I started to think about 6s meta and balance, and I decided to see things from both sides. I'm just a pub player who has been watching competitive for few years, and I'm curious about discussing the topic.
While I don't agree with ideas that specialist classes like Heavy, Engineer, Pyro, Sniper and Spy should be available to be run all the time, I also don't like how they're pretty much only used in last points of the maps.
I personally think that Heavy, Sniper and Spy are pretty fine in their current point, but my problem is with Pyro and Engineer. And because Pyro will hopefully be fixed in the upcoming update, I think we should talk about the Engineer.
My problem with the Engineer as a defensive class is that it's too similar with the Heavy, and that in coordinated game, Sentry is easy to destroy. But in the other side, if we just buff Sentries, game would become much slower and more stale.
However, what Engineer has as a potential is his support abilities. Teleports and dispensers are a good concept in my opinion, and with some changes I think Engineer would work as a support class in 6s pretty well.
But there's one big problem: We need to think in both competitive's and pub's perspective, so class would not become unbalanced in either mode. As such, I've made a similar thread in Steam Forums forums, and wile it's overall garbage, there are some experienced Pub players who bring up good points, so we could get their perspective about this discussion. I'll copy their ideas here, so we can discuss about them, as well.
And now we come to the point of the discussion: Everything about fixing Engineer. Do you want him to be more supportive or defensive? Should there be some weapon balances or just weapon bans?
I started to think about 6s meta and balance, and I decided to see things from both sides. I'm just a pub player who has been watching competitive for few years, and I'm curious about discussing the topic.
While I don't agree with ideas that specialist classes like Heavy, Engineer, Pyro, Sniper and Spy should be available to be run all the time, I also don't like how they're pretty much only used in last points of the maps.
I personally think that Heavy, Sniper and Spy are pretty fine in their current point, but my problem is with Pyro and Engineer. And because Pyro will hopefully be fixed in the upcoming update, I think we should talk about the Engineer.
My problem with the Engineer as a defensive class is that it's too similar with the Heavy, and that in coordinated game, Sentry is easy to destroy. But in the other side, if we just buff Sentries, game would become much slower and more stale.
However, what Engineer has as a potential is his support abilities. Teleports and dispensers are a good concept in my opinion, and with some changes I think Engineer would work as a support class in 6s pretty well.
But there's one big problem: We need to think in both competitive's and pub's perspective, so class would not become unbalanced in either mode. As such, I've made a similar thread in Steam Forums forums, and wile it's overall garbage, there are some experienced Pub players who bring up good points, so we could get their perspective about this discussion. I'll copy their ideas here, so we can discuss about them, as well.
And now we come to the point of the discussion: Everything about fixing Engineer. Do you want him to be more supportive or defensive? Should there be some weapon balances or just weapon bans?
I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about engineer balance when it seems unlikely that Valve will touch him any time soon, but I'll throw an opinion I've had about engie for a long time
I wish that engie had been designed and balanced around the minisentry rather than level 3. A minisentry engie can use it to soft hold a position while still being active with the shotgun and pistol, and I think that sort of gameplay fits a first person shooter more than building a level 3 gun and wrenching it until it goes down.
I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about engineer balance when it seems unlikely that Valve will touch him any time soon, but I'll throw an opinion I've had about engie for a long time
I wish that engie had been designed and balanced around the minisentry rather than level 3. A minisentry engie can use it to soft hold a position while still being active with the shotgun and pistol, and I think that sort of gameplay fits a first person shooter more than building a level 3 gun and wrenching it until it goes down.
I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about engineer balance when it seems unlikely that Valve will touch him any time soon, but I'll throw an opinion I've had about engie for a long time
This a good point, and I know that it's not going to change Valve's mind, I just wanted to know overall opinion and ideas of Pub- and Competitive players, and maybe have some nice discussion.
