Heart of the Oak (5cp)

#1

invalidnick

0 Frags – +

Hello,
If you have a few minutes over I'd very much appreciate any type of feedback regarding my map cp_hoto_xx (Heart of the Oak) which saw its beginnings in the past 72h mapping event at tf2maps.com,
Layout wise its pretty simple with angles to benefit different play styles, I got roots in q1/2/3 and hldm, but am not familiar with competitive tf2 outside of public mym...any suggestions/feedback is very welcome!
ggs

--------------------
Current version, cp_hoto_b13
Direct download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/download?version=11693
Dev thread: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/
On the workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=962571666

Beta 13 update includes:

- updated layout near initial spawn and A capture point
- updated layout approaching B capture point
- changed cellar door to open/close once B is captured
- added a few ammo packs
- fixed a few clipping issues
- decreased fog
- updated skybox
- added a few ammo packs
--------------------

Thanks for your time!
ggs

Hello,
If you have a few minutes over I'd very much appreciate any type of feedback regarding my map cp_hoto_xx (Heart of the Oak) which saw its beginnings in the past 72h mapping event at tf2maps.com,
Layout wise its pretty simple with angles to benefit different play styles, I got roots in q1/2/3 and hldm, but am not familiar with competitive tf2 outside of public mym...any suggestions/feedback is very welcome!
ggs

--------------------
Current version, [b]cp_hoto_b13[/b]
[b]Direct download:[/b] https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/download?version=11693
Dev thread: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/
On the workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=962571666

Beta 13 update includes:

- updated layout near initial spawn and A capture point
- updated layout approaching B capture point
- changed cellar door to open/close once B is captured
- added a few ammo packs
- fixed a few clipping issues
- decreased fog
- updated skybox
- added a few ammo packs
--------------------

Thanks for your time!
ggs

#2

tambo

13 Frags – +

d2 runeword=great map

#3

tony

newbie.tf

40 Frags – +

holy fuck this map looks cool

#4

bleghfarec

8 Frags – +

https://tf2maps.net/threads/heart-of-the-oak.31432/

tf2 maps thread + direct dl

https://tf2maps.net/threads/heart-of-the-oak.31432/

tf2 maps thread + direct dl

#5

Stevie

11 Frags – +

Looks cool; Different feeling

#6

Traxgarte

20 Frags – +

Played a lobby in it, and while some entrances are too narrow, there's so many of them that i think pushing/saccing is actually viable.

I like the height of the skybox, allows for movement without many interruptions, but some corridors feel just a bit too low and juggling someone there a bit too easy.

Some sightlines are big, but at the same time playing around corners and jumping around should be enough to avoid them.

Last seems a bit too hard to push sometimes when the defending team has the highground, but at the same time when you get your team on highground, it should be gg. I also like the bottom-left corridor in last that allows ubering right into the point, but i would have to play a more decent game to really judge last. As of right now it looks like it would either be hard or too easy to push due to that path to highground.

Really liked it, quite a different feel from current 5cp maps but really enjoyable imo.

Played a lobby in it, and while some entrances are too narrow, there's so many of them that i think pushing/saccing is actually viable.

I like the height of the skybox, allows for movement without many interruptions, but some corridors feel just a bit too low and juggling someone there a bit too easy.

Some sightlines are big, but at the same time playing around corners and jumping around should be enough to avoid them.

Last seems a bit too hard to push sometimes when the defending team has the highground, but at the same time when you get your team on highground, it should be gg. I also like the bottom-left corridor in last that allows ubering right into the point, but i would have to play a more decent game to really judge last. As of right now it looks like it would either be hard or too easy to push due to that path to highground.

Really liked it, quite a different feel from current 5cp maps but really enjoyable imo.

#7

zaint

34 Frags – +

This looks amazing, the theme looks really Quake'ish

#8

Shame

1 Frags – +

It looks fantastic! I love it

#9

buttercup

2 Frags – +

I love this map

#10

31

6 Frags – +

this map plus like jungle background sounds would be realy cool

#11

sage

9 Frags – +

it has loads of problems but i love it
dropdown to mid is iffy and huge, ive seen some meds backing into that and being trapped
high ground in last (left exit from spawn) seems too powerful

~~edit: stadium lobby to playtest~~ (timed out)
edit2:
album with problems and suggestions (can exit map in top of mid)
Vid showing the main collision problems
Demoman rollout

it has loads of problems but i love it
dropdown to mid is iffy and huge, ive seen some meds backing into that and being trapped
high ground in last (left exit from spawn) seems too powerful

[s]edit: stadium lobby to playtest[/s] (timed out)
edit2:
[url=http://imgur.com/a/uq3vo]album with problems and suggestions (can exit map in top of mid)[/url]
[url=https://youtu.be/vMKyoBNqC58]Vid showing the main collision problems[/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaNzv80vWEE&feature=youtu.be]Demoman rollout[/url]

#12

HiipFire

7 Frags – +

looks cool, would be interested in doing some playtesting sometime

#13

invalidnick

4 Frags – +

Wow thanks for the response everyone! :D

TraxgartePlayed a lobby in it, and while some entrances are too narrow, there's so many of them that i think pushing/saccing is actually viable.

I like the height of the skybox, allows for movement without many interruptions, but some corridors feel just a bit too low and juggling someone there a bit too easy.

Some sightlines are big, but at the same time playing around corners and jumping around should be enough to avoid them.

Last seems a bit too hard to push sometimes when the defending team has the highground, but at the same time when you get your team on highground, it should be gg. I also like the bottom-left corridor in last that allows ubering right into the point, but i would have to play a more decent game to really judge last. As of right now it looks like it would either be hard or too easy to push due to that path to highground.

Really liked it, quite a different feel from current 5cp maps but really enjoyable imo.

