I have a dream...
Scattergun being nerfed, having 4 shots instead of 6.

I feel that an easy buff to demo and soldier would be to make it so they don't take stupid amounts of damage when they hit themselves and an enemy with their weapons. It would be so easy to implement and make soldiers and demomen not want to kill themselves after every close range encounter with a scout.

Sure. And I think that it isn't a bad option. But the reason that the gunboats meta exists to begin with was to allow scouts (the better class) to take more heals and to allow your soldiers to play a faster, less heal heavy playstyle and make better use of their 300 health. Wasn't this playstyle adopted because it was viewed as superior to the shotgun pocket playstyle. So currently scouts can be problematic, and shotgun pocket DOES counter scout. So if your scouts are being countered you put your soldiers on gunboats which allows them to do more with their 300hp and play faster. To which you would respond by playing your scouts closer to the med to deny their soldiers. So now your pocket isn't getting healed enough and needs to go back to gunboats. Then scouts are a problem again. I realize my train of thought might be jumbled here but what I'm trying to say is it's a never ending circle. A kind of rock paper scissors.

you think that is frustrating now try playing scout while getting oneshot by soldier (direct hit lol (but its shit).
i dont think oneshots have a place in this game without severe downsides (spy dies after pick, etc.) because then you undermine the arena shooter/dm aspect. one of the things i like about this game is that it has long ttk so fights are more dm based rather than who hits who first (call of duty).

Let's just make it so any point blank shot from anyone is a one shot kill on buffed players so the game is faster paced!!

But actually idk in what universe you hit a scout for 112 and don't get that frag

also, maybe you should be playing with your own scout to do that 13-20 damage

where he jumps and kills you before he even lands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueX9K1eitQA

I think slightly improving soldier in offensive situations without making him stronger defensively is the best way to go about this.

reducing/removing fall damage for soldiers would make bombing slightly more effective and flashier plays would be slightly more viable.

I think it would be pretty cool if soldiers instantaneously loaded a rocket into their clip whenever they walk over an ammopack. For clarifications sake, they would still have the same rate of fire and they still wouldn't be able to have more than 4 rockets in their clip. It would add another element to positioning and would make ammopacks a relevant resource in the middle of a fight.

Slightly buffing the banners would be awesome, especially if it was done so in a way that makes all three of them viable without turning it into rock paper scissors. Maybe if soldier gets buffed in other ways such as reduced fall damage or whatever the banners wont even need to be buffed.

in the universe the scout kills you with 2 easy shots because of massive self damage and scout shooting faster

the banners are viable they just require a really boring playstyle to be effective, they basically force you to stalemate, sac your pocket, sit around for 3+ minutes while he builds off spam and then take a solo uber, trade ubers and repush with a huge advantage from the banner. they would need a massive rework to be full-time viable in a fast paced game, but they are still really good (especially battalions backup) in specific situations if your team is willing to use them.

to continue what nursey was saying, when playing with rando or paddie, I have never noticed them taking away "my heals" more than any other gunboats soldier, for the most part. In fact, I felt like some gunboats pockets like b4nny actually took/take a significant larger amount of heals in certain situations than rando/paddie running shotgun, whether or not they got more/less heals on logs.

even though you inherently take more heals using shotgun, it's more about how you're actually playing. on top of that, if you're doing more because you're running shotgun, you aren't "taking heals away from your scouts." especially on maps like gullywash and granary, you aren't really taking heals away from scouts on that map as a result of you being on shotgun, as it's most of the time better to heal soldiers in close quarters. it's just that sometimes on open maps like process, it's easier to get 300 and jump around, making you play worse if you were on shotgun; you should usually (not always) run what makes you perform better as an individual. but i'll just mention, the only reason to ever run shotgun is if you actually have good aim and hit all of your shots, otherwise it's pointless, because you could've just reloaded a rocket.

yeah most soldiers can't aim because of gunboats. crutch item for shitters. i remember some random retard in dm getting mad that i ran a shotgun. it's almost like aiming is despised by people in this game.