[quote]I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about engineer balance when it seems unlikely that Valve will touch him any time soon, but I'll throw an opinion I've had about engie for a long time[/quote]
This a good point, and I know that it's not going to change Valve's mind, I just wanted to know overall opinion and ideas of Pub- and Competitive players, and maybe have some nice discussion.
I wish that engie had been designed and balanced around the minisentry rather than level 3. A minisentry engie can use it to soft hold a position while still being active with the shotgun and pistol, and I think that sort of gameplay fits a first person shooter more than building a level 3 gun and wrenching it until it goes down.
Good point aswell. When I thought about his myself, Gunslinger and Mini-sentry became first to mind, and for same reason. However, I think it's kinda weak at its current point due to its recent nerf because of some Pub player's whining.
But still, I think Gunslinger Engineer has potential.
[quote]I wish that engie had been designed and balanced around the minisentry rather than level 3. A minisentry engie can use it to soft hold a position while still being active with the shotgun and pistol, and I think that sort of gameplay fits a first person shooter more than building a level 3 gun and wrenching it until it goes down.[/quote]
Good point aswell. When I thought about his myself, Gunslinger and Mini-sentry became first to mind, and for same reason. However, I think it's kinda weak at its current point due to its recent nerf because of some Pub player's whining.
But still, I think Gunslinger Engineer has potential.
On steam forums, some people were against the idea of puffing Engineer's mini sentry
The problem is that heavy and sentries aren't fun to play against. Imagine being punished for boming a poorly position medic because one of the engineers you killed earlier has a mini still up. Or trying to flank a team when there's a mini placed just behind them. Heavy is just as bad. Being knocked back airborn for jumping by a 450 hp walking sentry. Having one of these sepcialist classes buffed to the point where they're "6s viable" will force teams to play more passive and run sniper full time against heavy or scout around for any hidden sentries, slowing down the entire game and making the game both boring to play and watch.
Any thoughts?
On steam forums, some people were against the idea of puffing Engineer's mini sentry
[quote]The problem is that heavy and sentries aren't fun to play against. Imagine being punished for boming a poorly position medic because one of the engineers you killed earlier has a mini still up. Or trying to flank a team when there's a mini placed just behind them. Heavy is just as bad. Being knocked back airborn for jumping by a 450 hp walking sentry. Having one of these sepcialist classes buffed to the point where they're "6s viable" will force teams to play more passive and run sniper full time against heavy or scout around for any hidden sentries, slowing down the entire game and making the game both boring to play and watch.[/quote]
Any thoughts?
CrenicusOn steam forums, some people were against the idea of puffing Engineer's mini sentry
The problem is that heavy and sentries aren't fun to play against. Imagine being punished for boming a poorly position medic because one of the engineers you killed earlier has a mini still up. Or trying to flank a team when there's a mini placed just behind them. Heavy is just as bad. Being knocked back airborn for jumping by a 450 hp walking sentry. Having one of these sepcialist classes buffed to the point where they're "6s viable" will force teams to play more passive and run sniper full time against heavy or scout around for any hidden sentries, slowing down the entire game and making the game both boring to play and watch.
Any thoughts?
Look what happened to their forums
[quote=Crenicus]On steam forums, some people were against the idea of puffing Engineer's mini sentry
[quote]The problem is that heavy and sentries aren't fun to play against. Imagine being punished for boming a poorly position medic because one of the engineers you killed earlier has a mini still up. Or trying to flank a team when there's a mini placed just behind them. Heavy is just as bad. Being knocked back airborn for jumping by a 450 hp walking sentry. Having one of these sepcialist classes buffed to the point where they're "6s viable" will force teams to play more passive and run sniper full time against heavy or scout around for any hidden sentries, slowing down the entire game and making the game both boring to play and watch.[/quote]
Any thoughts?[/quote]
Look what happened to their forums
I agree that it's a garbage, nothing new. I was just asking.
Well, I got my answer that you think it's a bad idea. Thanks.
