4812622YeeHawWho said he was taking 1v1s lol?
"All the damage you do is irrelevant as you [ie the roamer] have to actually kill the guy"
This is the reason people say that the crossbow would increase the pace of the game. It's harder to stabilise your team's health after you lose a point, which means teams can use momentum to play more aggresively.
I have never argued against this, but it does counter OP's point that roamer is especially fucked over by the Crossbow.
People still used crossbow when the scout speed nerf was not implemented. Do you really think people will use the overdose instead of crossbow lol? It hasn't been used for many years.
Okay, the Overdose thing is irrelevant.
I am perfectly fine with nobody ever using Syringe Guns because they're boring as hell. They need to have some sort of Uber or healing mechanic or nobody will ever use them over the Crossbow because you're punished every time you take them out.
I guess what I meant was that the weakness of the Crossbow was, in large part, negated by the Scout speed change, and while needles wouldn't become meta, the crossbow would not be as overpowered.
Firstly, ridiculous false equivalence. 6v6 as it is now with 1 change in the whitelist is a vastly different change from 5 scouts + 1 med. Secondly, 99% of crossbows are just on players standing still waiting for an arrow after they tanked damage from choke. The number of times a skillful crossbow shot happens in a map is the same as the number of times a skillful play with needles happens.
It was never meant to be equivalent. The goal of the example is to show that "making the game fast" isn't the end goal of balance, the goal is creating something entertaining to play, and making the game faster is one metric of fun gameplay. another is skill-indexing. i cannot think of any role in a competitive video game that is so low skill, high reward as medic.
I have no idea where you're getting this 99% metric. Have you never had a Soldier or Demo to half health in a team fight? Do you actually go for 1 difficult shot (defined as arrowing someone who is not walking in a straight line or standing still) out of 100 arrows? Because that's...ridiculously low.
Also, why do you think that only max rampup crossbows are difficult? mid- and close-range arrows take just as much skill.
but it doesn't outweigh the disadvantages of the crossbow (anoying to play against (if someone gets arrowed in a 1v1 or similar situation),
stickies are annoying when i drop to a trap. scattergun is annoying when i get 2shot by 185 scouts. everything that isn't severely underpowered can be construed as annoying.
slows the game down and makes it hard/impossible to accurately track ubers and push off small advantages).
bolded statements are redundant.
it is more difficult to track uber when arrows can build, but it is possible. if nothing is happening, their combo isn't peeking a choke while getting tanked, they're probably arrow building. arrow building has a finite maximum rate just like normal building.
i grant you that it is harder to push off of damage advantage. it is, admittedly, a weakness of giving Medic the ability to hit high reward shots that actually take some measure of skill. Unfortunately, I don't gain as much fun pushing off of damage as I want to kill myself at the thought of being forced to play Medic without the Crossbow.
At the end of the day, all of this is meaningless if you have not tried out the change in a serious scrim environment. I have, and it enabled us to push off damage and caused the game to be far less stalematey. BAN.
Played it for half a week of scrims when loadouts were broken. Outside of the 15 seconds per scrim I ran at people with needles, it was fucking terrible.
Allow.
Fair enough. I play scout so I don't see it from a medic's perspective, but I don't agree that the game being slower is worth the game being less fun for the med. 10/12 people's fun > 2/12 people's fun.
[quote=4812622][quote=YeeHaw]
Who said he was taking 1v1s lol?[/quote]
"All the damage you do is irrelevant as you [ie the roamer] have to actually kill the guy"
[quote]This is the reason people say that the crossbow would increase the pace of the game. It's harder to stabilise your team's health after you lose a point, which means teams can use momentum to play more aggresively.[/quote]
I have never argued against this, but it does counter OP's point that roamer is especially fucked over by the Crossbow.
[quote]
People still used crossbow when the scout speed nerf was not implemented. Do you really think people will use the overdose instead of crossbow lol? It hasn't been used for many years.[/quote]
Okay, the Overdose thing is irrelevant.
I am perfectly fine with nobody ever using Syringe Guns because they're boring as hell. They need to have some sort of Uber or healing mechanic or nobody will ever use them over the Crossbow because you're punished every time you take them out.
I guess what I meant was that the weakness of the Crossbow was, in large part, negated by the Scout speed change, and while needles wouldn't become meta, the crossbow would not be as overpowered.
[quote]
Firstly, ridiculous false equivalence. 6v6 as it is now with 1 change in the whitelist is a vastly different change from 5 scouts + 1 med. Secondly, 99% of crossbows are just on players standing still waiting for an arrow after they tanked damage from choke. The number of times a skillful crossbow shot happens in a map is the same as the number of times a skillful play with needles happens.[/quote]
It was never meant to be equivalent. The goal of the example is to show that "making the game fast" isn't the end goal of balance, the goal is creating something entertaining to play, and making the game faster is one metric of fun gameplay. another is skill-indexing. i cannot think of any role in a competitive video game that is so low skill, high reward as medic.
I have no idea where you're getting this 99% metric. Have you never had a Soldier or Demo to half health in a team fight? Do you actually go for 1 difficult shot (defined as arrowing someone who is not walking in a straight line or standing still) out of 100 arrows? Because that's...ridiculously low.
Also, why do you think that only max rampup crossbows are difficult? mid- and close-range arrows take just as much skill.