Thanks for the feedback! Never tried this in 6v6 (only 12v12) at which it feels like defending/attacking team can easily steam roll the other team after a few good picks and just throw bodies at them to cap, one thing I observed from earlier versions was that last was too easy to hold - and ended up being almost impossible to take,
Perhaps limit the highground ramps to one (instead of two) sides for the attacker,

sageit has loads of problems but i love it
dropdown to mid is iffy and huge, ive seen some meds backing into that and being trapped
high ground in last (left exit from spawn) seems too powerful

~~edit: stadium lobby to playtest~~ (timed out)
edit2:
album with problems and suggestions (can exit map in top of mid)
Vid showing the main collision problems
Demoman rollout

Awesome thanks for the feedback! will fix all those collision issues!
Regarding the demoman rollout, is it too easy to jump across the map?

Wow thanks for the response everyone! :D

[quote=Traxgarte]Played a lobby in it, and while some entrances are too narrow, there's so many of them that i think pushing/saccing is actually viable.

I like the height of the skybox, allows for movement without many interruptions, but some corridors feel just a bit too low and juggling someone there a bit too easy.

Some sightlines are big, but at the same time playing around corners and jumping around should be enough to avoid them.

Last seems a bit too hard to push sometimes when the defending team has the highground, but at the same time when you get your team on highground, it should be gg. I also like the bottom-left corridor in last that allows ubering right into the point, but i would have to play a more decent game to really judge last. As of right now it looks like it would either be hard or too easy to push due to that path to highground.

Really liked it, quite a different feel from current 5cp maps but really enjoyable imo.[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback! Never tried this in 6v6 (only 12v12) at which it feels like defending/attacking team can easily steam roll the other team after a few good picks and just throw bodies at them to cap, one thing I observed from earlier versions was that last was too easy to hold - and ended up being almost impossible to take,
Perhaps limit the highground ramps to one (instead of two) sides for the attacker,

[quote=sage]it has loads of problems but i love it
dropdown to mid is iffy and huge, ive seen some meds backing into that and being trapped
high ground in last (left exit from spawn) seems too powerful

[s]edit: stadium lobby to playtest[/s] (timed out)
edit2:
[url=http://imgur.com/a/uq3vo]album with problems and suggestions (can exit map in top of mid)[/url]
[url=https://youtu.be/vMKyoBNqC58]Vid showing the main collision problems[/url]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaNzv80vWEE&feature=youtu.be]Demoman rollout[/url][/quote]

Awesome thanks for the feedback! will fix all those collision issues!
Regarding the demoman rollout, is it too easy to jump across the map?

#14

alba

8 Frags – +

I think the demoman rollout is fine.

The art style of the map is great, I really like it. Regarding the layout and feedback about the map I will have to wait until I get home. Looks promising though!

I think the demoman rollout is fine.

The art style of the map is great, I really like it. Regarding the layout and feedback about the map I will have to wait until I get home. Looks promising though!

#15

Moist_Penguin

4 Frags – +

it certainly looks worth testing. I agree with the earlier statements that there does seem to be too much high ground around last.

I also found a few issues which are in this album http://imgur.com/a/Fmesw

The hiding spots I found arent massive issues but the one above spawn would be very frustrating to die to. The one above 2nd is more of a personal choice if you want to keep them.

it certainly looks worth testing. I agree with the earlier statements that there does seem to be too much high ground around last.

I also found a few issues which are in this album http://imgur.com/a/Fmesw

The hiding spots I found arent massive issues but the one above spawn would be very frustrating to die to. The one above 2nd is more of a personal choice if you want to keep them.

#16

kbto

3 Frags – +

.

#17

invalidnick

8 Frags – +

Thanks for the feedback!

Just updated the map with a bunch of fixes, b6-version includes:

- added clips to doors and other odd places
- tweaked cap times
- added some props
- added some detail brushwork
- added some decals
- made spawndoors open faster
- added soundscapes
- added dustmotes

Direct download:
https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/download?version=9309

Steam workshop:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=962571666

Thanks for the feedback!

Just updated the map with a bunch of fixes, b6-version includes:

- added clips to doors and other odd places
- tweaked cap times
- added some props
- added some detail brushwork
- added some decals
- made spawndoors open faster
- added soundscapes
- added dustmotes

Direct download:
https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/download?version=9309

Steam workshop:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=962571666

#18

Shears

1 Frags – +

I jumped around on b6 for a bit.

General feedback:
-I could be wrong, but this map seems longer than any map currently in the competitive rotation. There's probably a reason for comp 6s maps being generally around a certain length, but I couldn't tell you why. I speculate that it has to do with how fast respawning players can get back to an ongoing fight.

-If you want this map to make it into the competitive rotation, comparing it to cp_granary might be helpful, since I think this map is somewhat similar. A lot of people hate cp_granary for various reasons, with "too many tight choke points" being a major one, since it makes stalemates more common. For that reason, I might look into widening the entrance and/or removing the ceiling of 1 or 2 flank routes in total between last-2nd and 2nd-mid to allow for more fluid play/make sacrifice plays easier for both teams. The transition between 2nd-last seems especially chokey, since it's just the dropdown and 2 tiny doorways.

-I keep hitting my head on the ceiling arches on last and 2nd when jumping around; this might just be because I'm not used to having curved ceilings when jumping around comp tf2 maps and need to git gud. I would say keep them for now, but be sensitive to feedback.

-The cap area on the 2nd point is pretty big, bigger than most I've seen. Would need to see this in some sort of competitive play to give any judgement on whether that's good or bad though.

Edit: Made my formatting much easier to read

I jumped around on b6 for a bit.

General feedback:
-I could be wrong, but this map seems longer than any map currently in the competitive rotation. There's probably a reason for comp 6s maps being generally around a certain length, but I couldn't tell you why. I speculate that it has to do with how fast respawning players can get back to an ongoing fight.