I agree that it's a garbage, nothing new. I was just asking.
Well, I got my answer that you think it's a bad idea. Thanks.
TBH engineer has no right to be in this game, it's just a remnant from TFC (same with pyro IMHO).
All engy does is allow for highlander to exist in its current form (not a good or bad thing, just a thing).
TBH engineer has no right to be in this game, it's just a remnant from TFC (same with pyro IMHO).
All engy does is allow for highlander to exist in its current form (not a good or bad thing, just a thing).
MakTBH engineer has no right to be in this game, it's just a remnant from TFC (same with pyro IMHO).
All engy does is allow for highlander to exist in its current form (not a good or bad thing, just a thing).
Engineer is pretty important to pubs (due to large team size) just for the dispenser & teleports, although YMMV heavily depending on what maps you pub on.
[quote=Mak]TBH engineer has no right to be in this game, it's just a remnant from TFC (same with pyro IMHO).
All engy does is allow for highlander to exist in its current form (not a good or bad thing, just a thing).[/quote]
Engineer is pretty important to pubs (due to large team size) just for the dispenser & teleports, although YMMV heavily depending on what maps you pub on.
Engineer is never going to be viable in 6v6.
Teleporters and dispensers arent viable as a serious concept in 6es simply because of the 5cp momentum. You get backspawned if you lose a fight/point, you get forward spawned if you win a fight/point. Dispensers heal for almost nothing and have a tiny range - the ammo resupply is nice on last holds though. In the end youre looking at minimum utility that doesnt justify running engineer more than the last point.
Gunslinger was the bane of pubs back when they used to self-repair during buildup. Theyre not a big deal now, a minor inconvenience that can zone out certain classes at best. Which is good, considering how stupid it was when engineer (not a primary combat class) 1v1s, or teamfights - or any fight really - became a 1v2 / fight with extra unscaled range damage. You had to kill a self-repairing sentry with about 1.5 second of buildup time that would deal around 50 dps, without any significant skill needed. Most of the time you were simply put forced to run away.
Gunslinger is by no means "weak" in its current state, the nerf was very justified. Getting a mini up in organized 6es doesnt really do a whole lot 95% of the time. It has its moments of denying space to some classes, weakening jumping roamers or just being a distraction that deals extra damage but its really not worth switching a scout/roamer for a stationary gimmick and a slower scout, except when you build lvl3s on last.
The class is fine as it is, minus some unlocks that never should have been added to the game. 6es was never about tactical base building or utility, you need to be mobile, kill people and capture points. Engineer does its job of setting up a stronghold well in pubs and theres not much reason to change it or try to implement it in 6v6.
And lol @ "experienced pub players". If you post on TFTV and mention something like that nobody is going to take you seriously.
Engineer is never going to be viable in 6v6.
Teleporters and dispensers arent viable as a serious concept in 6es simply because of the 5cp momentum. You get backspawned if you lose a fight/point, you get forward spawned if you win a fight/point. Dispensers heal for almost nothing and have a tiny range - the ammo resupply is nice on last holds though. In the end youre looking at minimum utility that doesnt justify running engineer more than the last point.
Gunslinger was the bane of pubs back when they used to self-repair during buildup. Theyre not a big deal now, a minor inconvenience that can zone out certain classes at best. Which is good, considering how stupid it was when engineer (not a primary combat class) 1v1s, or teamfights - or any fight really - became a 1v2 / fight with extra unscaled range damage. You had to kill a self-repairing sentry with about 1.5 second of buildup time that would deal around 50 dps, without any significant skill needed. Most of the time you were simply put forced to run away.
Gunslinger is by no means "weak" in its current state, the nerf was very justified. Getting a mini up in organized 6es doesnt really do a whole lot 95% of the time. It has its moments of denying space to some classes, weakening jumping roamers or just being a distraction that deals extra damage but its really not worth switching a scout/roamer for a stationary gimmick and a slower scout, except when you build lvl3s on last.
