As i58 wraps up, well done to Crowns to for winning the tournament, I thought about how in my opinion having a coach gave a team an unfair advantage. I mean i am not saying it made a huge difference cause most of the games were pretty close. Kaidus himself said it after the UBF "I call everything" "i coordinate what to do next". Kaidus is a great TF2 player and has been main caller for a lot of time and i think that gave Crowns an unfair advantage. i mean think about it for a minute ok? Six players are playing a game of TF2 and they have to concentrate on: playing well and not making mistakes.
The coach only has to focus on the errors and what to do next. I think its a pretty noticeable advantage.
If players are under pressure due to atmosphere and the setting this may lead them to make errors but with a coach that reduces to a minimum because he has to focus only on what to do next and not on playing. For example a team has successfully defended last point and wants to push out they forget a player is alive in the confusion and killfeed and leave the point undefended. Outcome: Backcap and round loss. If a team has a coach he can one, calculate who is alive cause he doesn't need to focus on killing people, two, notice the threat of a backcap and therefore tell the team to leave a man on the point.
This is not taking any merit away from crowns because they played well all tournament. This is my opinion and would like to know what the community thinks of the matter.
As i58 wraps up, well done to Crowns to for winning the tournament, I thought about how in my opinion having a coach gave a team an unfair advantage. I mean i am not saying it made a huge difference cause most of the games were pretty close. Kaidus himself said it after the UBF "I call everything" "i coordinate what to do next". Kaidus is a great TF2 player and has been main caller for a lot of time and i think that gave Crowns an unfair advantage. i mean think about it for a minute ok? Six players are playing a game of TF2 and they have to concentrate on: playing well and not making mistakes.
The coach only has to focus on the errors and what to do next. I think its a pretty noticeable advantage.
If players are under pressure due to atmosphere and the setting this may lead them to make errors but with a coach that reduces to a minimum because he has to focus only on what to do next and not on playing. For example a team has successfully defended last point and wants to push out they forget a player is alive in the confusion and killfeed and leave the point undefended. Outcome: Backcap and round loss. If a team has a coach he can one, calculate who is alive cause he doesn't need to focus on killing people, two, notice the threat of a backcap and therefore tell the team to leave a man on the point.
This is not taking any merit away from crowns because they played well all tournament. This is my opinion and would like to know what the community thinks of the matter.
ya i agree honestly you could get 6 dm lords and a coach who keeps track of ubers, players, and calls pushes and you've got yourself a good team
coaches should be allowed to discuss with their team and help come up with good strats as long as it's not during a match
ya i agree honestly you could get 6 dm lords and a coach who keeps track of ubers, players, and calls pushes and you've got yourself a good team
coaches should be allowed to discuss with their team and help come up with good strats as long as it's not during a match
I also agree. A coach should not be the be the person maincalling for 6 players on the server because as stated above those 6 players just have to focus on dm and a few calls here and there while that 7th in-game player would be doing the calling and against a 6 man team with no coach that is unfair. A coach should be the person to offer strategies and moral support to players before and after matches only.
I also agree. A coach should not be the be the person maincalling for 6 players on the server because as stated above those 6 players just have to focus on dm and a few calls here and there while that 7th in-game player would be doing the calling and against a 6 man team with no coach that is unfair. A coach should be the person to offer strategies and moral support to players before and after matches only.
But every other esport has a coach come on guys just fall in line
But every other esport has a coach come on guys just fall in line
aim-But every other esport has a coach come on guys just fall in line
I don't think it means we should just blindly follow, fair enough we all want TF2 to get the recognition it deserves and become a proper Esport, but the way it has been purely community ran, I think we should have a fair say in the matter. I like that TF2 can just do its own thing, it's what makes it so refreshing compared to other games.
[quote=aim-]But every other esport has a coach come on guys just fall in line[/quote]
I don't think it means we should just blindly follow, fair enough we all want TF2 to get the recognition it deserves and become a proper Esport, but the way it has been purely community ran, I think we should have a fair say in the matter. I like that TF2 can just do its own thing, it's what makes it so refreshing compared to other games.
aim-But every other esport has a coach come on guys just fall in line
Coaches outside of games and during half times and pauses yes. No other game has ingame coaches. CS did but valve just kiboshed that in the last month. Coaches are finale and a good idea, coaches that act as a 7th man ingame are retarded.
[quote=aim-]But every other esport has a coach come on guys just fall in line[/quote]
Coaches outside of games and during half times and pauses yes. No other game has ingame coaches. CS did but valve just kiboshed that in the last month. Coaches are finale and a good idea, coaches that act as a 7th man ingame are retarded.