Scout is too strong only because other classes blow due to some stupid mechanics/bugs.

The medic speed thing while healing a scout is bullshit.

Demo nerfs should be reverted and the det bugs fixed.

Soldier needs some sort of buff, either gunboats negating/lowering fall damage, less self damage when shooting an oppponent (dying to scouts when you meet head on and both click on each other while they live with 13hp is the definition of fun).

This is just my opinion and other people in this thread made some really good points similiar to mine as well.

absolute facts. i would say its even moreso soldiers dont want to use shotgun or have it be viable simply because they can't aim with it

make a change in the lore where the scout somehow loses both arms and legs...

also, despite the fact that i said shotgun is good, i'm not so sure if it's the "counter" to scout as somebody has already said. if a soldier is ever running shotgun and they trying bombing, they are a fair bit easier to kill, because by the time they land, they're 200-250 hp at most. the only times it counters scouts are in close quarter team fight situations or just 1v1s in general (in which case it counters every class)

the actual reasons to run shotgun are to win every 1v1 with heals (or without too lol), and to have the best ubers and uber exchanges in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiYvBrKwJrU&feature=youtu.be Pretty sure the problem with scout in tf2 is with it's effective range. There really isn't a way to engage a scout where you're at an advantage where as low ground sucks for soldiers and demo sucks at close range. I supposed an argument could be made for close quarters in like house or lobby on badlands but even then a scout can 2 shot you. I think taking the range away from scouts would make it a lot easier to break stalemates while also increasing the pace of the game.

The problem w scout is we want a fast paced game. Scouts the only class that can fly around the map without using ammo or hp to do so. They also have the ability to pick and choose 1v1s without aforementioned self damage to get away.

Pockets moving to gunboats indirectly buffed scouts as they now only have to worry about 1 combo player having hitscan vs 2. Running shotgun also means you HAVE to dump a lot more heals into your pocket and hes not as mobile.

The medic movespeed buff also didnt help.

The class itself isnt ridiculous its the meta thats made it so strong.

We need to give demo an AK-47.

-Primary Slot
-35 rounds / 100 reserve size (or we can go with classic CS 30/90)
-Damage fall off like pistol at farther distance
-5 damage per shot max
-2 second longer reload than pistol
-Cannot be kritz boosted.
-Ability to headshot?? (With TF2 netcode and hitbox in factor ill leave this for debate)
-User has -15% slower movement speed when equipped.

Discuss.

nice dude you hit someone standing still for 23 damage from what you called "shit on" range

fixed.

YES

Why does no one else seem to get this? "Is scout too strong?" Scout has been the same FOREVER. Not one thing has changed (except the boston basher and winger). If you use gunboats does it occur to you that it's going to be harder to kill scouts? That plus the demo nerf (which I don't think buffed scouts too much, it buffed soldiers imo because of the air det spam and denying spire and such) and the medic buff make scout in a position to be very strong.

Medics can heal scouts way better than they used to be able to, scout ubers are strong af now and they weren't a thing before, and now people usually run gunboats pocket which makes scout even more powerful...

I wish the demo nerf and maybe the medic buff were reverted but you have to make an effort to counter the new power that the current meta gives scouts before you can complain about scout being too strong.

Let demoman pipes do 125 damage.

Then what's a good way to change the meta? Running full time gunslinger engi would get rid of the scouts but that's not a game i want to play.

Potential change to nerf scouts all around utility a bit...change them to 1x cap rate. youd see more roamers/demo running pain train. Discuss.

1

it's already impossible to kill medics with ubers if you took away the speed buff when ubered it would never happen

what if you only got it when ubered

Yes but do I really want more of an incentive for my scouts to brainlessly +forward to second after we win mid.

New scout melee. Increases cap rate to 2x but take 15% more explosive damage

And saam yeah thatd be better.

this is actually a great idea.