-If you want this map to make it into the competitive rotation, comparing it to cp_granary might be helpful, since I think this map is somewhat similar. A lot of people hate cp_granary for various reasons, with "too many tight choke points" being a major one, since it makes stalemates more common. For that reason, I might look into widening the entrance and/or removing the ceiling of 1 or 2 flank routes in total between last-2nd and 2nd-mid to allow for more fluid play/make sacrifice plays easier for both teams. The transition between 2nd-last seems especially chokey, since it's just the dropdown and 2 tiny doorways.

-I keep hitting my head on the ceiling arches on last and 2nd when jumping around; this might just be because I'm not used to having curved ceilings when jumping around comp tf2 maps and need to git gud. I would say keep them for now, but be sensitive to feedback.

-The cap area on the 2nd point is pretty big, bigger than most I've seen. Would need to see this in some sort of competitive play to give any judgement on whether that's good or bad though.

Edit: Made my formatting much easier to read

#19

Twiggy

7 Frags – +

Hello invalidnick,

First of all, your work is GORGEOUS.
Second of all I've never seen a map thought this way in TF2 and it's both refreshing and interesting. I hope that the following feedback will be useful to you.

Show Content

General design issues
Ok, usually TF2 maps feature a fair share of signs and arrows to highlight ways players can go. So most of your chokepoints could use some.
Then, the size of your doorways is too small in my opinion. TF2 players cant strafe jump past choke at insane speeds like quake, and as such they need much more room to somewhat avoid spam.

http://puu.sh/wCrRD/965ff13210.jpg

This doorframe offers no wiggle room at all. You should make much bigger, like the size of the wooden platform, and then use this size everywhere else on the map. It's no fun for most players to move through tiny doors that limit the dodging they can do.

http://puu.sh/wCrWW/42abd57a73.jpg

Here for example you reduce the size of stairs by putting thick walls. I think that the thick walls aren't needed and that you should remove them to make the stairs wider. Currently i'm sure that I can fire rockets right at the middle of the stairs and splash the whole width.

http://puu.sh/wCrWW/42abd57a73.jpg

Same story here, it's too narrow.

Last

http://puu.sh/wCu2l/457953bc23.jpg

I suggest you add a way to jump up to the upper floor from the mann co crate. Why isnt this room replicated on the other side? You may as well carry this symmetrical concept to the limit :)

http://puu.sh/wCu7w/c51dd3d39f.jpg

Make this wider, blah blah blah

http://puu.sh/wCubB/fa9ecbe3e7.jpg

Potential sightline issue there (the same on the other side). It clearly helps defenders more than attackers. I suggest moving the big pillar to the right to make 2 staircases of the same width in order to narrow the sightline. Also why not keep the symmetry between pillars/staircases?

http://puu.sh/wCuiq/9985399f3f.jpg

I don't think this crate serves any purpose. It does not even block this sightline :

http://puu.sh/wCuko/9355c68e0d.jpg

You should remove it IMO.

Second

http://puu.sh/wCuko/9355c68e0d.jpg

Very big sightline. Maybe make the pillar thicker to narrow it?

incoherency : i can jump there :

http://i.imgur.com/1rvnRom.jpg

but not on there:

http://i.imgur.com/54IH63b.jpg

You should remove these wooden bits.

http://i.imgur.com/rQxQ0VS.png

Sightline issue : i can snipe attackers from there and they can barely see me. I think you can remove the wood crate. At least attackers will properly see the sniper when they peek.

http://i.imgur.com/2FQCD0g.jpg

And if you need to deal with the sightline you can always reshape this pillar to put in more on the left.

http://i.imgur.com/xidy3ow.jpg

This roof makes it hard for attackers to jump through. Can you scrap it to give the room a higher ceiling? It'll make the choke much more fluid to go through.

http://i.imgur.com/zfgMf0U.jpg

I dont see what purpose these stairs have. To me they just make spam and sticky traps more effective. I think you should keep the door height and remove the stairs to provide a fluider choke.

http://i.imgur.com/n8PEO89.jpg

Unintented hiding spot I suppose?

Mid

http://i.imgur.com/K5lSGUW.jpg

A team that wants to push this side must take a veery long trip as the wall is super thick and the stairs are all the way to the right side. Could you reshape it to make the walking distance shorter?

http://i.imgur.com/Cu3RJOY.jpg

Having no door here feels weird (and limits attackers options to rotate around in order to push). I suggest two things :
-make this a glass window -> both teams can see each other -> less frustration about uncalled players backcapping/flanking
-make some sort of doorway like you did on the lower entrance (like with a wall in the middle and 2 side ways) + add a drop down that goes there (and carve doors on the sides for example) :

http://i.imgur.com/Y9y1gkI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ss1WaFc.jpg

This is a super good defensive position for a soldier. making the whole staircase doorway wider / changing the medium healthpack to small should tone down the strength of the spot

http://i.imgur.com/KPYzmIt.jpg

From this spot as sniper I can be effective for free on all the doors. I suggest reshaping the side entrances to add some kind of line of sight blocker/move the pillars to the middle of the chokepoint. Unlike quake tf2 railgun (aka sniper) one shots people and make pushing a ***ing pain.

http://i.imgur.com/rHBYrRD.jpg

Maybe add some corridors that link this room to the left and right ways? It'd provide faster rotation which fluidifies the game.

TLDR : I like wide chokes that allow easy and fluid pushes but I also love your general idea and artwork! I wish that I can craft such things like you one day.

Hello invalidnick,

First of all, your work is GORGEOUS.
Second of all I've never seen a map thought this way in TF2 and it's both refreshing and interesting. I hope that the following feedback will be useful to you.

[spoiler]General design issues
Ok, usually TF2 maps feature a fair share of signs and arrows to highlight ways players can go. So most of your chokepoints could use some.
Then, the size of your doorways is too small in my opinion. TF2 players cant strafe jump past choke at insane speeds like quake, and as such they need much more room to somewhat avoid spam.