Why should we fall in line? I feel imo that the team captain should already be filling the role of a coach any way tbh. So why do we suddenly need a coach after comp tf2 has been going on for how long already? That would be my counter argument but if we do get coaches then there is my view on what coaches should be doing above. ^
Why should we fall in line? I feel imo that the team captain should already be filling the role of a coach any way tbh. So why do we suddenly need a coach after comp tf2 has been going on for how long already? That would be my counter argument but if we do get coaches then there is my view on what coaches should be doing above. ^
honestly whats the point of a player within the combo, pocket/medic/demo who can't main call
especially medic because youre such an important class
honestly whats the point of a player within the combo, pocket/medic/demo who can't main call
especially medic because youre such an important class
CSGO just banned all coaches at majors for exactly this reason.
CSGO just banned all coaches at majors for exactly this reason.
How many times has this conversation been had again? Because I feel like this certainly hasn't been the first (or even second) time that this topic has been discussed.
Also, wasn't the point that was made was something along the lines of "if the other team allows it, then its okay"? I may be wrong on that but I feel like if the coach is just first person spectating the players and not going into any third person views it can be justified.
If crowns had their DHS lineup with Stark on pocket and Kaptain on scout, there would possibly have been a much different outcome to i58, with crowns maybe not even making it past froyo (anything is possible in speculation though). But I don't think it should be a total allow/ban thing because it affects all sorts of teams differently. I think if a team allows it, then that's their decision and vice versa.
How many times has this conversation been had again? Because I feel like this certainly hasn't been the first (or even second) time that this topic has been discussed.
Also, wasn't the point that was made was something along the lines of "if the other team allows it, then its okay"? I may be wrong on that but I feel like if the coach is just first person spectating the players and not going into any third person views it can be justified.
If crowns had their DHS lineup with Stark on pocket and Kaptain on scout, there would possibly have been a much different outcome to i58, with crowns maybe not even making it past froyo (anything is possible in speculation though). But I don't think it should be a total allow/ban thing because it affects all sorts of teams differently. I think if a team allows it, then that's their decision and vice versa.
trucksCSGO just banned all coaches at majors for exactly this reason.
Ya Valve did from tournaments that they back. I also agree with Sops. If you don't have a maincaller (preferably in your combo) then how can you expect to even get any where as a team? If I had the option of playing with a med who was a caller like KnoxXx and someone like Raymon( Just in terms of calling not skill-wise ok? Raymon is good) and my team didn't have a caller then I would pick up KnoxXx instead of Raymon because we need a caller.
[quote=trucks]CSGO just banned all coaches at majors for exactly this reason.[/quote]
Ya Valve did from tournaments that they back. I also agree with Sops. If you don't have a maincaller (preferably in your combo) then how can you expect to even get any where as a team? If I had the option of playing with a med who was a caller like KnoxXx and someone like Raymon( Just in terms of calling not skill-wise ok? Raymon is good) and my team didn't have a caller then I would pick up KnoxXx instead of Raymon because we need a caller.
Having a coach that can maincall and coordinate flank and combo while seeing every perspective on the team is retarded.
Main calling is incredibly gamesense and skill dependent and the right calls can make or break a game. Having to coordinate your team while comming effectively with them is part of the skillcap of tf2.
Having one person just call while the rest of the team can jut focus on fragging lowers the skillcap of the game and is obnoxious because now every other team would need to grab a 7th player just to ensure that they aren't at an unfair disadvantage.
Having a coach that can maincall and coordinate flank and combo while seeing every perspective on the team is retarded.
Main calling is incredibly gamesense and skill dependent and the right calls can make or break a game. Having to coordinate your team while comming effectively with them is part of the skillcap of tf2.
Having one person just call while the rest of the team can jut focus on fragging lowers the skillcap of the game and is obnoxious because now every other team would need to grab a 7th player just to ensure that they aren't at an unfair disadvantage.
KonceptAlso, wasn't the point that was made was something along the lines of "if the other team allows it, then its okay"? I may be wrong on that but I feel like if the coach is just first person spectating the players and not going into any third person views it can be justified.
If crowns had their DHS lineup with Stark on pocket and Kaptain on scout, there would possibly have been a much different outcome to i58, with crowns maybe not even making it past froyo (anything is possible in speculation though). But I don't think it should be a total allow/ban thing because it affects all sorts of teams differently. I think if a team allows it, then that's their decision and vice versa.
