A lot of the competitive community is not very receptive to ANY map changes. I don't count myself among them but never-the-less it is a good majority.

I had a 3cp idea long ago, but as a map maker struggled to find a design I thought would stick. I gave up really. I'd invite any ideas to an concept. I'd be interested in making it a reality if it had potential.

While I do get bored watching tf2 granary yard for the millionth time. I think it has a bit to do with how it is approached. I hate to criticize you sal, as I don't really have any base upon which to do so. The only advice I can really give is to look at established casters in all sports and try to bring that to tf2. I do enjoy TotalBiscuit style of casting even if I don't always agree with some of his provocative stances. He has in the past given solid advice to other casters.

Each game must have something at stake and hype to bring views. I would say (for comparison) football games go for at least an hour and don't suffer viewership due to length. The games have plenty of lead up to the contest and this allows the hype to build. Overloading content of average quality won't bring larger viewership imho.

Not to be rude, but if you guys are trying to remove every single 5cp and replace them with 3cp you are asking the impossible.

1) There is one 3cp map (cp_oilfield). Exactly ONE map. In the years that TF2 has been out, only ONE MAP! If you are looking to replace all of the existing 5cp maps with 3cp maps, you aren't really starting on the right foot.

2) No one plays oilfield. I mean, no one. I remember some random pug that happened 3 or so years ago where we tried to play it and it basically turned into cap middle win round. Yes, you could argue that the spawn timers / cap times could be adjusted, etc etc, but the point remains: NO ONE PLAYS THE ONE MAP! If no one plays the one existent map in the format that you want, how are you going to convince people to put it in rotation, let alone replace an entire seasons worth of maps with 3cp maps?

3) Have you guys even thought about trying to change the rotation or line up of maps? Like, seriously thought about it? Imagine telling people no badlands, no granary, no viaduct. Imagine telling them that instead of playing a format they know, with maps they are familiar with, with a time limit they are adjusted to, they are going to be playing a completely untested format, with 8+ maps that have just been created (and that no one has ever played), on a completely different time limit / round limit. If people rage over A SINGLE map in rotation, one that fits the EXACT SAME control point mechanics they've been playing for years, and that has a very similar layout to maps they've already played, I CAN'T IMAGINE THE BACKLASH AND INSANITY THAT A CHANGE LIKE THIS WOULD BRING! HOLY SHIT, PREPARE YOURSELF FOR SOME INTERNET RAPE!!!! PEOPLE POOPED ALL OVER MY HOUSE WHEN I MADE STANDIN, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

4) There are three mappers interested in competitive play. THREE! Out of all the people making maps currently, you guys have three. Now you want to tell those three mappers, they have to start over and make 3cp maps instead of what ever else they were working on? And that whatever maps they happened to get into rotation, by maintaining an exquisite balance between gameplay and aesthetics are worthless and have to be rejected? HOLY FUCK BALLS! I mean, I could imagine this from EA or some other top down, aggressively managed corporation that has some sort of ridiculous hierarchy system with Bobby Kotick (i.e. the devil) at the top, but from the hobbyish amateur "we play this game because its fun" group?

5) Making maps takes a really long time. I mean, I've gotten very proficient at it, I can hammer out an alpha map in three days to a week, but actually getting players together to playtest and refine the map takes much much longer, not to mention the detail work, visual refinements, and optimization. Now you tell me you need a map pool (8 maps or so) of completely new maps, new format, untested layout, and you need all the mappers to get behind it? WOW! I mean, it just seems like the demands you are putting on a (VERY SMALL) group of VOLUNTEER and HOBBYIST mappers is completely unreasonable.

6) As for the complaints directed at casting: DOTA games can take anywhere from ten minutes to one hour and thirty, with the average game running exactly an hour. If you've been paying attention, DOTA streams and vids have been going fucking crazy. The international with something like five hundred THOUSAND viewers? The problem is not the length or unpredictability of the matches, if anything it has a lot more to do with the first person view of the game itself.

THERE IS A POST LIMIT WHAT THE FUCK? Continued below

I'm trying really hard to keep my cool here, and I know I've written things up in a way thats pretty vitriolic and ranty. I apologize for that. However, I do think its important for you guys to take a very hard look at what you are attempting to solve with this map change, as well as what the consequences of such a change would be.