[quote]but it doesn't outweigh the disadvantages of the crossbow (anoying to play against (if someone gets arrowed in a 1v1 or similar situation),[/quote]
stickies are annoying when i drop to a trap. scattergun is annoying when i get 2shot by 185 scouts. everything that isn't severely underpowered can be construed as annoying.
[quote][b]slows the game down[/b] and makes it hard/impossible to accurately track ubers and [b]push off small advantages).[/b][/quote]
bolded statements are redundant.
it is more difficult to track uber when arrows can build, but it is possible. if nothing is happening, their combo isn't peeking a choke while getting tanked, they're probably arrow building. arrow building has a finite maximum rate just like normal building.
i grant you that it is harder to push off of damage advantage. it is, admittedly, a weakness of giving Medic the ability to hit high reward shots that actually take some measure of skill. Unfortunately, I don't gain as much fun pushing off of damage as I want to kill myself at the thought of being forced to play Medic without the Crossbow.
[quote]At the end of the day, all of this is meaningless if you have not tried out the change in a serious scrim environment. I have, and it enabled us to push off damage and caused the game to be far less stalematey. BAN.[/quote]
Played it for half a week of scrims when loadouts were broken. Outside of the 15 seconds per scrim I ran at people with needles, it was fucking terrible.
Allow.[/quote]
Fair enough. I play scout so I don't see it from a medic's perspective, but I don't agree that the game being slower is worth the game being less fun for the med. 10/12 people's fun > 2/12 people's fun.
I actually think removing the crossbow would make playing medic less stressful since you wont have situations where there's 3 teammates standing still in a midfight because "just arrow me dude" (x3) or demanding a clutch arrow while you are healing with a medigun someone that's already weak.
I actually think removing the crossbow would make playing medic less stressful since you wont have situations where there's 3 teammates standing still in a midfight because "just arrow me dude" (x3) or demanding a clutch arrow while you are healing with a medigun someone that's already weak.
I think removing the rocket launcher would make playing soldier less stressful since you wont have situations where there's 3 enemies fighting in a midfight because "they're playing the game" (x3) or teammates demanding you shoot the enemy while you are fighting with your shotgun against someone that's already weak.
I think removing the rocket launcher would make playing soldier less stressful since you wont have situations where there's 3 enemies fighting in a midfight because "they're playing the game" (x3) or teammates demanding you shoot the enemy while you are fighting with your shotgun against someone that's already weak.
sageI actually think removing the crossbow would make playing medic less stressful since you wont have situations where there's 3 teammates standing still in a midfight because "just arrow me dude" (x3) or demanding a clutch arrow while you are healing with a medigun someone that's already weak.
it'd make priority healing a bigger thing since there's only so much that can be done with the medigun alone. Some of your teammates would be forced to go and get health packs more often and pushing off of a lot of damage might become a thing again.
Recently, it's more or less your roamer has to either get a force or actually kill the medic because if you have a really good bomb and do a lot of damage to 2 players it's basically useless since arrows heal for so much
[quote=sage]I actually think removing the crossbow would make playing medic less stressful since you wont have situations where there's 3 teammates standing still in a midfight because "just arrow me dude" (x3) or demanding a clutch arrow while you are healing with a medigun someone that's already weak.[/quote]
it'd make priority healing a bigger thing since there's only so much that can be done with the medigun alone. Some of your teammates would be forced to go and get health packs more often and pushing off of a lot of damage might become a thing again.
Recently, it's more or less your roamer has to either get a force or actually kill the medic because if you have a really good bomb and do a lot of damage to 2 players it's basically useless since arrows heal for so much
Getting rid of arrows will severely lower the skill ceiling and just sounds like a cry out from players who aren't good at medic to have one less thing for them to get yelled at about so they can just sit in their bubble
Getting rid of uber building capabilities is the one thing I can get behind but the banning the item completely just sounds like people who've been flamed in pugs and don't want to get flamed anymore
Think about how much slower this game would be when you have players running back for packs.
Everyone plays extremely aggressive because of this item and it's synergy with double gunboats
Getting rid of arrows will severely lower the skill ceiling and just sounds like a cry out from players who aren't good at medic to have one less thing for them to get yelled at about so they can just sit in their bubble
Getting rid of uber building capabilities is the one thing I can get behind but the banning the item completely just sounds like people who've been flamed in pugs and don't want to get flamed anymore
Think about how much slower this game would be when you have players running back for packs.
Everyone plays extremely aggressive because of this item and it's synergy with double gunboats
Make crossbows healing ramp up over time less, making it for more of a medium ranged heal than the "long range hit someone while they are taking a 1v1 and heal them for 100+ so they win" weapon it is.
Syringes can be viable again if one is created or tweaked so that it can fill a support role and a protection role, similar to the crossbow. Even if the change above was implemented, syringes would still not be used since their is little support.
The xbow is too good in the right hands, making some medics god-like and a necessity for them to have crossbow aim that can be of use. There is a fine line here, but honestly, the crossbow could just be nerfed in the sense that it heals less or reloads/fires slower (or doesnt reload while its not active like it used to, even tho it was still rly good then).
Make crossbows healing ramp up over time less, making it for more of a medium ranged heal than the "long range hit someone while they are taking a 1v1 and heal them for 100+ so they win" weapon it is.
