SnackIf TF2 means enjoying yourself then I would suggest boycotting any leagues running whitelists/rulesets you find unfun. All it takes to make a small league between yourselves is a challonge account and a google spreadsheet.
Global whitelist
December Global Whitelist Changes
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
[quote=Snack]If TF2 means enjoying yourself then I would suggest boycotting any leagues running whitelists/rulesets you find unfun. All it takes to make a small league between yourselves is a challonge account and a google spreadsheet.[/quote]
Global whitelist
Global whitelist
syph4812622If a pyro who has been building phlog charge for free with scortch shot or detonator hides behind a corner and kills a few people with 0 skill required that is pretty shitty and should never happen. Even if overall the phlogistinator is an underpowered weapon it can be very strong if you get lucky. That doesn't make the players who died bad, it makes the weapon shitty for competitive.syphDepending on the unlock it might make the game just a little bit shittier.
For example the phlogistinator is underpowered but if you happen to get kills with its crits, it's going to be complete bs to die to.
Would you feel better if you were killed by the far superior stock Flamethrower?
If a team is so much better than you that they can kill you with joke weapons and not be punished, then they could kill you just as hard running stuff that is unbannable, like permaHeavy/Sniper/Pyro, or Shotgun-only Soldier, or Crossbow-only Medic, or Pistol-only Scout, or anything. What's ultimately annoying is that you're losing and being disrespected, but banning underpowered weapons won't change the fact that there are teams out there who are better than you and want to BM. You'll still be just as upset.
If you walk around a corner into a phlog Pyro after he spent ten years farming 221 damage with Detonator, that's not the Pyro getting lucky, that's you making a huge mistake despite very ample warning. There was no luck involved. You just fucked up.
Building Phlog with Detonator is not free, it takes a very long time and you're stuck on a shitty loadout on a shitty class until you get Phlog. There's no way for you to contest Soldiers or Demos who can juggle you into infinity, and there's no way to kill anything that has a working S key. In addition it gets hard countered by Heavy, especially Natascha, as well as Engineer and even Manmelter Pyro.
There is a large opportunity cost to playing Pyro instead of Scout or Soldier. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro to crack a stalemate instead of Battalion's Backup Soldier, or Engineer, or Heavy, or Sniper. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro instead of regular Pyro. If that Phlog Pyro correctly analyzed that your team would most likely not be able to counter a joke weapon on a joke class without the element of surprise, and has the balls to actually try it, that is skill.
[quote=syph][quote=4812622][quote=syph]
Depending on the unlock it might make the game just a little bit shittier.
For example the phlogistinator is underpowered but if you happen to get kills with its crits, it's going to be complete bs to die to.[/quote]
Would you feel better if you were killed by the far superior stock Flamethrower?
If a team is so much better than you that they can kill you with joke weapons and not be punished, then they could kill you just as hard running stuff that is unbannable, like permaHeavy/Sniper/Pyro, or Shotgun-only Soldier, or Crossbow-only Medic, or Pistol-only Scout, or [i]anything[/i]. What's ultimately annoying is that you're losing and being disrespected, but banning underpowered weapons won't change the fact that there are teams out there who are better than you and want to BM. You'll still be just as upset.[/quote]
If a pyro who has been building phlog charge for free with scortch shot or detonator hides behind a corner and kills a few people with 0 skill required that is pretty shitty and should never happen. Even if overall the phlogistinator is an underpowered weapon it can be very strong if you get lucky. That doesn't make the players who died bad, it makes the weapon shitty for competitive.[/quote]
If you walk around a corner into a phlog Pyro after he spent ten years farming 221 damage with Detonator, that's not the Pyro getting lucky, that's you making a huge mistake despite very ample warning. There was no luck involved. You just fucked up.
Building Phlog with Detonator is not free, it takes a very long time and you're stuck on a shitty loadout on a shitty class until you get Phlog. There's no way for you to contest Soldiers or Demos who can juggle you into infinity, and there's no way to kill anything that has a working S key. In addition it gets hard countered by Heavy, especially Natascha, as well as Engineer and even Manmelter Pyro.