To summarize, I think you have SEVERELY underestimated the amount of work, time, energy, and organization it would require to push out an all new game mode that fundamentally alters the way comp is played. You have ZERO reliable examples of this gamemode working, even in a pug or public space, yet you seem to want to get everyone behind it, regardless of whether or not it works. The work involved in this alteration falls on the mappers, of which there are exactly three. But, most importantly of all, I don't think you've realistically thought through the implications of this change with regards to player perception. IF PEOPLE CAN'T EVEN MAKE NORMAL MAPS, IN GAMEMODES THAT ARE CURRENTLY PLAYED IN COMP WITHOUT BEING CALLED A SHITHEAD, I CAN'T IMAGINE THEM WANTING TO PLAY A COMPLETELY UNTRIED GAME MODE TO SOLVE A PROBLEM THAT ISN'T EVEN AN ISSUE WITH MAPS!

Okay, rant over. Obviously, I'm all for people wanting to make changes and alterations to existing maps. If someone makes a 3cp I'd gladly test it in the New Map Weekends, but to throw every single map under the bus to solve a problem that has more to do with the first person nature of the game, than with the map layout seems incredibly problematic.

LOVE AND HUGS AND KISSES AND KITTENS IN BASKETS

Scorpio

Also: Oilfield http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=688

If we played on 3CP maps, then every match would become mid fight -> cap last. It would take away the push/hold mechanic that is literally the best thing ever to happen to TF2.

You could make an argument that 3CP maps could have faster respawns for the defending team, but even so, that might not fix the issues with that type of map. And TF2 would become a DM fest or team midfight 2

Rather that mess with the existing 5CP maps...if you want a faster style fix the CTF gamemode as I described in the other thread here:
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/678-why-does-ctf-suck/2

Basically it adopts an OvD format and promotes a lot more risk taking for the offensive team. IMO it would create a lot more action, fun for both player and spectator. Now that I think about it quickfix might be a more viable option for the attacking team...that would be interesting in itself!

From my point of view as a hardcore spectator this is what happens in errygame:

1. Round Starts: Awesome, get hype, watch and learn how to do rollouts.
2. Teams get to mid: Fucking awesome, I can barely understand wtf is going on but I know there's a lot of shit going on so I keep checking the hud to see the players health and deaths. Then one of this things might happen.
-- Full wipe: Cool, this team is so good. Go to 4.
-- Almost full wipe: Omg, what's gonna happen? is anyone going to chase that guy? did the medic survive? how long to get respawns? watch out for the guy that survived, he might take your medic!. Go to 3.
-- Only 1 or 2 of each team survived: This are the most fun mid fights results to watch because now you can tell what is going on since you only have to pay attention to at most 2 players and it's all about the players decisions, are they going to contest? are they going to back up? maybe set up a trap?. Go to 3.
3. Caping 4th: Depending on how the midfight went we might see some contest of the 4th point, but as far as I've seen, NA teams don't bother much defending it so it's not usually a fun part of the round to match. Nevertheless, if there is contesting of this point (or back and forth between this and mid point) it will most likely be subject to what I'll cover in 4.
4. Caping last: FUCK MEDIC BUILD THAT UBER ALREADY. The preparation of the teams to push in or out of last takes forever. Most teams stay stalemate until they get a random pick or until both have their ubers up, this slows down the game very much and makes me want to kill myself as a spectator.

I know this is a necesary strategic thing to do, but it is the thing that you don't want to see in a game, in any game.

I dont think that reducing the number of capture points would help, because the stalemate would prevail, in the last points. I think that we need to find a way to keep a match being strategic but not letting the teams take forever to do a move. Cut the medic and making it 5v5? (I'd say no), ban the medigun?, force the teams somehow to move out of a point after a certain time?.

I like the idea Sal btw, hope it happens.

3cp has been tried with standin and it was dumb. Backcaps would be absolutely devastating and it would promote gunboating paintrainers trying to backcap. If the point takes forever to cap...why not just introduce more koth maps into the rotation? Koth is an exciting game mode, and koth_ashville is infinitely more fun/interesting than cp_ashville. Why can we only have one koth map? It adds variety, has shorter games, a lot of constant action. There's no need to break 5cp map that are the staple of tf2, simply introduce more fun maps over time without being limited in scope of playstyle. Over time, the maps will weed themselves out like they have been.

I think two 20 minute halves instead of two 30 minute halves would encourage more pushes as soon as you get uber rather than trying to suicide to force the other team and kind of speed up the pace. However, as we saw in europe, time based games come down to who can play more passively and force the other person to make the mistake rather than going in and taking your win by force.

Star held a koth contest recently that got very little publicity after people put a good bit of time into some of those maps. The community talks but just doesn't want to do the work of testing new maps objectively.

Here is mine for a shameless plug.
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=19822
it's JUST beta so don't freak out ppl.