Syringes can be viable again if one is created or tweaked so that it can fill a support role and a protection role, similar to the crossbow. Even if the change above was implemented, syringes would still not be used since their is little support.
The xbow is too good in the right hands, making some medics god-like and a necessity for them to have crossbow aim that can be of use. There is a fine line here, but honestly, the crossbow could just be nerfed in the sense that it heals less or reloads/fires slower (or doesnt reload while its not active like it used to, even tho it was still rly good then).
JDuffMake crossbows healing ramp up over time less, making it for more of a medium ranged heal than the "long range hit someone while they are taking a 1v1 and heal them for 100+ so they win" weapon it is.
Yeah, we'll get right on that. Can't believe we didn't just think of changing the weapon before. Crazy.
[quote=JDuff]Make crossbows healing ramp up over time less, making it for more of a medium ranged heal than the "long range hit someone while they are taking a 1v1 and heal them for 100+ so they win" weapon it is.[/quote]
Yeah, we'll get right on that. Can't believe we didn't just think of changing the weapon before. Crazy.
unfdid you not read the other thread?
i scanned it
apparently the main people who wanted it gone were "real medic mains"
ie players who are so awful they're too afraid to arrow people who aren't standing still
YeeHawFair enough. I play scout so I don't see it from a medic's perspective, but I don't agree that the game being slower is worth the game being less fun for the med. 10/12 people's fun > 2/12 people's fun.
removing stickies would also be fun for 10/12 people
sageI actually think removing the crossbow would make playing medic less stressful since you wont have situations where there's 3 teammates standing still in a midfight because "just arrow me dude" (x3) or demanding a clutch arrow while you are healing with a medigun someone that's already weak.
if we're looking to minimize stress for medics, why not go further? let's replace every medic with a bot, so they can sleep, while everyone else plays the game. it'd basically be the same thing
[quote=unf]did you not read the other thread?[/quote]
i scanned it
apparently the main people who wanted it gone were "real medic mains"
ie players who are so awful they're too afraid to arrow people who aren't standing still
[quote=YeeHaw]Fair enough. I play scout so I don't see it from a medic's perspective, but I don't agree that the game being slower is worth the game being less fun for the med. 10/12 people's fun > 2/12 people's fun.[/quote]
removing stickies would also be fun for 10/12 people
[quote=sage]I actually think removing the crossbow would make playing medic less stressful since you wont have situations where there's 3 teammates standing still in a midfight because "just arrow me dude" (x3) or demanding a clutch arrow while you are healing with a medigun someone that's already weak.[/quote]
if we're looking to minimize stress for medics, why not go further? let's replace every medic with a bot, so they can sleep, while everyone else plays the game. it'd basically be the same thing
Let's step back and look at this.
X Medic is good at aiming and using a mouse
X Medic is able to shoot standing still people who want arrows and able to tell people to go get a pack when they can't arrow them or it would be a bad situation to have arrows out
But who cares about all this shit that X medic is able to do with arrows. Even tho X med is good at the game they should be hindered and not reap the rewards of being good at using arrows and at the game.
"I could do what X med is doing it arrows weren't in the game!"
Let's step back and look at this.
X Medic is good at aiming and using a mouse
X Medic is able to shoot standing still people who want arrows and able to tell people to go get a pack when they can't arrow them or it would be a bad situation to have arrows out
But who cares about all this shit that X medic is able to do with arrows. Even tho X med is good at the game they should be hindered and not reap the rewards of being good at using arrows and at the game.
"I could do what X med is doing it arrows weren't in the game!"
X Soldier fucks up with a dumbass play
X Soldier gets instantly healed to 200 hp instead of dying thanks to //standing still//
:thinking:
X Soldier fucks up with a dumbass play
X Soldier gets instantly healed to 200 hp instead of dying thanks to //standing still//
:thinking:
i think that having every player play tetris through the esea client while playing (if you lose in game you die) would raise the skill ceiling and therefore should be a part of the ruleset
anyone who disagrees is just trying to prevent skilled players from having an advantage
i think that having every player play tetris through the esea client while playing (if you lose in game you die) would raise the skill ceiling and therefore should be a part of the ruleset
anyone who disagrees is just trying to prevent skilled players from having an advantage
ThalashIt baffles me how people have come to the conclusion that banning crossbow makes the game faster. The defending team will always trade damage more effectively than the team trying to push.
[quote=Thalash]It baffles me how people have come to the conclusion that banning crossbow makes the game faster. The defending team will always trade damage more effectively than the team trying to push.[/quote]
Confusing failed sacs and people able to escape after creating a distraction is not equal to a dumbass play on the team that's actually doing it. Think outside of this one way thinking and just maybe you will realize how just maybe if you guys actually aggressed on the guy who is running away with literally <50 hp it can open up into a push and you can actually do something and stop complaining about this shit.
Or you know hehexd someone could actually hit shots on people who are doing these "dumbass" plays sot hey would die from fall damage
Confusing failed sacs and people able to escape after creating a distraction is not equal to a dumbass play on the team that's actually doing it. Think outside of this one way thinking and just maybe you will realize how just maybe if you guys actually aggressed on the guy who is running away with literally <50 hp it can open up into a push and you can actually do something and stop complaining about this shit.