[img]http://puu.sh/wCrRD/965ff13210.jpg[/img]
This doorframe offers no wiggle room at all. You should make much bigger, like the size of the wooden platform, and then use this size everywhere else on the map. It's no fun for most players to move through tiny doors that limit the dodging they can do.

[img]http://puu.sh/wCrWW/42abd57a73.jpg[/img]
Here for example you reduce the size of stairs by putting thick walls. I think that the thick walls aren't needed and that you should remove them to make the stairs wider. Currently i'm sure that I can fire rockets right at the middle of the stairs and splash the whole width.

[img]http://puu.sh/wCrWW/42abd57a73.jpg[/img]
Same story here, it's too narrow.

Last
[img]http://puu.sh/wCu2l/457953bc23.jpg[/img]
I suggest you add a way to jump up to the upper floor from the mann co crate. Why isnt this room replicated on the other side? You may as well carry this symmetrical concept to the limit :)

[img]http://puu.sh/wCu7w/c51dd3d39f.jpg[/img]
Make this wider, blah blah blah

[img]http://puu.sh/wCubB/fa9ecbe3e7.jpg[/img]
Potential sightline issue there (the same on the other side). It clearly helps defenders more than attackers. I suggest moving the big pillar to the right to make 2 staircases of the same width in order to narrow the sightline. Also why not keep the symmetry between pillars/staircases?

[img]http://puu.sh/wCuiq/9985399f3f.jpg[/img]
I don't think this crate serves any purpose. It does not even block this sightline :
[img]http://puu.sh/wCuko/9355c68e0d.jpg[/img]
You should remove it IMO.

Second
[img]http://puu.sh/wCuko/9355c68e0d.jpg[/img]
Very big sightline. Maybe make the pillar thicker to narrow it?

incoherency : i can jump there :
[img]http://i.imgur.com/1rvnRom.jpg[/img]

but not on there:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/54IH63b.jpg[/img]
You should remove these wooden bits.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/rQxQ0VS.png[/img]
Sightline issue : i can snipe attackers from there and they can barely see me. I think you can remove the wood crate. At least attackers will properly see the sniper when they peek.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/2FQCD0g.jpg[/img]
And if you need to deal with the sightline you can always reshape this pillar to put in more on the left.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/xidy3ow.jpg[/img]
This roof makes it hard for attackers to jump through. Can you scrap it to give the room a higher ceiling? It'll make the choke much more fluid to go through.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/zfgMf0U.jpg[/img]
I dont see what purpose these stairs have. To me they just make spam and sticky traps more effective. I think you should keep the door height and remove the stairs to provide a fluider choke.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/n8PEO89.jpg[/img]
Unintented hiding spot I suppose?

Mid
[img]http://i.imgur.com/K5lSGUW.jpg[/img]
A team that wants to push this side must take a veery long trip as the wall is super thick and the stairs are all the way to the right side. Could you reshape it to make the walking distance shorter?

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Cu3RJOY.jpg[/img]
Having no door here feels weird (and limits attackers options to rotate around in order to push). I suggest two things :
-make this a glass window -> both teams can see each other -> less frustration about uncalled players backcapping/flanking
-make some sort of doorway like you did on the lower entrance (like with a wall in the middle and 2 side ways) + add a drop down that goes there (and carve doors on the sides for example) :
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Y9y1gkI.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Ss1WaFc.jpg[/img]
This is a super good defensive position for a soldier. making the whole staircase doorway wider / changing the medium healthpack to small should tone down the strength of the spot

[img]http://i.imgur.com/KPYzmIt.jpg[/img]
From this spot as sniper I can be effective for free on all the doors. I suggest reshaping the side entrances to add some kind of line of sight blocker/move the pillars to the middle of the chokepoint. Unlike quake tf2 railgun (aka sniper) one shots people and make pushing a ***ing pain.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/rHBYrRD.jpg[/img]
Maybe add some corridors that link this room to the left and right ways? It'd provide faster rotation which fluidifies the game.
[/spoiler]

TLDR : I like wide chokes that allow easy and fluid pushes but I also love your general idea and artwork! I wish that I can craft such things like you one day.

#20

invalidnick

1 Frags – +

ShearsI jumped around on b6 for a bit.

General feedback:
-I could be wrong, but this map seems longer than any map currently in the competitive rotation. There's probably a reason for comp 6s maps being generally around a certain length, but I couldn't tell you why. I speculate that it has to do with how fast respawning players can get back to an ongoing fight.

-If you want this map to make it into the competitive rotation, comparing it to cp_granary might be helpful, since I think this map is somewhat similar. A lot of people hate cp_granary for various reasons, with "too many tight choke points" being a major one, since it makes stalemates more common. For that reason, I might look into widening the entrance and/or removing the ceiling of 1 or 2 flank routes in total between last-2nd and 2nd-mid to allow for more fluid play/make sacrifice plays easier for both teams. The transition between 2nd-last seems especially chokey, since it's just the dropdown and 2 tiny doorways.

-I keep hitting my head on the ceiling arches on last and 2nd when jumping around; this might just be because I'm not used to having curved ceilings when jumping around comp tf2 maps and need to git gud. I would say keep them for now, but be sensitive to feedback.

-The cap area on the 2nd point is pretty big, bigger than most I've seen. Would need to see this in some sort of competitive play to give any judgement on whether that's good or bad though.

Edit: Made my formatting much easier to readTwiggyHello invalidnick,

First of all, your work is GORGEOUS.
Second of all I've never seen a map thought this way in TF2 and it's both refreshing and interesting. I hope that the following feedback will be useful to you.

