Nope. Plenty of comp players pub for the fun of it. People play comp because that is the only reliable opportunity in ANY game or sport to be part of a coordinated team. If you want to improve and truly challenge yourself, there is no other way to do it in team gaming, or sports. Some people like the challenge of competition, and others never will. Those 9 years you talked about do actually matter. The reasons for 6v6, and our class limits are pretty damn logical. Basically their version of MM is taking us back in time to when 6v6 was first the 'leading' format of TF2. Good times. The only difference is the shit pile of ridiculous weapons added on top of that, and lack of class restrictions.

If they're working on making 6v6 more agreeable to the casual or highlander player, valve should look at where those 9 years of 6v6 have gotten us, and make alterations from there. The end result won't be drastically different than our existing rule set because 9 years of play testing should give a decent idea of what actually works for 6s TF2 based on the game mechanics, flow, and size of maps. Sure, there may be concessions for more freedom and game modes, but the end result will still look closer to existing 6s than no class limits/whitelists. The whole goal of MM should be catering to those with a desire for actual competition.... Yes to highlander players of course, but casual players need to have an actual desire to apply themselves to TF2 and get stomped on while they improve for MM to ever be appealing. At that point they're no longer casual, are they? Exposure, and recognition from valve might make some interested rather than a lack of class limits/whitelists where they'll still get destroyed, and run across the dreaded 'tryhards' already ruining their pubbing experience.

In general, I'm scared for what the pyro update will bring. If this is really valve turning a new leaf, then why aren't they openly discussing pyro with us?

Pyro back in 2007 was an ambush class. A pyro couldn't get close unless he snuck up on people and ambushed them. The flamethrower hits multiple targets, and has a wide spread preventing evasion of damage. Even if pyro dies, he gets rewarded with an additional 60 damage on any target he hits. This is pyro in a pub scenario.

Now we're in 2016. We have a big pyro update coming, but we have no idea what valve will do. I doubt they really understand the issue(s) with pyro and comp tf2. Stuff like:

-Should pyro just be a class to defend against full uber ads on last?
-Should pyro have ammo for 10 airblasts?
-Should pyro be able to airblast in quick succession?
-Should the airblast prevent air strafing?
-Should the flamethrower do more damage? less damage? how does falloff factor in?
-Should the flamethrower be skinnier? Fatter? Longer? Shorter?
-Should afterburn be reworked? How does the afterburn mechanic fit into TF2 in general?

I'm just afraid the pyro update will come out, and nothing will have changed, and the class will still be a giant piece of shit.

Or we could look at the recently published game that actually did look at making 6v6 more agreeable to the casual player and also heavily backed competitive TF2 players, the same players Valve has ignored for years. They've invested in them, invited them to extensive beta testing, taken their feedback on board and gone back on developer stated direction to meet their demands. Coverage people, technical people, etc, are all getting opportunities too.

Basically there is a developer backed TF2 that invests in it's competitive scene right now and it's Overwatch. I have no idea why any high level competitive player would stick with TF2. Just look at what Valve are asking: that the whole world comes to TF2 regardless of any attempts by them to promote it and tell them if their game mode is any good, and if the answer is yes in massive numbers they might consider backing a competitive scene.

Blizzard meanwhile worked with the same competitive players who've been telling Valve what to do for 9 years. They're begging people to come to their competitive scene, funding it, promoting it, working with organisations, and heavily rewarding success. Somebody wants us!

And I don't even enjoy Overwatch or watch it, and I don't want TF2 to die. I along with many others really wanted TF2 to succeed and MM to be a turning point but just compare the attitudes, just look at Valve's insipid reaction. I don't blame the MM devs but they don't have the power to make these things happen, they don't have the capability to truly lead a major change.

The attitude amongst Valve heavyweights is probably close to what Robin Walker said on one visit when informed that ESEA was in jeopardy: leagues come and go. He might as well have said players come and go. Well, someone else offered to listen and they've gone.

Valve doesnt listen nor learn. How long have people been telling them exactly what to do to grow and support the game and they never listen. I cant see a long term future for tf2 without either it dying or valve drastically changing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fppp_yE-An0

http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.195503162.6076/flat,800x800,075,t.jpg

I give valve a lot of shit, and that's evident from what I posted above. However, there are some issues with this community that I dislike. People tend to BM and constantly spout doom and gloom, which makes the competitive experience awful for newcomers. It makes it seem like the comp scene treats this game as a joke.

Even at invite level, people just fuck around and don't take the game seriously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSkK2flXH68

If we're going to grill valve for fucking up, then let's be fair and call out bad behavior where it exists. Teams don't want to move up and play against better teams, because they'd rather crush and BM against noobs. Players who mge a lot get made fun of for actually putting for the effort and time and to get better DM (they get called lobby lords, sweaty, etc.). TF2 center and mixchamp are a cess pool of people grunting and whining about their team.