Or you know hehexd someone could actually hit shots on people who are doing these "dumbass" plays sot hey would die from fall damage
rocketslayThalashIt baffles me how people have come to the conclusion that banning crossbow makes the game faster. The defending team will always trade damage more effectively than the team trying to push.
I mean, the meta has been progressively getting slower and more stalematey, coincidentally as the crossbow kept getting buffed. Not entirely just the crossbow, the demo nerf slowed down the meta a low when it came out and the medic speed buff contributed when it happened, but there's a pretty strong correlation between crossbow buffs and a slower meta.
Not to mention etf2l's experiment with banning it in their cup seemed to be pretty positive that it sped the game up and made the meta overall better.
[quote=rocketslay][quote=Thalash]It baffles me how people have come to the conclusion that banning crossbow makes the game faster. The defending team will always trade damage more effectively than the team trying to push.[/quote][/quote]
I mean, the meta has been progressively getting slower and more stalematey, coincidentally as the crossbow kept getting buffed. Not entirely just the crossbow, the demo nerf slowed down the meta a low when it came out and the medic speed buff contributed when it happened, but there's a pretty strong correlation between crossbow buffs and a slower meta.
Not to mention etf2l's experiment with banning it in their cup seemed to be pretty positive that it sped the game up and made the meta overall better.
Medic class is already boring af if you removed crossbows im sure 90% of medics would just stop playing the class because it's not fun at all anymore (except for the few who played before the xbow buff i.e., Marxist, lucrative)
I agree that in a perfect world if valve listened to anything we wanted it should get nerfed but realistically, that's not gonna happen anytime soon
Idk about whether or not it would speed the meta up but it doesn't really matter because any good team can speed up and slow down the pace of the game if they want to depending on the situation (i.e., crowns/evl vs mix^)
I feel like the bigger issue is just the way it can swing fights so easily as well as the dumb mechanic that is arrowing a heavy over and over as he gets shot during an uber
Medic class is already boring af if you removed crossbows im sure 90% of medics would just stop playing the class because it's not fun at all anymore (except for the few who played before the xbow buff i.e., Marxist, lucrative)
I agree that in a perfect world if valve listened to anything we wanted it should get nerfed but realistically, that's not gonna happen anytime soon
Idk about whether or not it would speed the meta up but it doesn't really matter because any good team can speed up and slow down the pace of the game if they want to depending on the situation (i.e., crowns/evl vs mix^)
I feel like the bigger issue is just the way it can swing fights so easily as well as the dumb mechanic that is arrowing a heavy over and over as he gets shot during an uber
my head hurts reading these "ban the crossbow" threads, its such a fucking dumb idea
my head hurts reading these "ban the crossbow" threads, its such a fucking dumb idea
JarateKingI mean, the meta has been progressively getting slower and more stalematey, coincidentally as the crossbow kept getting buffed.
S13 HRG says hi. S15 Mixup says hi. Correlation does not equal causation.
The chief reason the game is slower (besides Vaccinator last holds) is that there is a steadily lowering population of feeding idiots to get free advantages off of.
How has the role of pocket soldier evolved from the beginning of TF2? Has it grown in relevance, shrunk in relevance?
Tyrone: I definitely think that the game has trended more into a team oriented game. TF2 of young was a completely different game, where the better pocket soldier often meant the difference between a win and a loss. Pocket soldiers back than would completely murder teams especially because emphasis on uber counting wasn't quite as high as it is now, and ubers could absolutely demolish teams. Another reason is that the pockets role is to punish players out of position and in the earlier stages of TF2, everybody was out of position. Nowadays, the game is more like chess. Its controlled, and there's generally a right and wrong way to approach every push. The game is a lot more structured and pocket soldiers have just become another player on the team, as opposed to the monsters they were before.
TLR: Pockets can still have a big impact, but not like they could in the past. Early in TF2, teams were unorganized. A 300 hp soldier with a medic could dominate since no one matched him in health and backup was a lot further off than it is now. Positioning was a lot worse, which meant that people would often be caught out by ubers. One uber might get three or four kills on people that are not prepared. Compare that to now where it is rare to get more than one or two kills with an uber.
http://www.teamfortress.tv/314/pocket-soldier-roundtable-tlr-and-tyrone
Now watch a S11 demo and realize how fucking stupid everybody was back then.
[quote=JarateKing]I mean, the meta has been progressively getting slower and more stalematey, coincidentally as the crossbow kept getting buffed.[/quote]
S13 HRG says hi. S15 Mixup says hi. Correlation does not equal causation.
The chief reason the game is slower (besides Vaccinator last holds) is that there is a steadily lowering population of feeding idiots to get free advantages off of.
[quote][b]How has the role of pocket soldier evolved from the beginning of TF2? Has it grown in relevance, shrunk in relevance?[/b]
[b]Tyrone[/b]: I definitely think that the game has trended more into a team oriented game. TF2 of young was a completely different game, where the better pocket soldier often meant the difference between a win and a loss. Pocket soldiers back than would completely murder teams especially because emphasis on uber counting wasn't quite as high as it is now, and ubers could absolutely demolish teams. Another reason is that the pockets role is to punish players out of position and in the earlier stages of TF2, everybody was out of position. Nowadays, the game is more like chess. Its controlled, and there's generally a right and wrong way to approach every push. The game is a lot more structured and pocket soldiers have just become another player on the team, as opposed to the monsters they were before.