Show Content

General design issues
Ok, usually TF2 maps feature a fair share of signs and arrows to highlight ways players can go. So most of your chokepoints could use some.
Then, the size of your doorways is too small in my opinion. TF2 players cant strafe jump past choke at insane speeds like quake, and as such they need much more room to somewhat avoid spam.

http://puu.sh/wCrRD/965ff13210.jpg

This doorframe offers no wiggle room at all. You should make much bigger, like the size of the wooden platform, and then use this size everywhere else on the map. It's no fun for most players to move through tiny doors that limit the dodging they can do.

http://puu.sh/wCrWW/42abd57a73.jpg

Here for example you reduce the size of stairs by putting thick walls. I think that the thick walls aren't needed and that you should remove them to make the stairs wider. Currently i'm sure that I can fire rockets right at the middle of the stairs and splash the whole width.

http://puu.sh/wCrWW/42abd57a73.jpg

Same story here, it's too narrow.

Last

http://puu.sh/wCu2l/457953bc23.jpg

I suggest you add a way to jump up to the upper floor from the mann co crate. Why isnt this room replicated on the other side? You may as well carry this symmetrical concept to the limit :)

http://puu.sh/wCu7w/c51dd3d39f.jpg

Make this wider, blah blah blah

http://puu.sh/wCubB/fa9ecbe3e7.jpg

Potential sightline issue there (the same on the other side). It clearly helps defenders more than attackers. I suggest moving the big pillar to the right to make 2 staircases of the same width in order to narrow the sightline. Also why not keep the symmetry between pillars/staircases?

http://puu.sh/wCuiq/9985399f3f.jpg

I don't think this crate serves any purpose. It does not even block this sightline :

http://puu.sh/wCuko/9355c68e0d.jpg

You should remove it IMO.

Second

http://puu.sh/wCuko/9355c68e0d.jpg

Very big sightline. Maybe make the pillar thicker to narrow it?

incoherency : i can jump there :

http://i.imgur.com/1rvnRom.jpg

but not on there:

http://i.imgur.com/54IH63b.jpg

You should remove these wooden bits.

http://i.imgur.com/rQxQ0VS.png

Sightline issue : i can snipe attackers from there and they can barely see me. I think you can remove the wood crate. At least attackers will properly see the sniper when they peek.

http://i.imgur.com/2FQCD0g.jpg

And if you need to deal with the sightline you can always reshape this pillar to put in more on the left.

http://i.imgur.com/xidy3ow.jpg

This roof makes it hard for attackers to jump through. Can you scrap it to give the room a higher ceiling? It'll make the choke much more fluid to go through.

http://i.imgur.com/zfgMf0U.jpg

I dont see what purpose these stairs have. To me they just make spam and sticky traps more effective. I think you should keep the door height and remove the stairs to provide a fluider choke.

http://i.imgur.com/n8PEO89.jpg

Unintented hiding spot I suppose?

Mid

http://i.imgur.com/K5lSGUW.jpg

A team that wants to push this side must take a veery long trip as the wall is super thick and the stairs are all the way to the right side. Could you reshape it to make the walking distance shorter?

http://i.imgur.com/Cu3RJOY.jpg

Having no door here feels weird (and limits attackers options to rotate around in order to push). I suggest two things :
-make this a glass window -> both teams can see each other -> less frustration about uncalled players backcapping/flanking
-make some sort of doorway like you did on the lower entrance (like with a wall in the middle and 2 side ways) + add a drop down that goes there (and carve doors on the sides for example) :

http://i.imgur.com/Y9y1gkI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ss1WaFc.jpg

This is a super good defensive position for a soldier. making the whole staircase doorway wider / changing the medium healthpack to small should tone down the strength of the spot

http://i.imgur.com/KPYzmIt.jpg

From this spot as sniper I can be effective for free on all the doors. I suggest reshaping the side entrances to add some kind of line of sight blocker/move the pillars to the middle of the chokepoint. Unlike quake tf2 railgun (aka sniper) one shots people and make pushing a ***ing pain.

http://i.imgur.com/rHBYrRD.jpg

Maybe add some corridors that link this room to the left and right ways? It'd provide faster rotation which fluidifies the game.

TLDR : I like wide chokes that allow easy and fluid pushes but I also love your general idea and artwork! I wish that I can craft such things like you one day.

Thanks!
This is some of the most detailed feedback I've gotten! It really helps!

[quote=Shears]I jumped around on b6 for a bit.

General feedback:
-I could be wrong, but this map seems longer than any map currently in the competitive rotation. There's probably a reason for comp 6s maps being generally around a certain length, but I couldn't tell you why. I speculate that it has to do with how fast respawning players can get back to an ongoing fight.

-If you want this map to make it into the competitive rotation, comparing it to cp_granary might be helpful, since I think this map is somewhat similar. A lot of people hate cp_granary for various reasons, with "too many tight choke points" being a major one, since it makes stalemates more common. For that reason, I might look into widening the entrance and/or removing the ceiling of 1 or 2 flank routes in total between last-2nd and 2nd-mid to allow for more fluid play/make sacrifice plays easier for both teams. The transition between 2nd-last seems especially chokey, since it's just the dropdown and 2 tiny doorways.

-I keep hitting my head on the ceiling arches on last and 2nd when jumping around; this might just be because I'm not used to having curved ceilings when jumping around comp tf2 maps and need to git gud. I would say keep them for now, but be sensitive to feedback.

-The cap area on the 2nd point is pretty big, bigger than most I've seen. Would need to see this in some sort of competitive play to give any judgement on whether that's good or bad though.

Edit: Made my formatting much easier to read[/quote]

[quote=Twiggy]Hello invalidnick,

First of all, your work is GORGEOUS.
Second of all I've never seen a map thought this way in TF2 and it's both refreshing and interesting. I hope that the following feedback will be useful to you.

[spoiler]General design issues
Ok, usually TF2 maps feature a fair share of signs and arrows to highlight ways players can go. So most of your chokepoints could use some.
Then, the size of your doorways is too small in my opinion. TF2 players cant strafe jump past choke at insane speeds like quake, and as such they need much more room to somewhat avoid spam.