We make fun of pubbers and highlander, yet we don't take the game seriously ourselves. If we really care about competitive TF2 being a thing, then we should act better as a community. Don't BM against worse teams, don't taunt them, don't troll if you start losing, just say 'gg' and have some objective post game discussion with the other team.

I could add on to this, but this sums up a large part of it fairly well IMO

Hit the nail on the head. This forum is the place to be if you love this game but hate yourself.
also
The bmers don't give a fuck about "helping new players" or "saving the game." bmers bm because to them the game is already dead. Only real answer is to just avoid it yourself

Should we enforce draconian penalties on bmers and implement higher restrictions on sandbaggers in esea? There are rules in esea that should logically penalize people who commit acts of poor sportsmanship, but from what I've heard they are not really enforced. There's allot of stuff in this community that needs to be addressed before we can start cleaning up our act. We need to be able to have civil conversations about our future to start, and that's already hard enough. Once we start changing things, there will be backlash; just look at the changes that were made to the esea whitelist as an example.

Let's be real Valve isn't basing their decision on whether to support competitive TF2 on whether teams say gg at the end of games, this is a non-issue.

Also, can one of the handful of special snowflakes in this forum who enjoy sharing the fact they have easy access to Valve employees please get one of them to at least read the last page or so of this thread, starting from Gentleman Jon's post in particular. It's pretty important that the TF team needs to understand this.

I don't think Valve really cares about TF2. Valve cares only about the money from the market. Things like Competitive Matchmaking Pass prove it. Updates are just mean to keep the impression that the game is still alive.

I love TF2 and I keep regretting the fact that I joined this game too late to experience its most glorious times. But people leave TF2 (as they leave any other game) and it is nearly impossible to make new players to get into a 9-years-old game. So unless Valve decides to do something to refresh TF2 or make a brand new TF3 (that would be at least as similar to TF2 as Overwatch is), the game will be dying really fast.

Among 6s, even Highlander (if played with the right people), what I will really miss when TF2 dies is all these little game modes that no other game has - bball, ultiduo, dodgeball...

Just to address this, we don't need valve. Look at Smash bros: Melee. Literally 0 developer for the past 15 years, no online, limited character roster with intense mechanical skill and a competitive scene with an already insanely good playerbase. They manage to keep their old, graphically outdated fighting game healthy and alive. What's keeping TF2 from growing is how we turn away new players.

Let's say some kid likes TF2 after he found it online, and he gets better, starts watching some frag movies, and starts investigating comp TF2. The kid gets greeted with teams that are way more skilled than their division, but are sandbagging and BM'ing just to fuck around. And then these careless, higher skilled players say that the game will be dead anyway so they might as well fuck around against noobs. Does that seem welcome? Inviting? Inclusive? This game could grow and be massive as a grassroots esports game, we're the third most played game on steam.

So this kid's first impression of the pro scene is one where the good players dont care, and are too afraid to play against better teams, so they troll and BM against noobs. And then they say it doesn't matter because the game will die.

Look, TF2 is my favorite game. I love bombing the medic. I love surviving bombings as medic. I love air rockets, meatshots, rocket jumping, pipes, pushing and capping last, defending last against a push, all of it. But sometimes this community is fucking trash, and that makes it difficult to feel invested. There are lots of other alternatives with much better financial viability and way superior communities, but I stick with TF2 because I prefer TF2. I really wish organizations would crack down on shitty behavior, we have some great community members who do a lot, but their efforts are wasted on sandbaggers hellbent on ruining everyone else's competitive experience

how about saying start times are when matches should start and not a one hour window

I think it's important to make a note here that.. Overwatch isn't an eSport right now because it came out and had stellar, standout gameplay, and was really well done and perfectly made. It's an eSport right now because tons of money was put into it. End of story.

$no$no$overwatch$is$just$a$great$game$

why are we comparing a online pc 6v6 shooter to a offline console 1v1 fighting game

While mostly true, keep in mind that the majority of their staff have transitioned to VR development, because that's what interests them.

I used to think the same way you did, but after years of trying, I'm starting to think otherwise.

This might be a little too deep but here's my story. I started playing comp TF2 in the fall of 2009 back when we had sponsors like EG, Complexity, and Pandemic. When the sponsors started leaving the scene, I decided to do something about it. I took over the mentoring program for CommunityFortress, which was r/TrueTF2 before r/TrueTF2 existed. For two seasons I organized a group of invite players to spend a season coaching new players to get them involved in the game; we coached over 200 players. When this method wasn't working and 1:1 mentoring became too time consuming, I started streaming so I could show the greater gaming community what competitive TF2 is all about. After 4 years of streaming TF2, creating youtube videos, shoutcasting, and basically looking for various ways to grow the scene, I'm not really getting the results I'm looking for. I've talked to everybody that I can about the game, and I've talked to enough sponsors to know that they're not really interested right now.