[b]TLR[/b]: Pockets can still have a big impact, but not like they could in the past. Early in TF2, teams were unorganized. A 300 hp soldier with a medic could dominate since no one matched him in health and backup was a lot further off than it is now. Positioning was a lot worse, which meant that people would often be caught out by ubers. One uber might get three or four kills on people that are not prepared. Compare that to now where it is rare to get more than one or two kills with an uber.
http://www.teamfortress.tv/314/pocket-soldier-roundtable-tlr-and-tyrone[/quote]
Now watch a S11 demo and realize how fucking stupid everybody was back then.
JarateKingI mean, the meta has been progressively getting slower and more stalematey, coincidentally as the crossbow kept getting buffed. Not entirely just the crossbow, the demo nerf slowed down the meta a low when it came out and the medic speed buff contributed when it happened, but there's a pretty strong correlation between crossbow buffs and a slower meta.
Not to mention etf2l's experiment with banning it in their cup seemed to be pretty positive that it sped the game up and made the meta overall better.
Holy fuck what a garbage post, this might be your worst one yet.
The crossbow getting banned will not change the pace of the game whatsoever, teams will just play with the mindset that their hp is valued higer in stalemate situations, instead of going for small risks on the flank. You'll play much more defensive because taking damage forces you to give up your position and go for a pack which would grant the other team more control of the flank, allowing for their soldier to go for a better sac etc. Weapon changes and class changes has had very minimal effect on the meta, believe it or not (except for maybe the medic movement speed buff). Teams have gotten better and realised that taking mindless uber trades and going for high risk high reward dry pushes is not always the best play. (Look at how kaidus changed his approach to the game from a very aggro demo, typically playing in very aggro teams, to how he played/coached in Crowns, who happened to win everything they participated in for over year)
If you think any proper feedback could be given from the ETF2L cup you're terribly wrong, 0 good teams signed up for that cup, the best team was Lowpander who rolled all their games in 10-15minutes.
[quote=JarateKing]I mean, the meta has been progressively getting slower and more stalematey, coincidentally as the crossbow kept getting buffed. Not entirely just the crossbow, the demo nerf slowed down the meta a low when it came out and the medic speed buff contributed when it happened, but there's a pretty strong correlation between crossbow buffs and a slower meta.
Not to mention etf2l's experiment with banning it in their cup seemed to be pretty positive that it sped the game up and made the meta overall better.[/quote]
Holy fuck what a garbage post, this might be your worst one yet.
The crossbow getting banned will not change the pace of the game whatsoever, teams will just play with the mindset that their hp is valued higer in stalemate situations, instead of going for small risks on the flank. You'll play much more defensive because taking damage forces you to give up your position and go for a pack which would grant the other team more control of the flank, allowing for their soldier to go for a better sac etc. Weapon changes and class changes has had very minimal effect on the meta, believe it or not (except for maybe the medic movement speed buff). Teams have gotten better and realised that taking mindless uber trades and going for high risk high reward dry pushes is not always the best play. (Look at how kaidus changed his approach to the game from a very aggro demo, typically playing in very aggro teams, to how he played/coached in Crowns, who happened to win everything they participated in for over year)
If you think any proper feedback could be given from the ETF2L cup you're terribly wrong, 0 good teams signed up for that cup, the best team was Lowpander who rolled all their games in 10-15minutes.
I can agree that the crossbow can be annoying to play against but remember you have a med with the crossbow as well man. It can heal about 75 HP at point blank / short range meaning that well that's about a medium range direct rocket. Not a lot, I mean. Roamer's main job is to kill the med or to take a pic and well bombing into the 300 health pocket or 260 HP demo won't help a lot if you are alone.
Makes the game slower......Hmmm, i disagree. Without the crossbow, HP will be a lot more valuable and therefore engagements, especially on the flank, will be less frequent. COnsequentiallly the game slows down. Imagine a passive playstyle team without the crossbow. They would go like full turtle with engi on the second point.
I think the crossbow is balanced. It's a weapon which rewards skill (or spam in case of damage intended arrows) Gives the medic another weapon which he can use to heal. The uber-building attribute made it that much better.
I can't recall in the past where the crossbow was abused or OP. Harbelu's snakewater play maybe but that was skill not luck.
Oh.....Shade dropping Knox with it across snake mid.......right.
ah well except that it is a perfectly balanced weapon at this stage
I can agree that the crossbow can be annoying to play against but remember you have a med with the crossbow as well man. It can heal about 75 HP at point blank / short range meaning that well that's about a medium range direct rocket. Not a lot, I mean. Roamer's main job is to kill the med or to take a pic and well bombing into the 300 health pocket or 260 HP demo won't help a lot if you are alone.
Makes the game slower......Hmmm, i disagree. Without the crossbow, HP will be a lot more valuable and therefore engagements, especially on the flank, will be less frequent. COnsequentiallly the game slows down. Imagine a passive playstyle team without the crossbow. They would go like full turtle with engi on the second point.
I think the crossbow is balanced. It's a weapon which rewards skill (or spam in case of damage intended arrows) Gives the medic another weapon which he can use to heal. The uber-building attribute made it that much better.
I can't recall in the past where the crossbow was abused or OP. Harbelu's snakewater play maybe but that was skill not luck.