[img]http://puu.sh/wCrRD/965ff13210.jpg[/img]
This doorframe offers no wiggle room at all. You should make much bigger, like the size of the wooden platform, and then use this size everywhere else on the map. It's no fun for most players to move through tiny doors that limit the dodging they can do.

[img]http://puu.sh/wCrWW/42abd57a73.jpg[/img]
Here for example you reduce the size of stairs by putting thick walls. I think that the thick walls aren't needed and that you should remove them to make the stairs wider. Currently i'm sure that I can fire rockets right at the middle of the stairs and splash the whole width.

[img]http://puu.sh/wCrWW/42abd57a73.jpg[/img]
Same story here, it's too narrow.

Last
[img]http://puu.sh/wCu2l/457953bc23.jpg[/img]
I suggest you add a way to jump up to the upper floor from the mann co crate. Why isnt this room replicated on the other side? You may as well carry this symmetrical concept to the limit :)

[img]http://puu.sh/wCu7w/c51dd3d39f.jpg[/img]
Make this wider, blah blah blah

[img]http://puu.sh/wCubB/fa9ecbe3e7.jpg[/img]
Potential sightline issue there (the same on the other side). It clearly helps defenders more than attackers. I suggest moving the big pillar to the right to make 2 staircases of the same width in order to narrow the sightline. Also why not keep the symmetry between pillars/staircases?

[img]http://puu.sh/wCuiq/9985399f3f.jpg[/img]
I don't think this crate serves any purpose. It does not even block this sightline :
[img]http://puu.sh/wCuko/9355c68e0d.jpg[/img]
You should remove it IMO.

Second
[img]http://puu.sh/wCuko/9355c68e0d.jpg[/img]
Very big sightline. Maybe make the pillar thicker to narrow it?

incoherency : i can jump there :
[img]http://i.imgur.com/1rvnRom.jpg[/img]

but not on there:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/54IH63b.jpg[/img]
You should remove these wooden bits.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/rQxQ0VS.png[/img]
Sightline issue : i can snipe attackers from there and they can barely see me. I think you can remove the wood crate. At least attackers will properly see the sniper when they peek.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/2FQCD0g.jpg[/img]
And if you need to deal with the sightline you can always reshape this pillar to put in more on the left.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/xidy3ow.jpg[/img]
This roof makes it hard for attackers to jump through. Can you scrap it to give the room a higher ceiling? It'll make the choke much more fluid to go through.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/zfgMf0U.jpg[/img]
I dont see what purpose these stairs have. To me they just make spam and sticky traps more effective. I think you should keep the door height and remove the stairs to provide a fluider choke.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/n8PEO89.jpg[/img]
Unintented hiding spot I suppose?

Mid
[img]http://i.imgur.com/K5lSGUW.jpg[/img]
A team that wants to push this side must take a veery long trip as the wall is super thick and the stairs are all the way to the right side. Could you reshape it to make the walking distance shorter?

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Cu3RJOY.jpg[/img]
Having no door here feels weird (and limits attackers options to rotate around in order to push). I suggest two things :
-make this a glass window -> both teams can see each other -> less frustration about uncalled players backcapping/flanking
-make some sort of doorway like you did on the lower entrance (like with a wall in the middle and 2 side ways) + add a drop down that goes there (and carve doors on the sides for example) :
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Y9y1gkI.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Ss1WaFc.jpg[/img]
This is a super good defensive position for a soldier. making the whole staircase doorway wider / changing the medium healthpack to small should tone down the strength of the spot

[img]http://i.imgur.com/KPYzmIt.jpg[/img]
From this spot as sniper I can be effective for free on all the doors. I suggest reshaping the side entrances to add some kind of line of sight blocker/move the pillars to the middle of the chokepoint. Unlike quake tf2 railgun (aka sniper) one shots people and make pushing a ***ing pain.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/rHBYrRD.jpg[/img]
Maybe add some corridors that link this room to the left and right ways? It'd provide faster rotation which fluidifies the game.
[/spoiler]

TLDR : I like wide chokes that allow easy and fluid pushes but I also love your general idea and artwork! I wish that I can craft such things like you one day.[/quote]

Thanks!
This is some of the most detailed feedback I've gotten! It really helps!

#21

invalidnick

7 Frags – +

I just updated this map to b7, I wanted to include as much of your feedback as possible,

This version contains:

- added a new path to mid from 2nd (above the underpass): https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551770515/0586580A06028339C83BEA4A3D23DE9005346B94/

- reworked the right side between mid and second (this was a underwhelming area, should now be more like how I envisioned it)
1. approaching it can make use of a full ramp: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551759364/238B6CE6B3129F3D0E0CF202D268D7EB1899AAEF/
2. the connecting corridor and the stair room has been merged together: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551761579/4CF146789DA42F67144260FE6C1DE1C16C16563D/
3. the door connecting the stair room and pillar room has been increased to 256 units in width, added a new wooden platform, hopefully making this entire area more fun and usable: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551763385/221E9CA3F6643B280FF4580AFA8D945912DEA46D/

- reworked the "underpass" room near last, increased the width/height of doors also:
1. turned old "crate"-jump into a ramp accessible by all classes, added small hp by locked door: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551765017/EDBFD3C681C226897CE9C5985AD82BA7AB145B1C/
2. increased the overall size of the room by removing some of the walls, also increased size of the exit to platform: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551765984/B66F1A729D815C9393CD2DB922BFDDE64F144EFE/

- increased height and width of most doors, (there are still a few 128 units doors, but most should now be at least 192 units high/wide, some are wider), here is a example: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551771949/517980388DE3643C582B3043AB2DADEA2816ADCD/

- removed the low ceiling approaching 2nd from left side: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551768811/C6E1DF60B63E82305E687806312A6874F3790861/

Additional updates:

- reworked some textures (toned down team colored walls around neutral areas)
- added some arrow signs to better highlight paths
- fixed a few unintentional sight lines
- improved clipping
- tweaked cap times (10, 6, 4 seconds)
- minor brush and prop detailing
- minor optimization at mid

On the workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=962571666
Direct download link (TF2maps) : https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/download?version=9391

Thanks again for all your feedback! It's very useful!