I don't tell you this to make you feel bad for me, I tell you this because I feel like I've tried those very things that you're talking about. I feel like I've tried to show people the good parts of the scene, and I've tried growing the scene as a grassroots effort in the same way as smash. In fact, the guys who are responsible for growing smash work at Twitch and I've had many conversations with TheCrimsonBlur about this very topic. While TF2 has a number of advantages that Smash doesn't have and never will have, we still have many issues, and we also have competition. There aren't very many games out there that can do what smash does better than smash, but there are games out there that does what comp TF2 does better than comp TF2.

The primary issue of course is that our game isn't the game that everyone knows when they think about TF2. When you think about smash and you watch tournament-level smash, that's the same game you played with your friends on your couch. When you think about TF2, you think about large server, chaotic, fun, cartoon violence. And when you think about Overwatch, you think esport. The fact of the matter is that plenty of esports scenes are WAY more toxic than ours, and toxicity isn't the main issue. If you want to play tournament level smash, you're probably familiar with the game. Bring your controller to the nearest local and start competiting -- it works even without net play. With TF2, if you want to start competing, it's a lot harder to get involved. Even if you encourage every single new player, you're going to be met with resistance.

I'm not here to tell you that you can't grow TF2 as a grassroots esport. Go ahead and try -- it's possible you can succeed where I have failed. Maybe I'm jaded, but I feel like the game needs a makeover if it wants to be seen as competitive, and I think that that movement needs to come from the developers. I'll stick with TF2 like you will, but I think that it's out of my hands to a large extent now.

Just to add onto what SLIN said, also keep in mind that Melee has been heavily reverse-engineered. There are huge mods that completely revise gameplay, on top of the fact that the versions played competitively are often custom-tailored for tournaments.

If we had the source code to TF2, we as a community could improve it. We don't have that luxury.

Ya perhaps I spoke too rashly. I see your point

I heard that Unreal Tournament 4 is a joint project between the pros and the devs, both can make versions for others to try out. Hopefully it works out for them, and I would like to see that for TF2.

It does need a makeover, it's just hard to see the trajectory of the game as positive.

It's possible to interpret things optimistically, that their stated goals of trying to change players so that they're more concerned about their performance, that this will lead to more streaming visibility, and the sharp decline in player numbers we're seeing is Valve fearlessly following that path regardless of the short term wastage. They've certainly got enough money to do that.

It's possible to say that they've realised the current model of an item-making echo chamber in which people make the same things for the same people over and over (a bit like this thread) doesn't have a future and they're cutting the cord by making the changes to casual.

But I can't help seeing them making a half hearted effort at minimal cost to see if there's something they can salvage by some miracle, while the competitive players they have completely ignored for 9 years get their revenge by spearheading the massive and continuous competitive publicity campaign that helps Overwatch crush TF2.

It's strange, TF2 was probably the first non-RPG game that obviously wanted to live forever, and despite Valve clearly having the technology to make any infrastructure updates they want, even updating the whole engine, there is an apparent winding down of the game's life cycle. So little of the way the game has been handled makes sense.

Hey man, I'm sorry you had to deal with that shit. Also your English is pretty alright and was legible enough to read and understand. But your post is definitely a great representation of a newcomer's POV and how this community does need to treat others better. Back then, I use to host tf2lobbies and tried to target those with low number of lobbies or new to compTF2 to help start them off. Anyways, with such a small community for competitive TF2, it's important to value our current players and newer players if we want to be able to play in the future. Sure there will be those that will quit anyway for other reasons, but we can't afford to lose the new players because of something as silly of getting mad at them in a pug/mix/lobby.

I can kind of understand that there are players that are having bad days or in a bad mood that may have lashed out temporarily or in the moment, but I'm sure that the players who do this shit regularly are still there and they're the ones that definitely need to chill the fuck out. A few rules I live by is to never lash out disrespect towards: newer players, well-mannered players, and the players who save the goddamn pug/lobby by choosing to play medic after a long wait. So many times I have chosen to medic in lobbies/centers knowing that the lobby has been waiting forever, and when the game first starts I immediately state in team chat "Hey guys, I'm not that great of a medic and I just wanted to help get the game going, I'll try my best". Yet they still will just yell at me constantly and I just start to regret ever trying to let those fools play.

Overall, we do need to be more respectful and nice as a community. Every player counts. While Valve does need to fix their shit and fucking move forward, it wouldn't hurt if us as a community would move forward also in terms of being kind and welcoming to players.

:D glad to help

wait i was in a sideshow video tho what

Yeah boi (lennyface)

b4nny said on stream that he's talking to valve again soon about the future of competitive and "compromises"

I can't help but wonder what could those compromises possibly be, I'm not convinced valve even know what they want in the first place for anyone to be able to come to a compromise.

You can't compromise with players that have left the game, they had 9 years.

its useless, at least from where Australia stands. no regular active pugs at all to be seen with players flocking the already tiny pool at a speedy rate maybe it's just time friends... (being defeatist is great)

to move onto ratz