We shouldn't be demanding so much from mappers. They already make us maps that tons of people publicly call shit. I'm surprised they still stick around.

Testing maps is a subjective process. It can never be objective, nor should it. There is always an inherent bias against new maps (generally speaking, people are confused by a map and will dislike these confusions.) It's all on the mapper, as the people will only play the map so many times before never wanting to play it again, improved or not.

My two cents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCmDnh9CyRw&feature=youtu.be
and yes, I know it's TL:DR

am I the only one that thinks we're like at least 75% if not more towards the perfect esea map pool?

other than the 8th spot (currently occupied by cp_assvile_butts6), and arguably gpit for some people (but I love it), the rotation is completely fine as is

STATUS_QUO

I'd love to see a good plr 6's map. No idea how you'd balance it without making it shit, but it would be so fun and hard to play with coordination. It would have to be an amazing map with well practiced teams for it not to turn into dm_hightower though.

Consider this... if a map is 3cp, one of the teams will be holding last 100% of the time. While on average rounds might go down faster, when you actually consider game speed and excitement last holds are certainly the most boring thing in the game. Heavies will get run constantly. Not exactly promoting faster play.

I think we need more maps like gpit, quality and all

Pretty sure it can be both, and objectivity results in the mapper being able to pinpoint problems quickly. Both have merit, but subjectivity can fall quickly into "I just don't like this area, it make me mad because I died here once."

If I was making a pub map I would be well open to subjective criticism. ex. "This area of the map makes me confused." Whereas, if it were objective criticism you'd see better results and move past petty stuff like learning the layout and into more desired criticism. ex. "the sniper class has a sight line he can exploit fully here." I know that sounds posh, but I exaggerate for clarity.

...and now we're well off topic.

Payload seems like it'd be easier to implement for shorter games (although probably far more unlikely). Possibly 2-4 points, while the cart takes ~50 seconds to get between each point at max push rate, allowing for an uber to build and a defence to be held. Also introduces the stopwatch element, and possibly dynamically changing maps etc. Just an idea.

I never saw game length as an issue? it's especially important for good matchups.

Hey sal, rather than having 3-cp, why not just lower the number of rounds necessary to win? We could try best 4 out of 7, as 3 out of 5 seems too short and 5 out of 9 is apparently too long.

3 cp maps would be whoever wins mid pretty much wins

ok no wait
4cp

I feel like you miss alot of action as a streamer, like med pics and sniper shots, isnt there anyway of having some kind of insta replay? I feel that it would make watching streams much more enjoyable.

I want to see a cp_ashville graph :P

3cp would not work or be any different than a push on last point of 5cp.
to make games faster/less stalemate requires amazing choke points/transitions from point to point. however if you add more routes to and from choke points the gameplay is too spread out and results in poor design and players complain. so... what needs to be done is choke points created that have both an open yet closed feel which is near impossible.

the competitive community is very resistant to change and absolutely hates playing/learning new maps (as a whole). its also hard to get GOOD feedback from players most of the time "this part sucks" or "its ok but w/e".

back to the original topic which is more how can 6s be more exciting to watch than it is about 3cp. how about a new hybrid type gametype. KOTH + assault CTF. so the map will look like a 3cp... middle point being KOTH when KOTH is capped and held for say 1 minute a CTF flag is spawned and the team that owns the hill has to take the flag into the enemies base and onto their last point = 1 round win. if other team even touches the flag then it respawns at mid and the defending team can try to retake the KOTH and get a flag of their own. thoughts?

i dont think any sort of payload gametype will work because the cart is boring to push and watch. 6s gameplay especially at high levels is much too fast for that. KOTH is very fun to watch as its mostly fragging.

Sure, some games are just boring stalemates but reducing 2 points would probably hurt more than help overall. If you have high paced action in top level competitive TF2 I don't think it'll matter because the action is bound to pick up (UNLESS HEAVY). Also, removing some of the fourth points would take away some of the neatest arenas in the game - Badlands spire, Gullywash minispire, etc.

Why bother with 3CP when KOTH exists. No point in sacrificing the quality of the gameplay for alleged marketability at this point.

maybe we should try 5v5?

Ban the Uber

:P

you arent going to get more viewers playing maps that are even more out of touch with the average tf2 player's playing habits than competitive 6v6 already is.

remade versions of popular maps would be a good change. testing top players on maps the average player can actually relate to(pl, more attack/defend) seems like a better way to captivate their interest than playing badlands and granary.

you could for example separate maps like dustbowl1/goldrush1. most agree they're fun to play casually, seem appropriately sized for 6v6, and would play out fast with current stopwatch rules if you take out the 2nd and 3rd levels.