There is a large opportunity cost to playing Pyro instead of Scout or Soldier. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro to crack a stalemate instead of Battalion's Backup Soldier, or Engineer, or Heavy, or Sniper. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro instead of regular Pyro. If that Phlog Pyro correctly analyzed that your team would most likely not be able to counter a joke weapon on a joke class without the element of surprise, and has the balls to actually try it, that is skill.
Depending on the unlock it might make the game just a little bit shittier.
For example the phlogistinator is underpowered but if you happen to get kills with its crits, it's going to be complete bs to die to.[/quote]
Would you feel better if you were killed by the far superior stock Flamethrower?
If a team is so much better than you that they can kill you with joke weapons and not be punished, then they could kill you just as hard running stuff that is unbannable, like permaHeavy/Sniper/Pyro, or Shotgun-only Soldier, or Crossbow-only Medic, or Pistol-only Scout, or [i]anything[/i]. What's ultimately annoying is that you're losing and being disrespected, but banning underpowered weapons won't change the fact that there are teams out there who are better than you and want to BM. You'll still be just as upset.[/quote]
If a pyro who has been building phlog charge for free with scortch shot or detonator hides behind a corner and kills a few people with 0 skill required that is pretty shitty and should never happen. Even if overall the phlogistinator is an underpowered weapon it can be very strong if you get lucky. That doesn't make the players who died bad, it makes the weapon shitty for competitive.[/quote]
If you walk around a corner into a phlog Pyro after he spent ten years farming 221 damage with Detonator, that's not the Pyro getting lucky, that's you making a huge mistake despite very ample warning. There was no luck involved. You just fucked up.
Building Phlog with Detonator is not free, it takes a very long time and you're stuck on a shitty loadout on a shitty class until you get Phlog. There's no way for you to contest Soldiers or Demos who can juggle you into infinity, and there's no way to kill anything that has a working S key. In addition it gets hard countered by Heavy, especially Natascha, as well as Engineer and even Manmelter Pyro.
There is a large opportunity cost to playing Pyro instead of Scout or Soldier. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro to crack a stalemate instead of Battalion's Backup Soldier, or Engineer, or Heavy, or Sniper. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro instead of regular Pyro. If that Phlog Pyro correctly analyzed that your team would most likely not be able to counter a joke weapon on a joke class without the element of surprise, and has the balls to actually try it, that is skill.
Hello,
I, as an interested player, have no readable records of the discussions that lead to these decisions.
This bothers me because I can’t get to know what conflicts arose and who contributed to these discussions, knowing this will help me form a more informed opinion, hopefully convincing me that the decision was the right one. Beyond convincing me, it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.
The gap between the two main philosophies about whitelists is growing too big to be ignored anymore, I’m very uncomfortable seeing people paint the “opposition” as harmful, especially when they're important figures. You're absolutely playing with fire, people will move on.
We all love 6v6 and want it to grow bigger, be taken more seriously, especially by VALVe, it’s irrational to start attacking someone because they aren’t willing to sell out the integrity of the gamemode for hypothetical dev attention.
What bothers me beyond this is that there are better ways to help the gamemode, such as listing bugs that affect the competitive scene, deciding for a global ruleset (even if it's changed soon), and more.
A rigorous and serious effort needs to be made if you want any change to have an undivided following from our players.
My ideal scenario would have a forum (not randomly timed voice meetings, not instant messaging garbage) where people would argue for and against changes. It would contain selected, willing people (as long as everyone in prem/invite is contacted and invited) and be moderated heavily. It would be entirely readable by anyone. It would have clearly defined goals, agreed upon by everyone (there's no point in trying to create a whitelist without a definition of what this whitelist should do).
Thanks for reading and apologies for any confused/confusing sentences.
Hello,
I, as an interested player, have no readable records of the discussions that lead to these decisions.
This bothers me because I can’t get to know what conflicts arose and who contributed to these discussions, knowing this will help me form a more informed opinion, hopefully convincing me that the decision was the right one. Beyond convincing me, it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.