I just updated this map to b7, I wanted to include as much of your feedback as possible,

This version contains:

- added a new path to mid from 2nd (above the underpass): https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551770515/0586580A06028339C83BEA4A3D23DE9005346B94/

- reworked the right side between mid and second (this was a underwhelming area, should now be more like how I envisioned it)
1. approaching it can make use of a full ramp: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551759364/238B6CE6B3129F3D0E0CF202D268D7EB1899AAEF/
2. the connecting corridor and the stair room has been merged together: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551761579/4CF146789DA42F67144260FE6C1DE1C16C16563D/
3. the door connecting the stair room and pillar room has been increased to 256 units in width, added a new wooden platform, hopefully making this entire area more fun and usable: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551763385/221E9CA3F6643B280FF4580AFA8D945912DEA46D/

- reworked the "underpass" room near last, increased the width/height of doors also:
1. turned old "crate"-jump into a ramp accessible by all classes, added small hp by locked door: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551765017/EDBFD3C681C226897CE9C5985AD82BA7AB145B1C/
2. increased the overall size of the room by removing some of the walls, also increased size of the exit to platform: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551765984/B66F1A729D815C9393CD2DB922BFDDE64F144EFE/

- increased height and width of most doors, (there are still a few 128 units doors, but most should now be at least 192 units high/wide, some are wider), here is a example: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551771949/517980388DE3643C582B3043AB2DADEA2816ADCD/

- removed the low ceiling approaching 2nd from left side: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/853846465551768811/C6E1DF60B63E82305E687806312A6874F3790861/

Additional updates:

- reworked some textures (toned down team colored walls around neutral areas)
- added some arrow signs to better highlight paths
- fixed a few unintentional sight lines
- improved clipping
- tweaked cap times (10, 6, 4 seconds)
- minor brush and prop detailing
- minor optimization at mid

On the workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=962571666
Direct download link (TF2maps) : https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/download?version=9391

Thanks again for all your feedback! It's very useful!

#22

Twiggy

5 Frags – +

I love the direction your changes take.

I need to playtest it obviously, but I notice quite a big difference in cap times of mid vs second. In such a map with lots of ways to go from mid to second back caps are going to be a big issue for teams pushing 2nd to mid, and in the same time a team stuck on 2nd (say with uber disadv) won't be able to make a back cap play.

Furthermore, take a look at gullywash's cap times(which i believe are quite standard) :
Control Point 1 and 5 ×1 3 .800s
Control Point 2 and 4 ×1 16.00s
Control Point 3 ×1 19 .000s

So, assuming your 10, 6, and 4 values are for the x1 multiplier, mid and second cap way too fast (which makes back caps even worse lol).

I suggest you use gullywash values before you get good playtesting. The reason for gullywash values is because on this map it's quite common for teams to turn around each other on mid/2nd, which is something that could happen on hoto given the shape of the map and the number of connectors between mid and 2nd.

I love the direction your changes take.

I need to playtest it obviously, but I notice quite a big difference in cap times of mid vs second. In such a map with lots of ways to go from mid to second back caps are going to be a big issue for teams pushing 2nd to mid, and in the same time a team stuck on 2nd (say with uber disadv) won't be able to make a back cap play.

Furthermore, take a look at gullywash's cap times(which i believe are quite standard) :
Control Point 1 and 5 ×1 3 .800s
Control Point 2 and 4 ×1 16.00s
Control Point 3 ×1 19 .000s

So, assuming your 10, 6, and 4 values are for the x1 multiplier, mid and second cap way too fast (which makes back caps even worse lol).

I suggest you use gullywash values before you get good playtesting. The reason for gullywash values is because on this map it's quite common for teams to turn around each other on mid/2nd, which is something that could happen on hoto given the shape of the map and the number of connectors between mid and 2nd.

#23

invalidnick

2 Frags – +

TwiggyI love the direction your changes take.

I need to playtest it obviously, but I notice quite a big difference in cap times of mid vs second. In such a map with lots of ways to go from mid to second back caps are going to be a big issue for teams pushing 2nd to mid, and in the same time a team stuck on 2nd (say with uber disadv) won't be able to make a back cap play.

Furthermore, take a look at gullywash's cap times(which i believe are quite standard) :
Control Point 1 and 5 ×1 3 .800s
Control Point 2 and 4 ×1 16.00s
Control Point 3 ×1 19 .000s

So, assuming your 10, 6, and 4 values are for the x1 multiplier, mid and second cap way too fast (which makes back caps even worse lol).

I suggest you use gullywash values before you get good playtesting. The reason for gullywash values is because on this map it's quite common for teams to turn around each other on mid/2nd, which is something that could happen on hoto given the shape of the map and the number of connectors between mid and 2nd.

Thanks!

I had a look at gullywash capture times, (perhaps I'm looking at a old version of the map in the editor - cp_gullywash_final1.vmf), but it looks like the capture points-entities has the following values in the "Time to cap"-property: last (1,9 seconds), 2nd (8 seconds) and middle (9,5 seconds) ...not not exactly sure how that correlates to the multiplier,

When I compared the time to cap in game I got the following results: mid captures (a smidgen) faster on gullywash, 2nd captures (slightly) slower on gullywash, last captures (significantly) faster on gullywash,

Side by side comparison between gullywash/hoto_b7 is: (1,8/4) (8/6) (9,5/10)

Like you are saying, mid and 2nd might need to have less difference in cap time to make it easier to back cap mid when defending 2nd, would be great to get some proper testing! --- note the "low" cap time on 2nd was decided on after watching defending team struggling to retake it, that might no long be the case, and/or needs more testing :)

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep my ears and eyes open for this when playtesting!

