now u can throw jar of piss in choke before pushing

I wouldn't say useless. Very strong in situations where the deviation doesn't matter, like holding last. Very good at that sort of thing. Also probably map dependant.

Just a random frag clip, but imagine you try to dry push then this happens.

Holy fuck, atomizer is allowed in 6s? Gonna feel bad for all soldier mains getting destroyed by scouts

feel bad for everyone who isn't a scout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCPfKrM0RB0&index=44&list=UUZ8ipI--tWALXq30lT9usGw

it isn't a big deal IMO, we can counter the atomizer scouts with mini sentries and natascha heavies.
then counter those full time heavies with piss snipers or something

The strategy of this game is now about countering things and not playing better than the people using them

we're overwatch now except with no money

I feel bad for scouts too because a mechanic like that just isn't fun.

I really don't understand the logic of "if people find weapons are too powerful, then Valve will fix them". It's not like we didn't know these weapons (and others) were overpowered before. When has Valve looked at any competitive scene and decided to balance their weapons because of it? When everything they've done lately is buff Medic and Scout, which are arguably the most overpowered classes in the game. They haven't fixed the Crit-a-cola, they haven't fixed the Atomizer and they haven't fixed any of the other weapons that this whitelist is still outlawing.

If the purpose of this whitelist is that Valve fixes weapons, why don't we allow everything? If we're really going to have to do this eventually, why risk ruining two consecutive seasons instead of just one? If this is not the only purpose, why are the weapons that people are complaining about allowed? I'm sure that someone wasn't OK with the Atomizer being allowed in that meeting. Where's the reasoning for allowing it? Honestly, these decisions come to us the same way the weapon changes come to us from Valve, and in the same way that people in that meeting complain about: from nowhere. Not to mention the fact that, apparently, a lot of people were missing from that meeting.

If you want people to take this whitelist seriously, then explain your reasoning for allowing/banning weapons. Then there will actually be discussion. Otherwise you're doing the same Valve does, and people really don't like being kept in the dark.

The ETF2L had a Preseason Cup to test the Pomson and the Brass Beast. From some time ago, the ETF2L has been adding more and more weapons to the whitelist, but in a certain pace and with testing. And now, all of a sudden, you open Pandora's Box and allow tons of weapons without playing with them first.

Personally, I'm afraid that if this whitelist doesn't change, people that have been playing for a long time will actually be discouraged. A no-ban enviroment already exists, and Valve can get data from it: Matchmaking. This makes me think that a lot of people will not take the next ETF2L season seriously, and I honestly can understand them. I don't want to play against flying scouts and parachuting soldiers vomiting rockets from the sky ceiling.

Global Whitelists
Great Idea
Shitty Execution

You pretty much went "Full Matchmaking" with this guys...

I feel like Beggars and Airstrike are going to be pretty stupid to play against, especially now that the B.A.S.E. Jumper is allowed as well. I guess since Cow Mangler is a straight upgrade people will likely be using that over either of these for most situations but on certain maps I can see B.A.S.E. Jumper being pretty stupid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a11m-127uqE

You could do a similar thing on Process, Gullywash, Granary, Sunshine, and potentially Badlands (Should be possible but there's some clipping on shithouse that would make it somewhat inconsistant)

lemme say there is just something inherently flawed when a class' drawback gets fixed through other weapons i.e. scout who is mainly focused on horizontal movement, can now fly ten feet high with weapons such as soda popper, winger, atomizer

and slowly playing medic just becomes hell...

-atomizer
-beggars
-airstrike
-cow mangler
-jarate
-loch and load

-splendid screen (useless unless u walk around a corner into their face and get instacrit lol)

also has Scottish resistance last holds been tried?

pls no jarate, base jumper, natascha, or atomizer

Yeah but if luck isn't on your side in most of those clips then you are stuck with an inaccurate rocket launcher and it has also received a -20% blast radius nerf since then.

can this still be removed/fixed??

or are we just gonna bend over and take it up the ass bc a few people decided to make decisions for everyone else

Did I miss a discussion over what should be banned and what shouldn't, because you'd think the individuals in the community would have at partial say over something as dramatic as a whitelist

I am kind of surprised that nobody has been talking about, or using quickie bombs (in regions where they were already allowed). Quickies+Loch makes demo so much stronger in 1v1's, however I don't personally think giving up the extra stickies would be worth it. Would be interesting if somebody else could make it work however...

yall are some fucking battered housewives if you think running back to valve will lead to good balance changes in this game, or that any of this will somehow make tf2 a real esport

how delusional can you be rofl

i think tf2 is gonna regress a lot strategy-wise. can't imagine what the lower divs are gonna look like...

What a shit whitelist. Like wtf- loch, jarate, atomizer, airstrike, gunslinger, brass beast, natasha, rescue ranger, base jumper, pholg, baby face baster. waj

i've just played 2/3 lobbies. I've never seen a scene like these where what EVERY soldier did was just alt firing with the Cow Mangler...
Most of these weapons weren't banned cos "broken" or what, but because is fucking frustrating to play against someone who doesn't even now what he's doing. (Cow Mangler, any throwable weapon, panic attack, begger's bazooka, gunslinger,...)
If i have to feel frustrated when i get killed, then i just go play pubs.

can we make a senior league for the washed up people with a 2012 version/whitelist if this happens ;_;

So i take it scout will become obsolete?
I mean pyro and engie are viable and great scout counters now...

as if winger & basher jumps weren't dumb enough already

I'm SUPER hyped that yall get to enjoy the greatest unlock in the game to push into: Jarate.
See ya later kritz pushes

people didnt use those during combat tho...
you can now without switching weapons with the atomizer

I'm mostly upset that they've done this so close to the start of the ESEA season when I've already paid my league fees. I feel like this might have been done intentionally so that they can force players to play with an experimental and likely unfun whitelist. So if I really don't want to play against all the cheesiness this will entail, I'm guilted into doing so, having already paid my fees. I feel like I've been baited into playing this season.

Very good post. Only thing is, in matchmaking, the problems in weapon balance aren't as easily noticeable. The first, overarching issue with using matchmaking for any kind of weapon balance is the sheer lack of knowledge of the average player. These players are seriously so bad they can't even roll out on MEDIC. The rollouts video Tagg made should be satire, but instead it's an actual teaching tool. Players who can't even find middle or find the fastest route there don't have the expertise or ability to demonstrate the imbalance of weapons. The second issue is the lack of class limits. There could be examples of items only being overpowered if both classes are using it (ie, 2 scouts using it, 2 soldiers). In matchmaking, you don't always have the status quo of 2 scouts and soldiers.

All of that aside, I find it absolutely hilarious how disjointed everything in this game is. NA/EU rules aren't the same, matchmaking has no whitelist or class limits, the new ruleset has only some of the weapons blacklisted while the majority are whitelisted, and to make matters worse, it seems the majority of players who deserve an opinion on the whitelist weren't even consulted. It's unfortunate, because it's been the problem ever since the creation of competitive TF2. If you don't have a company or group overseeing the rules and standardizing them for everyone, you can't have a successful competitive ecosystem. Allowing these weapons aren't inherently an issue until you leave the majority of the community in the dark. Aside from that seemingly ridiculous oversight, taking these matters into your own hands is the only thing the community can do at this point.

Is jarate allowed now??????