If we allow coaches to maincall based on the other team's decision, we might at a point see the same problems that occurred with Vinland in season 14 or 15. There was a plugin that allowed players to change their fov after OpenPlugin was banned, and you could either be ok with it or deny the right to use it to the other team. Darn was playing with a higher fov, and eventually Crack Clan didn't allow him to change his fov. Drama followed, and any fov changing was permanently banned shortly after.
I think coaches should only be able to give some tips and strats to their team during pre-game and in-between maps. Giving them the right to maincall is pushing the thing too far imo and removes an important aspect from the game.
[quote=Koncept]Also, wasn't the point that was made was something along the lines of "if the other team allows it, then its okay"? I may be wrong on that but I feel like if the coach is just first person spectating the players and not going into any third person views it can be justified.
If crowns had their DHS lineup with Stark on pocket and Kaptain on scout, there would possibly have been a much different outcome to i58, with crowns maybe not even making it past froyo (anything is possible in speculation though). But I don't think it should be a total allow/ban thing because it affects all sorts of teams differently. I think if a team allows it, then that's their decision and vice versa.[/quote]
If we allow coaches to maincall based on the other team's decision, we might at a point see the same problems that occurred with Vinland in season 14 or 15. There was a plugin that allowed players to change their fov after OpenPlugin was banned, and you could either be ok with it or deny the right to use it to the other team. Darn was playing with a higher fov, and eventually Crack Clan didn't allow him to change his fov. Drama followed, and any fov changing was permanently banned shortly after.
I think coaches should only be able to give some tips and strats to their team during pre-game and in-between maps. Giving them the right to maincall is pushing the thing too far imo and removes an important aspect from the game.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL7I9BWFqdk[/youtube]
Either every team should have a coach or none should, and it's too expensive for non-euros to bring a coach along.
Either every team should have a coach or none should, and it's too expensive for non-euros to bring a coach along.
Wait, coaches had 3rd person? I must have missed that.
How is there even any discussion about this? Taunts that allow players to have 3rd person for a few seconds are banned lmao.
Wait, coaches had 3rd person? I must have missed that.
How is there even any discussion about this? Taunts that allow players to have 3rd person for a few seconds are banned lmao.
people will probably not agree but i honestly think FT would have won i58 if crowns didnt have kaidus calling everything for them.
people will probably not agree but i honestly think FT would have won i58 if crowns didnt have kaidus calling everything for them.
Crowns did something no one else did in line of the rules and it worked. Its pretty much the first time its happened in 9 years of the game existing so ofc people will be startled when something new works pretty effectively. None of the teams we're outspoken about it so it must have not been such an issue to the other teams competing. I bet you any money if Crowns were eliminated earlier in the tournament we wouldn't be having this discussion, but since its the only unique part of a team that won the entire tourney ofc people are gonna discuss/complain/defend about it.
Crowns did something no one else did in line of the rules and it worked. Its pretty much the first time its happened in 9 years of the game existing so ofc people will be startled when something new works pretty effectively. None of the teams we're outspoken about it so it must have not been such an issue to the other teams competing. I bet you any money if Crowns were eliminated earlier in the tournament we wouldn't be having this discussion, but since its the only unique part of a team that won the entire tourney ofc people are gonna discuss/complain/defend about it.
trucksCSGO just banned all coaches at majors for exactly this reason.
Not exactly. They had issue with the coaches basically being a 6th player calling all pushes, tracking the economy, always being able to comm. It created a scene where established teams with coaches had a big advantage that was hard to compete with, especially with how a lot of the major teams started to get the Coach to maincall. Valve made a rule for all future Valve tournaments to restrict communication between coaches and the players to timeouts and between maps. This way the players still need to keep track of the economy and decide pushes for themselves outside of the tactical timeouts.
Honestly I think this would be a good compromise to TF2 as well provided people don't pause all the time, and people actually enforce the pause limits that are set in the ruleset of each league.
Tldr; I don't think having a coach is an issue, it's that he's allowed to always stay in mumble/TS and communicate with the players during gameplay.
[quote=trucks]CSGO just banned all coaches at majors for exactly this reason.[/quote]
Not exactly. They had issue with the coaches basically being a 6th player calling all pushes, tracking the economy, always being able to comm. It created a scene where established teams with coaches had a big advantage that was hard to compete with, especially with how a lot of the major teams started to get the Coach to maincall. Valve made a rule for all future Valve tournaments to restrict communication between coaches and the players to timeouts and between maps. This way the players still need to keep track of the economy and decide pushes for themselves outside of the tactical timeouts.