[quote=Twiggy]I love the direction your changes take.

I need to playtest it obviously, but I notice quite a big difference in cap times of mid vs second. In such a map with lots of ways to go from mid to second back caps are going to be a big issue for teams pushing 2nd to mid, and in the same time a team stuck on 2nd (say with uber disadv) won't be able to make a back cap play.

Furthermore, take a look at gullywash's cap times(which i believe are quite standard) :
Control Point 1 and 5 ×1 3 .800s
Control Point 2 and 4 ×1 16.00s
Control Point 3 ×1 19 .000s

So, assuming your 10, 6, and 4 values are for the x1 multiplier, mid and second cap way too fast (which makes back caps even worse lol).

I suggest you use gullywash values before you get good playtesting. The reason for gullywash values is because on this map it's quite common for teams to turn around each other on mid/2nd, which is something that could happen on hoto given the shape of the map and the number of connectors between mid and 2nd.[/quote]

Thanks!

I had a look at gullywash capture times, (perhaps I'm looking at a old version of the map in the editor - cp_gullywash_final1.vmf), but it looks like the capture points-entities has the following values in the "Time to cap"-property: last (1,9 seconds), 2nd (8 seconds) and middle (9,5 seconds) ...not not exactly sure how that correlates to the multiplier,

When I compared the time to cap in game I got the following results: mid captures (a smidgen) faster on gullywash, 2nd captures (slightly) slower on gullywash, last captures (significantly) faster on gullywash,

Side by side comparison between gullywash/hoto_b7 is: (1,8/4) (8/6) (9,5/10)

Like you are saying, mid and 2nd might need to have less difference in cap time to make it easier to back cap mid when defending 2nd, would be great to get some proper testing! --- note the "low" cap time on 2nd was decided on after watching defending team struggling to retake it, that might no long be the case, and/or needs more testing :)

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep my ears and eyes open for this when playtesting!

#24

loserline49

8 Frags – +

if there was any map I wanted to see succeed, it would have to be this one

#25

mehhie

3 Frags – +

This map looks so cool because of the great art style and feel, great job.

#26

Twiggy

2 Frags – +

invalidnicknote the "low" cap time on 2nd was decided on after watching defending team struggling to retake it

This can be due to several things :
-capture time too long (as you have said)
-spawn times of defenders too long compared to spawn times of attackers
-attackers forward spawn(on mid) too close to 2nd (this was a big issue on snakewater that prompted the forward spawn to be moved back from kitchen to sawroom entrance)
-poor play of the defenders : unless you have lots (like more than 5 games) of feedback from actual high quality games (say pugchamp level) what you've seen can just be due to bad gameplay :D

So you'll have multiple levers to address this problem.

Also, your doors feel so much better now woo;

And it looks very interesting that forward spawn doors open from the outside when you control the associated point!

[quote=invalidnick]note the "low" cap time on 2nd was decided on after watching defending team struggling to retake it[/quote]

This can be due to several things :
-capture time too long (as you have said)
-spawn times of defenders too long compared to spawn times of attackers
-attackers forward spawn(on mid) too close to 2nd (this was a big issue on snakewater that prompted the forward spawn to be moved back from kitchen to sawroom entrance)
-poor play of the defenders : unless you have lots (like more than 5 games) of feedback from actual high quality games (say pugchamp level) what you've seen can just be due to bad gameplay :D

So you'll have multiple levers to address this problem.

Also, your doors feel so much better now woo;

And it looks very interesting that forward spawn doors open from the outside when you control the associated point!

#27

XBS

1 Frags – +

This map is pretty dope I gotta say. I think it'll make its way into some servers or rotations.

#28

sage

1 Frags – +

Please put the TF2Maps download link in the original post, and also the latest map version name so people can quickly see what the latest version is without having to scroll through the thread

can sum1 upload b7 to serveme btw?

Please put the [url=https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/]TF2Maps download link[/url] in the original post, and also the latest map version name so people can quickly see what the latest version is without having to scroll through the thread

can sum1 upload b7 to serveme btw?

#29

Twiggy

2 Frags – +

sagePlease put the TF2Maps download link in the original post, and also the latest map version name so people can quickly see what the latest version is without having to scroll through the thread

can sum1 upload b7 to serveme btw?

It's done already. Thank you Arie if that's you <3

[quote=sage]Please put the [url=https://tf2maps.net/downloads/heart-of-the-oak.3270/]TF2Maps download link[/url] in the original post, and also the latest map version name so people can quickly see what the latest version is without having to scroll through the thread

can sum1 upload b7 to serveme btw?[/quote]

It's done already. Thank you Arie if that's you <3

#30

SassyTheSasquatch

2 Frags – +

I really like this map, like I would have to play test it to be able to give more useful feedback. I really love the artstyle and the map is really unique and unlike any other. I think its good that someone is finally trying the use of water and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think it will be any interesting map for soliders and demos as there are a lot of stairs/ramps, ive already found a few interesting jumps that I can pull off and im not that good at jumper personally so im sure there are greater ones but here is one with a question/feedback:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9aDN0coUk&feature=youtu.be

its bad qaulity cause my net is shit and didnt wanna wait forever

I know its probably not that useful for the map but its all I can do for now until I can get to playtest it!

I really like this map, like I would have to play test it to be able to give more useful feedback. I really love the artstyle and the map is really unique and unlike any other. I think its good that someone is finally trying the use of water and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think it will be any interesting map for soliders and demos as there are a lot of stairs/ramps, ive already found a few interesting jumps that I can pull off and im not that good at jumper personally so im sure there are greater ones but here is one with a question/feedback:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9aDN0coUk&feature=youtu.be

its bad qaulity cause my net is shit and didnt wanna wait forever

I know its probably not that useful for the map but its all I can do for now until I can get to playtest it!