of cp_cargo_a5
https://youtu.be/0BBU08WKWm8
I hope you can use the gameplay in the video to analyze what you really want out of cp_cargo
I'm going to sum up all of my personal points here:
-sniper sightlines on last are too long for me
-too many routes are covered up and make it easy to close distances around mid (this one is really subjective so you could probably ignore me here)
-sac'ing from mid to 2nd is difficult due to the spam angles and map geometry
Looking forward to beta dude :)
I made a video of a playtest of cp_cargo_a5
https://youtu.be/0BBU08WKWm8
I hope you can use the gameplay in the video to analyze what you really want out of cp_cargo
I'm going to sum up all of my personal points here:
-sniper sightlines on last are too long for me
-too many routes are covered up and make it easy to close distances around mid (this one is really subjective so you could probably ignore me here)
-sac'ing from mid to 2nd is difficult due to the spam angles and map geometry
Looking forward to beta dude :)
(Just post the demo so he can look around on his own)
(Just post the demo so he can look around on his own)
Thank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje
Thank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje
Lain(Just post the demo so he can look around on his own)
chojjeThank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935
[quote=Lain](Just post the demo so he can look around on his own)[/quote]
[quote=chojje]Thank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje[/quote]
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935
[quote=chojje]Thank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje[/quote]
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935
diamond0wnerLain(Just post the demo so he can look around on his own)chojjeThank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935
Hvala lepo,
Really enjoyed your playthrough video as well!!
Putting some work into a6 right now - the main focus will be some manner of rework at last, to improve the area around the point.
[quote=diamond0wner][quote=Lain](Just post the demo so he can look around on his own)[/quote]
[quote=chojje]Thank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje[/quote]
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935[/quote]
Hvala lepo,
Really enjoyed your playthrough video as well!!
Putting some work into a6 right now - the main focus will be some manner of rework at last, to improve the area around the point.
[quote=chojje]Thank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje[/quote]
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935[/quote]
Hvala lepo,
Really enjoyed your playthrough video as well!!
Putting some work into a6 right now - the main focus will be some manner of rework at last, to improve the area around the point.
chojjediamond0wnerLain(Just post the demo so he can look around on his own)chojjeThank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935
Hvala lepo,
Really enjoyed your playthrough video as well!!
Putting some work into a6 right now - the main focus will be some manner of rework at last, to improve the area around the point.
In my humblest opinion after a6 you should probably wait for proper playtesting before updating any more.
[quote=chojje][quote=diamond0wner][quote=Lain](Just post the demo so he can look around on his own)[/quote]
[quote=chojje]Thank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje[/quote]
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935[/quote]
Hvala lepo,
Really enjoyed your playthrough video as well!!
Putting some work into a6 right now - the main focus will be some manner of rework at last, to improve the area around the point.[/quote]
In my humblest opinion after a6 you should probably wait for proper playtesting before updating any more.
[quote=chojje]Thank you for the feedback,
As you might have noticed the updates are a bit slow at the moment - I've just relocated and started at a new workplace, so I've had a lot on my mind as it is. I'm looking forward to putting out a6 this weekend, so if there's any feedback or thoughts after the recent playtesting, now's a great time to put it forward.
Cheers,
chojje[/quote]
Here ya go http://sizzlingstats.com/stats/486935[/quote]
Hvala lepo,
Really enjoyed your playthrough video as well!!
Putting some work into a6 right now - the main focus will be some manner of rework at last, to improve the area around the point.[/quote]
In my humblest opinion after a6 you should probably wait for proper playtesting before updating any more.
Are you still planning on updating this? I wanted to playtest it tomorrow but if you're not there's no reason to. I've added you on steam if you wanna talk more
Are you still planning on updating this? I wanted to playtest it tomorrow but if you're not there's no reason to. I've added you on steam if you wanna talk more
saamAre you still planning on updating this? I wanted to playtest it tomorrow but if you're not there's no reason to. I've added you on steam if you wanna talk more
I sure am! The recent weeks have been hectic otherwise than mapping, but I have been making some slow progress toward a6 in the last couple of days. I'd love to talk in Steam - I'll try to chat you when I get an opportunity.
[quote=saam]Are you still planning on updating this? I wanted to playtest it tomorrow but if you're not there's no reason to. I've added you on steam if you wanna talk more[/quote]
I sure am! The recent weeks have been hectic otherwise than mapping, but I have been making some slow progress toward a6 in the last couple of days. I'd love to talk in Steam - I'll try to chat you when I get an opportunity.
I sure am! The recent weeks have been hectic otherwise than mapping, but I have been making some slow progress toward a6 in the last couple of days. I'd love to talk in Steam - I'll try to chat you when I get an opportunity.
Well, 3 months later we finally got pugs going and played your map.
- Mid cut use another health kit on the other side. The combo is forced to rollout the opposite side from the demo or they get to mid too late, so the demo either has to have 0 impact on mid and rollout really slow or risk being killed in the first seconds of the fight.
- Second point feels impossible to hold. The combo has to play super far up on the right or the attackers can walk in for free, but that leaves the flank totally free to be walked at and isolated. The other option is for the flank to hold back on point but that gives up so much room for free uncontested bombs.
- The sniper sightline from attacker's left side on to the crates is ludicrous and makes last impossible to hold effectively.
Looking forward to seeing what you do with this.
Well, 3 months later we finally got pugs going and played your map.
- Mid cut use another health kit on the other side. The combo is forced to rollout the opposite side from the demo or they get to mid too late, so the demo either has to have 0 impact on mid and rollout really slow or risk being killed in the first seconds of the fight.
- Second point feels impossible to hold. The combo has to play super far up on the right or the attackers can walk in for free, but that leaves the flank totally free to be walked at and isolated. The other option is for the flank to hold back on point but that gives up so much room for free uncontested bombs.
- The sniper sightline from attacker's left side on to the crates is ludicrous and makes last impossible to hold effectively.
Looking forward to seeing what you do with this.
- Mid cut use another health kit on the other side. The combo is forced to rollout the opposite side from the demo or they get to mid too late, so the demo either has to have 0 impact on mid and rollout really slow or risk being killed in the first seconds of the fight.
- Second point feels impossible to hold. The combo has to play super far up on the right or the attackers can walk in for free, but that leaves the flank totally free to be walked at and isolated. The other option is for the flank to hold back on point but that gives up so much room for free uncontested bombs.
- The sniper sightline from attacker's left side on to the crates is ludicrous and makes last impossible to hold effectively.
Looking forward to seeing what you do with this.
maxc232we should have put this in the cup :\
We discussed about it when we try to settle with the map pool. In my personal opinion I didn't like how some of the map flows, while saam disliked it either, and there's a lack of updates during the past month or so, that's why we didn't put cargo on the cup.
[quote=maxc232]we should have put this in the cup :\[/quote]
We discussed about it when we try to settle with the map pool. In my personal opinion I didn't like how some of the map flows, while saam disliked it either, and there's a lack of updates during the past month or so, that's why we didn't put cargo on the cup.
We discussed about it when we try to settle with the map pool. In my personal opinion I didn't like how some of the map flows, while saam disliked it either, and there's a lack of updates during the past month or so, that's why we didn't put cargo on the cup.
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