Oh.....Shade dropping Knox with it across snake mid.......right.
ah well except that it is a perfectly balanced weapon at this stage
Kylo_renI can agree that the crossbow can be annoying to play against but remember you have a med with the crossbow as well man. It can heal about 75 HP at point blank / short range meaning that well that's about a medium range direct rocket. Not a lot, I mean. Roamer's main job is to kill the med or to take a pic and well bombing into the 300 health pocket or 260 HP demo won't help a lot if you are alone.
Makes the game slower......Hmmm, i disagree. Without the crossbow, HP will be a lot more valuable and therefore engagements, especially on the flank, will be less frequent. COnsequentiallly the game slows down. Imagine a passive playstyle team without the crossbow. They would go like full turtle with engi on the second point.
I think the crossbow is balanced. It's a weapon which rewards skill (or spam in case of damage intended arrows) Gives the medic another weapon which he can use to heal. The uber-building attribute made it that much better.
I can't recall in the past where the crossbow was abused or OP. Harbelu's snakewater play maybe but that was skill not luck.
Oh.....Shade dropping Knox with it across snake mid.......right.
ah well except that it is a perfectly balanced weapon at this stage
The healing and uber gain are the problems. If 75 was the max health that you could heal rather than the minimum, it'd be a bit less of an issue. Also the whole arrow building thing makes tracking ubers really difficult unless you know that a team is going to do it every time a stalemate is about to be reached. It's just things are at the point where if you're not running the crossbow you're throwing
Harbleu's double kill at i52 was really a triumphant victory over a situation that couldn't have been set up any more perfectly for him. Both of the remaining members of IM where low enough to the point that an ubersaw swipe and crossbow bolt would kill them both. Not to discredit the fact that that play alone was arguably the single best play to ever happen at a tf2 lan
Also that was TheFragile who dropped KnOxXx during that i55 snakewater match, unless you're counting shade's pick onto KnOxXx at i49 on process :)
[quote=Kylo_ren]I can agree that the crossbow can be annoying to play against but remember you have a med with the crossbow as well man. It can heal about 75 HP at point blank / short range meaning that well that's about a medium range direct rocket. Not a lot, I mean. Roamer's main job is to kill the med or to take a pic and well bombing into the 300 health pocket or 260 HP demo won't help a lot if you are alone.
Makes the game slower......Hmmm, i disagree. Without the crossbow, HP will be a lot more valuable and therefore engagements, especially on the flank, will be less frequent. COnsequentiallly the game slows down. Imagine a passive playstyle team without the crossbow. They would go like full turtle with engi on the second point.
I think the crossbow is balanced. It's a weapon which rewards skill (or spam in case of damage intended arrows) Gives the medic another weapon which he can use to heal. The uber-building attribute made it that much better.
I can't recall in the past where the crossbow was abused or OP. Harbelu's snakewater play maybe but that was skill not luck.
Oh.....Shade dropping Knox with it across snake mid.......right.
ah well except that it is a perfectly balanced weapon at this stage[/quote]
The healing and uber gain are the problems. If 75 was the max health that you could heal rather than the minimum, it'd be a bit less of an issue. Also the whole arrow building thing makes tracking ubers really difficult unless you know that a team is going to do it every time a stalemate is about to be reached. It's just things are at the point where if you're not running the crossbow you're throwing
Harbleu's double kill at i52 was really a triumphant victory over a situation that couldn't have been set up any more perfectly for him. Both of the remaining members of IM where low enough to the point that an ubersaw swipe and crossbow bolt would kill them both. Not to discredit the fact that that play alone was arguably the single best play to ever happen at a tf2 lan
Also that was TheFragile who dropped KnOxXx during that i55 snakewater match, unless you're counting shade's pick onto KnOxXx at i49 on process :)
KonceptKylo_renI can agree that the crossbow can be annoying to play against but remember you have a med with the crossbow as well man. It can heal about 75 HP at point blank / short range meaning that well that's about a medium range direct rocket. Not a lot, I mean. Roamer's main job is to kill the med or to take a pic and well bombing into the 300 health pocket or 260 HP demo won't help a lot if you are alone.
Makes the game slower......Hmmm, i disagree. Without the crossbow, HP will be a lot more valuable and therefore engagements, especially on the flank, will be less frequent. COnsequentiallly the game slows down. Imagine a passive playstyle team without the crossbow. They would go like full turtle with engi on the second point.
I think the crossbow is balanced. It's a weapon which rewards skill (or spam in case of damage intended arrows) Gives the medic another weapon which he can use to heal. The uber-building attribute made it that much better.
I can't recall in the past where the crossbow was abused or OP. Harbelu's snakewater play maybe but that was skill not luck.