The class is fine as it is, minus some unlocks that never should have been added to the game. 6es was never about tactical base building or utility, you need to be mobile, kill people and capture points. Engineer does its job of setting up a stronghold well in pubs and theres not much reason to change it or try to implement it in 6v6.
And lol @ "experienced pub players". If you post on TFTV and mention something like that nobody is going to take you seriously.
6v6 = mainly 5cp
5cp = Not the best gamemode for Engineer outside of defensive scenerios
Answered your question.
6v6 = mainly 5cp
5cp = Not the best gamemode for Engineer outside of defensive scenerios
Answered your question.
And lol @ "experienced pub players". If you post on TFTV and mention something like that nobody is going to take you seriously.
My apologies, I didn't know any other way to describe more "mature" Pub players. Got it.
[quote]And lol @ "experienced pub players". If you post on TFTV and mention something like that nobody is going to take you seriously.[/quote]
My apologies, I didn't know any other way to describe more "mature" Pub players. Got it.
i believe engineer has the best voice acting in the whole game.
fucks sake guys, we need to make him more viable.
i would start by moving that gear up.
i believe engineer has the best voice acting in the whole game.
fucks sake guys, we need to make him more viable.
i would start by moving that gear up.
The best way to increase the usage of any of the non-stock 6s classes is to start playing maps that aren't 5cp or koth. Personally I don't see it happening (despite being fairly open to the idea myself) as the majority of the community is fine with what we have now.
The best way to increase the usage of any of the non-stock 6s classes is to start playing maps that aren't 5cp or koth. Personally I don't see it happening (despite being fairly open to the idea myself) as the majority of the community is fine with what we have now.
DarkNecridEngineer is pretty important to pubs (due to large team size) just for the dispenser & teleports, although YMMV heavily depending on what maps you pub on.
I get what ur saying and 1/2 engies per side really does actually add depth/enjoyment, but engineer has to be one of the most un-fun classes to play against in multiples (let alone just on pubs).
[quote=DarkNecrid]Engineer is pretty important to pubs (due to large team size) just for the dispenser & teleports, although YMMV heavily depending on what maps you pub on.[/quote]
I get what ur saying and 1/2 engies per side really does actually add depth/enjoyment, but engineer has to be one of the most un-fun classes to play against in multiples (let alone just on pubs).
Do you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?
Do you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?
CrenicusDo you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?
The answer here is that no mappers want to make AD maps, or really any different game modes for 6s due to the overwhelming negativity towards the idea
[quote=Crenicus]Do you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?[/quote]
The answer here is that no mappers want to make AD maps, or really any different game modes for 6s due to the overwhelming negativity towards the idea
MouldCrenicusDo you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?
The answer here is that no mappers want to make AD maps, or really any different game modes for 6s due to the overwhelming negativity towards the idea
Oh, I see.
[quote=Mould][quote=Crenicus]Do you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?[/quote]
The answer here is that no mappers want to make AD maps, or really any different game modes for 6s due to the overwhelming negativity towards the idea[/quote]
Oh, I see.
MouldCrenicusDo you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?
The answer here is that no mappers want to make AD maps, or really any different game modes for 6s due to the overwhelming negativity towards the idea
rip pl tapline
[quote=Mould][quote=Crenicus]Do you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?[/quote]
The answer here is that no mappers want to make AD maps, or really any different game modes for 6s due to the overwhelming negativity towards the idea[/quote]
rip pl tapline
Run Mini Engie outside of last when both of their soldiers are using cow Mangler.
Hilarity ensues.
Run Mini Engie outside of last when both of their soldiers are using cow Mangler.
Hilarity ensues.
MouldCrenicusDo you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?