Honestly I think this would be a good compromise to TF2 as well provided people don't pause all the time, and people actually enforce the pause limits that are set in the ruleset of each league.
Tldr; I don't think having a coach is an issue, it's that he's allowed to always stay in mumble/TS and communicate with the players during gameplay.
I'd like to know if kaidus had access to the spectator hud. As in, could he see the health of every player on his team at the same time similar to when you are dead? If so that seems crazy unfair to be given information that should be impossible for a single player to have access to while still having 6 players alive.
I'd like to know if kaidus had access to the spectator hud. As in, could he see the health of every player on his team at the same time similar to when you are dead? If so that seems crazy unfair to be given information that should be impossible for a single player to have access to while still having 6 players alive.
yes but if you ask crowns if they had an unfair advantage they will tell you that the other teams could have gone out and gotten a coach to do the same exact thing, which is more or less a valid point
personally I think the entire concept of a coach is dumb and shouldn't be allowed because it's effectively ghosting
yes but if you ask crowns if they had an unfair advantage they will tell you that the other teams could have gone out and gotten a coach to do the same exact thing, which is more or less a valid point
personally I think the entire concept of a coach is dumb and shouldn't be allowed because it's effectively ghosting
https://imgur.com/gallery/LYdzr
I think the coach should not be able to call anything during a game.
He should sit behind his 6 players, watch them and between maps advice his team on how they play.
Sitting side by side and doing live calls is too much i think.
I think the coach should not be able to call anything during a game.
He should sit behind his 6 players, watch them and between maps advice his team on how they play.
Sitting side by side and doing live calls is too much i think.
coaches DO NOT have access to 3rd person camera/spectator hud, there's a coaching plugin developed that limits you to one team's povs
coaches DO NOT have access to 3rd person camera/spectator hud, there's a coaching plugin developed that limits you to one team's povs
coaching cant be unfair, the aussies couldn't get past 4th without a coach (immunity) or with a coach (Jasmine with me)
coaching cant be unfair, the aussies couldn't get past 4th without a coach (immunity) or with a coach (Jasmine with me)
The perspective that was brought on another thread, about how coaches could "bring out a new type of player", giving people that are good with tactics but not DM a place, made me rethink my instance on this. Maybe it could be allowed, as long as in international LANs it's possible for every team to have one. Otherwise it's unfair and casts doubts over the results.
Really though, I don't see how it makes sense to argue that there's virtually no difference, like people seem to have been doing. When it's either unfair or useless it shouldn't be allowed, lol
Feel for Kaidus however :(
The perspective that was brought on another thread, about how coaches could "bring out a new type of player", giving people that are good with tactics but not DM a place, made me rethink my instance on this. Maybe it could be allowed, as long as in international LANs it's possible for every team to have one. Otherwise it's unfair and casts doubts over the results.
Really though, I don't see how it makes sense to argue that there's virtually no difference, like people seem to have been doing. When it's either unfair or useless it shouldn't be allowed, lol
Feel for Kaidus however :(
rmthttps://imgur.com/gallery/LYdzr
hwat? Froyo lost to Full Tilt tho??
[quote=rmt]https://imgur.com/gallery/LYdzr[/quote]
hwat? Froyo lost to Full Tilt tho??
hektikThe perspective that was brought on another thread, about how coaches could "bring out a new type of player", giving people that are good with tactics but not DM a place, made me rethink my instance on this. Maybe it could be allowed, as long as in international LANs it's possible for every team to have one. Otherwise it's unfair and casts doubts over the results.
Really though, I don't see how it makes sense to argue that there's virtually no difference, like people seem to have been doing. When it's either unfair or useless it shouldn't be allowed, lol
Feel for Kaidus however :(
People who are good with tactics but not DM already have a place, there's a whole class dedicated to supporting your team and not DM'ing.
[quote=hektik]The perspective that was brought on another thread, about how coaches could "bring out a new type of player", giving people that are good with tactics but not DM a place, made me rethink my instance on this. Maybe it could be allowed, as long as in international LANs it's possible for every team to have one. Otherwise it's unfair and casts doubts over the results.
Really though, I don't see how it makes sense to argue that there's virtually no difference, like people seem to have been doing. When it's either unfair or useless it shouldn't be allowed, lol
Feel for Kaidus however :([/quote]
People who are good with tactics but not DM already have a place, there's a whole class dedicated to supporting your team and not DM'ing.
IN GAME COACHES UNFAIR
EUROPEANS ARE IN THERE
IN GAME COACHES UNFAIR
EUROPEANS ARE IN THERE