Oh.....Shade dropping Knox with it across snake mid.......right.
ah well except that it is a perfectly balanced weapon at this stage
The healing and uber gain are the problems. If 75 was the max health that you could heal rather than the minimum, it'd be a bit less of an issue. Also the whole arrow building thing makes tracking ubers really difficult unless you know that a team is going to do it every time a stalemate is about to be reached. It's just things are at the point where if you're not running the crossbow you're throwing
Harbleu's double kill at i52 was really a triumphant victory over a situation that couldn't have been set up any more perfectly for him. Both of the remaining members of IM where low enough to the point that an ubersaw swipe and crossbow bolt would kill them both. Not to discredit the fact that that play alone was arguably the single best play to ever happen at a tf2 lan
Also that was TheFragile who dropped KnOxXx during that i55 snakewater match, unless you're counting shade's pick onto KnOxXx at i49 on process :)
Yeah sorry, i was referring to TheFragile. I knew it was one of the two so I picked shade. Think we can count both as spamming xD
Anyways I think the arrow building attribute was an unnecessary add and the weapon was fine on its own. For the rest i think its ok cause landing an across the map crossbow is really hard due to projectile arch and enemy's in between
[quote=Koncept][quote=Kylo_ren]I can agree that the crossbow can be annoying to play against but remember you have a med with the crossbow as well man. It can heal about 75 HP at point blank / short range meaning that well that's about a medium range direct rocket. Not a lot, I mean. Roamer's main job is to kill the med or to take a pic and well bombing into the 300 health pocket or 260 HP demo won't help a lot if you are alone.
Makes the game slower......Hmmm, i disagree. Without the crossbow, HP will be a lot more valuable and therefore engagements, especially on the flank, will be less frequent. COnsequentiallly the game slows down. Imagine a passive playstyle team without the crossbow. They would go like full turtle with engi on the second point.
I think the crossbow is balanced. It's a weapon which rewards skill (or spam in case of damage intended arrows) Gives the medic another weapon which he can use to heal. The uber-building attribute made it that much better.
I can't recall in the past where the crossbow was abused or OP. Harbelu's snakewater play maybe but that was skill not luck.
Oh.....Shade dropping Knox with it across snake mid.......right.
ah well except that it is a perfectly balanced weapon at this stage[/quote]
The healing and uber gain are the problems. If 75 was the max health that you could heal rather than the minimum, it'd be a bit less of an issue. Also the whole arrow building thing makes tracking ubers really difficult unless you know that a team is going to do it every time a stalemate is about to be reached. It's just things are at the point where if you're not running the crossbow you're throwing
Harbleu's double kill at i52 was really a triumphant victory over a situation that couldn't have been set up any more perfectly for him. Both of the remaining members of IM where low enough to the point that an ubersaw swipe and crossbow bolt would kill them both. Not to discredit the fact that that play alone was arguably the single best play to ever happen at a tf2 lan
Also that was TheFragile who dropped KnOxXx during that i55 snakewater match, unless you're counting shade's pick onto KnOxXx at i49 on process :)[/quote]
Yeah sorry, i was referring to TheFragile. I knew it was one of the two so I picked shade. Think we can count both as spamming xD
Anyways I think the arrow building attribute was an unnecessary add and the weapon was fine on its own. For the rest i think its ok cause landing an across the map crossbow is really hard due to projectile arch and enemy's in between
ban crossbow! make most open med mains quit! who needs them, right?
i am very smart man
ban crossbow! make most open med mains quit! who needs them, right?
i am very smart man
All of this really makes my head hurt. You're deliberately exaggerating so many situations.
chiefdogIt makes the game slower
-no longer in or out, now it's: "I'm in, nevermind I got denied, let me wait 2 sec so I can be arrowed and then I can go back in"
-Pushing of damage can no longer be done.
- How is getting healed quicker make it so the game is slower? You can easily argue it makes it quicker.
- So many arrows to get people back to good health are people that stand still for an easy arrow, or perhaps run in a straight line. Standing still or running in a straight line in an FPS game is the worst thing you can do, but you only see players do this for crossbows in very safe situations. If the damaged player was in a safe position, then a smart team wouldn't try to push off the damage.
chiefdogRoamer class even more useless
-All the damage you do is irrelevant as you have to actually kill the guy, otherwise he will be arrowed up again.
-The nerf on the roamer results in teams as Lowpander who play 5v6 and it makes no difference as long as they only take their roamer out of the equation. This also promotes the door watcher roamer gameplay as when u play aggro on damage you only bait your team because that person who you just bombed will be arrowed up to full health in no time.
- You could apply similar logic in just about any FPS game (ie: some people say "who cares about damage, it's all about the kills"). Honestly, a lot of this is easily applied to the last point i made in the previous quote.
- I cannot help but think you're a roamer main yourself, because you're bringing up a ton of exaggerated situations that honestly don't happen nearly as often as you claim (this being one of them). Once again, this exact same point can be easily applied to the last point I made in the previous quote.
chiefdogIts like the direct hit
-Seriously, it does 1 000 000 damage at any range and it takes no skill to aim.
- It takes no skill to aim? lol??? It's a projectile with a relatively small hitbox, no splash damage, not hitscan, extremely poor damage up close (while 75 at max range is fairly respectable), and shoots once per second. Yeah, you're right. It's totally like the direct hit. Fuck those no-skill-to-aim brainless direct hit soldiers that are killing this game.
chiefdogI had other reasons which I forgot for the moment but the underlying factor is that it is OP. Meaning it is ower powered and there is NO REASON to use any other primary medic weapon.
Please nerf this weapon, make it heal for less hp at close ranges, make it shoot slower or whatever, just fix it!
There are countless weapons in this game that are strictly better than their counterparts. Valve, for the most part, doesn't give a fuck about the balance of these weapons inside of competitive play. The community has done their best for a long time to deal with that.