The answer here is that no mappers want to make AD maps, or really any different game modes for 6s due to the overwhelming negativity towards the idea
Not the whole truth, stopwatch gamemodes simply don't work well because of the time it takes to finish a map. whenever gravelpit was in the mappool people didn't want to scrim it for they could play 2 5cp maps in the same time. Same goes for payload, not to mention how badly it plays.
koth and ctf are the only real alternatives but valve's ctf is messed up (crits for winning team) and from my understanding it's hard to make an enjoyable koth map
[quote=Mould][quote=Crenicus]Do you guys like the idea of more gamemodes in 6s, or some changes in 5CP maps?[/quote]
The answer here is that no mappers want to make AD maps, or really any different game modes for 6s due to the overwhelming negativity towards the idea[/quote]
Not the whole truth, stopwatch gamemodes simply don't work well because of the time it takes to finish a map. whenever gravelpit was in the mappool people didn't want to scrim it for they could play 2 5cp maps in the same time. Same goes for payload, not to mention how badly it plays.
koth and ctf are the only real alternatives but valve's ctf is messed up (crits for winning team) and from my understanding it's hard to make an enjoyable koth map
"Experienced pub players" lol
"Experienced pub players" lol
Doom1"Experienced pub players" lol
CrenicusAnd lol @ "experienced pub players". If you post on TFTV and mention something like that nobody is going to take you seriously.
My apologies, I didn't know any other way to describe more "mature" Pub players. Got it.
[quote=Doom1]"Experienced pub players" lol[/quote]
[quote=Crenicus][quote]And lol @ "experienced pub players". If you post on TFTV and mention something like that nobody is going to take you seriously.[/quote]
My apologies, I didn't know any other way to describe more "mature" Pub players. Got it.[/quote]
what got me interested in the competitive scene from pubbing was that there wasn't any engineers on every point. its both the least fun class to play against and, unless you're sigafoo or something, the least fun to play. i don't think it should be made more viable
what got me interested in the competitive scene from pubbing was that there wasn't any engineers on every point. its both the least fun class to play against and, unless you're sigafoo or something, the least fun to play. i don't think it should be made more viable
SpadesRun Mini Engie outside of last when both of their soldiers are using cow Mangler.
Hilarity ensues.
may god have mercy on your soul
[quote=Spades]Run Mini Engie outside of last when both of their soldiers are using cow Mangler.
Hilarity ensues.[/quote]
may god have mercy on your soul
lettovalve's ctf is messed up (crits for winning team) and from my understanding it's hard to make an enjoyable koth map
also ctf where you can't return flag by touching it is shit
[quote=letto]valve's ctf is messed up (crits for winning team) and from my understanding it's hard to make an enjoyable koth map[/quote]
also ctf where you can't return flag by touching it is shit
class w/ portable aimbot in competitive video games LUL
class w/ portable aimbot in competitive video games LUL
the301stspartanLook what happened to their forums
RIP
OT: The Engineer is shit for this game and the only way IMO to make him "fun" or "competitive" is to take power away from his gun and give it to utility. Sadly his identity is "guy next to turret" so the changes Valve could make are limited. Stock/+Eureka is my favorite way to play Engineer and why I originally played him on launch. You place your buildings, run around and help your team, and if people group on your Sentry - it dies. You could turtle the gun with teammates but it wasn't as effective as now with terrible concepts like Wrangler having a shield and Short-Circuit.
Having aimbot annoyances in a competitive game is frustrating and it only exists in the base game the reduce stomping from better players. TF2 has this interesting design where you can be skillful at classes to get results but there are also ways for casual players to keep up. For example the Ambassador and the Enforcer allow Spy to take out Razorback Snipers. Ambassador rewards accuracy and has versatility from that. Enforcer can still 2 shot a Sniper (providing you have a disguise) but lacks the overall effectiveness of consistent headshot damage. The Engineer exists in that same vein. You have Scout who can take territory and murder most classes on his terms. Engineer has one of the weakest sets of weapons but with his buildings he can declare his own terms for combat. If Engineer didn't exist then Scouts would be very dominant in pub play.
The point being that while I definitely agree Engineer is a shit class and doesn't fit well into 6v6 - he is necessary in Team Fortress 2. So a competitive balancing that allows for Engineer to still burden Scouts and other classes like Pyro and Demoknight but be interactive enough to feel satisfying will be extremely difficult. I don't believe Engineer can be successful as a 100% skill based class and not step on the toes of Scout or Heavy, he should play like a Support in some regard and make plays through Game Sense and strategy.
>lolHL Engineer Main who is open minded. Fire away.
[quote=the301stspartan]Look what happened to their forums[/quote]
[url=https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/866229382833902001/ECCB04C361880185A252660A013CCCF09D0C603A//]RIP[/url]
OT: The Engineer is shit for this game and the only way IMO to make him "fun" or "competitive" is to take power away from his gun and give it to utility. Sadly his identity is "guy next to turret" so the changes Valve could make are limited. Stock/+Eureka is my favorite way to play Engineer and why I originally played him on launch. You place your buildings, run around and help your team, and if people group on your Sentry - it dies. You could turtle the gun with teammates but it wasn't as effective as now with terrible concepts like Wrangler having a shield and Short-Circuit.
Having aimbot annoyances in a competitive game is frustrating and it only exists in the base game the reduce stomping from better players. TF2 has this interesting design where you can be skillful at classes to get results but there are also ways for casual players to keep up. For example the Ambassador and the Enforcer allow Spy to take out Razorback Snipers. Ambassador rewards accuracy and has versatility from that. Enforcer can still 2 shot a Sniper (providing you have a disguise) but lacks the overall effectiveness of consistent headshot damage. The Engineer exists in that same vein. You have Scout who can take territory and murder most classes on his terms. Engineer has one of the weakest sets of weapons but with his buildings he can declare his own terms for combat. If Engineer didn't exist then Scouts would be very dominant in pub play.
The point being that while I definitely agree Engineer is a shit class and doesn't fit well into 6v6 - he is necessary in Team Fortress 2. So a competitive balancing that allows for Engineer to still burden Scouts and other classes like Pyro and Demoknight but be interactive enough to feel satisfying will be extremely difficult. I don't believe Engineer can be successful as a 100% skill based class and not step on the toes of Scout or Heavy, he should play like a Support in some regard and make plays through Game Sense and strategy.
>lolHL Engineer Main who is open minded. Fire away.
In a game that is based so much around a very high movement and aim ceiling, we have the engineer, which is the antithesis of both movement and aim. The only real use for engineer in 5cp is its level three to defend last, and while its a relatively easy object to take down, the fact that it is literally an aimbot just emphasizes that it doesn't belong in this game...Dying to a scout is not an excuse to pull out an aimbot, it means you need to rethink your positioning/improve your DM, whereas dying to an engineer's turret as a scout just leaves you scratching your head in frustration.
funhaver1998what got me interested in the competitive scene from pubbing was that there wasn't any engineers on every point.
This is also totally me lol
tldr engineer isn't fun and is an aimbot so please ban/nerf to the ground for 6v6.
In a game that is based so much around a very high movement and aim ceiling, we have the engineer, which is the antithesis of both movement and aim. The only real use for engineer in 5cp is its level three to defend last, and while its a relatively easy object to take down, the fact that it is literally an [b]aimbot[/b] just emphasizes that it doesn't belong in this game...Dying to a scout is not an excuse to pull out an aimbot, it means you need to rethink your positioning/improve your DM, whereas dying to an engineer's turret as a scout just leaves you scratching your head in frustration.
[quote=funhaver1998]what got me interested in the competitive scene from pubbing was that there wasn't any engineers on every point.[/quote] This is also totally me lol
tldr engineer isn't fun and is an aimbot so please ban/nerf to the ground for 6v6.