I can't fathom why you'd want to take away a versatile weapon that, in my opinion, makes the game a lot more interesting (and certainly raises the medic skill ceiling). You can easily make an argument that running needles is better protect yourself, because that's a hell of a lot more reliable than trying to hit 4 close range arrows on a 125 hp scout. It's just the versatility of the crossbow that outweighs it. Needles are better on some parts of some maps (A decent chunk of Granary comes to mind), but people never feel like getting stuck with needles, I suppose.
While discussion is always good for things like this, I feel like the crossbow shouldn't even be anywhere close to the top for banning.
All of this really makes my head hurt. You're deliberately exaggerating so many situations.
[quote=chiefdog][b]It makes the game slower[/b]
-no longer in or out, now it's: "I'm in, nevermind I got denied, let me wait 2 sec so I can be arrowed and then I can go back in"
-Pushing of damage can no longer be done.[/quote]
- How is getting healed quicker make it so the game is slower? You can easily argue it makes it quicker.
- So many arrows to get people back to good health are people that stand still for an easy arrow, or perhaps run in a straight line. Standing still or running in a straight line in an FPS game is the worst thing you can do, but you only see players do this for crossbows in very safe situations. If the damaged player was in a safe position, then a smart team wouldn't try to push off the damage.
[quote=chiefdog]
[b]Roamer class even more useless[/b]
-All the damage you do is irrelevant as you have to actually kill the guy, otherwise he will be arrowed up again.
-The nerf on the roamer results in teams as Lowpander who play 5v6 and it makes no difference as long as they only take their roamer out of the equation. This also promotes the door watcher roamer gameplay as when u play aggro on damage you only bait your team because that person who you just bombed will be arrowed up to full health in no time.[/quote]
- You could apply similar logic in just about any FPS game (ie: some people say "who cares about damage, it's all about the kills"). Honestly, a lot of this is easily applied to the last point i made in the previous quote.
- I cannot help but think you're a roamer main yourself, because you're bringing up a ton of exaggerated situations that honestly don't happen nearly as often as you claim (this being one of them). Once again, this exact same point can be easily applied to the last point I made in the previous quote.
[quote=chiefdog]
[b]Its like the direct hit[/b]
-Seriously, it does 1 000 000 damage at any range and it takes no skill to aim. [/quote]
- It takes no skill to aim? lol??? It's a projectile with a relatively small hitbox, no splash damage, not hitscan, extremely poor damage up close (while 75 at max range is fairly respectable), and shoots once per second. Yeah, you're right. It's totally like the direct hit. Fuck those no-skill-to-aim brainless direct hit soldiers that are killing this game.
[quote=chiefdog]
I had other reasons which I forgot for the moment but the underlying factor is that it is OP. Meaning it is ower powered and there is NO REASON to use any other primary medic weapon.
Please nerf this weapon, make it heal for less hp at close ranges, make it shoot slower or whatever, just fix it![/quote]
There are countless weapons in this game that are strictly better than their counterparts. Valve, for the most part, doesn't give a fuck about the balance of these weapons inside of competitive play. The community has done their best for a long time to deal with that.
I can't fathom why you'd want to take away a versatile weapon that, in my opinion, makes the game a lot more interesting (and certainly raises the medic skill ceiling). You can easily make an argument that running needles is better protect yourself, because that's a hell of a lot more reliable than trying to hit 4 close range arrows on a 125 hp scout. It's just the versatility of the crossbow that outweighs it. Needles are better on some parts of some maps (A decent chunk of Granary comes to mind), but people never feel like getting stuck with needles, I suppose.
While discussion is always good for things like this, I feel like the crossbow shouldn't even be anywhere close to the top for banning.
sageX Soldier fucks up with a dumbass play
X Soldier gets instantly healed to 200 hp instead of dying thanks to //standing still//
:thinking:
if the soldier can get reliably healed to 200hp then i guess its not a dumbass play eh
Waldoi think that having every player play tetris through the esea client while playing (if you lose in game you die) would raise the skill ceiling and therefore should be a part of the ruleset
anyone who disagrees is just trying to prevent skilled players from having an advantage
i agree completely with this idea
[quote=sage]X Soldier fucks up with a dumbass play
X Soldier gets instantly healed to 200 hp instead of dying thanks to //standing still//
:thinking:[/quote]
if the soldier can get reliably healed to 200hp then i guess its not a dumbass play eh
[quote=Waldo]i think that having every player play tetris through the esea client while playing (if you lose in game you die) would raise the skill ceiling and therefore should be a part of the ruleset
anyone who disagrees is just trying to prevent skilled players from having an advantage[/quote]
i agree completely with this idea
Nerfing medic (by banning crossbow) will just make medic less desirable to play. Definitely not something anybody should want at this state
Nerfing medic (by banning crossbow) will just make medic less desirable to play. Definitely not something anybody should want at this state
I wouldnt say banning the crossbow is the right answer, but since it's a direct upgrade to any other med primary it should probably be nerfed
I wouldnt say banning the crossbow is the right answer, but since it's a direct upgrade to any other med primary it should probably be nerfed
was just wondering what fragile thought about this actually. we've also heard from marxist. i'd like to know what shade, raymon, etc think. i don't know why all these random people think we care about their opinion.
was just wondering what fragile thought about this actually. we've also heard from marxist. i'd like to know what shade, raymon, etc think. i don't know why all these random people think we care about their opinion.