The gap between the two main philosophies about whitelists is growing too big to be ignored anymore, I’m very uncomfortable seeing people paint the “opposition” as harmful, especially when they're important figures. You're absolutely playing with fire, people [b]will[/b] move on.
We all love 6v6 and want it to grow bigger, be taken more seriously, especially by VALVe, it’s irrational to start attacking someone because they aren’t willing to sell out the integrity of the gamemode for hypothetical dev attention.
What bothers me beyond this is that there are better ways to help the gamemode, such as [url=https://github.com/ldesgoui/comp_6v6_bugs/issues/1]listing bugs that affect the competitive scene[/url], deciding for a global ruleset (even if it's changed soon), and more.
A rigorous and serious effort needs to be made if you want any change to have an undivided following from our players.
My ideal scenario would have a forum (not randomly timed voice meetings, not instant messaging garbage) where people would argue for and against changes. It would contain selected, willing people (as long as everyone in prem/invite is contacted and invited) and be moderated heavily. It would be entirely readable by anyone. It would have clearly defined goals, agreed upon by everyone (there's no point in trying to create a whitelist without a definition of what this whitelist should do).
Thanks for reading and apologies for any confused/confusing sentences.
I, as an interested player, have no readable records of the discussions that lead to these decisions.
This bothers me because I can’t get to know what conflicts arose and who contributed to these discussions, knowing this will help me form a more informed opinion, hopefully convincing me that the decision was the right one. Beyond convincing me, it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.
The gap between the two main philosophies about whitelists is growing too big to be ignored anymore, I’m very uncomfortable seeing people paint the “opposition” as harmful, especially when they're important figures. You're absolutely playing with fire, people [b]will[/b] move on.
We all love 6v6 and want it to grow bigger, be taken more seriously, especially by VALVe, it’s irrational to start attacking someone because they aren’t willing to sell out the integrity of the gamemode for hypothetical dev attention.
What bothers me beyond this is that there are better ways to help the gamemode, such as [url=https://github.com/ldesgoui/comp_6v6_bugs/issues/1]listing bugs that affect the competitive scene[/url], deciding for a global ruleset (even if it's changed soon), and more.
A rigorous and serious effort needs to be made if you want any change to have an undivided following from our players.
My ideal scenario would have a forum (not randomly timed voice meetings, not instant messaging garbage) where people would argue for and against changes. It would contain selected, willing people (as long as everyone in prem/invite is contacted and invited) and be moderated heavily. It would be entirely readable by anyone. It would have clearly defined goals, agreed upon by everyone (there's no point in trying to create a whitelist without a definition of what this whitelist should do).
Thanks for reading and apologies for any confused/confusing sentences.
4812622If you walk around a corner into a phlog Pyro after he spent ten years farming 221 damage with Detonator, that's not the Pyro getting lucky, that's you making a huge mistake despite very ample warning. There was no luck involved. You just fucked up.
Building Phlog with Detonator is not free, it takes a very long time and you're stuck on a shitty loadout on a shitty class until you get Phlog. There's no way for you to contest Soldiers or Demos who can juggle you into infinity, and there's no way to kill anything that has a working S key. In addition it gets hard countered by Heavy, especially Natascha, as well as Engineer and even Manmelter Pyro.
There is a large opportunity cost to playing Pyro instead of Scout or Soldier. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro to crack a stalemate instead of Battalion's Backup Soldier, or Engineer, or Heavy, or Sniper. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro instead of regular Pyro. If that Phlog Pyro correctly analyzed that your team would most likely not be able to counter a joke weapon on a joke class without the element of surprise, and has the balls to actually try it, that is skill.
I said the weapon is underpowered overall no need to repeat that in your response. But the few kills that he might get are not deserved. And no, walking past a corner only to have a crit pyro in your face is not a misplay, you can't possibly stay away from all corners just because an idiot who plays phlog was spamming with the detonator.
[quote=4812622]If you walk around a corner into a phlog Pyro after he spent ten years farming 221 damage with Detonator, that's not the Pyro getting lucky, that's you making a huge mistake despite very ample warning. There was no luck involved. You just fucked up.
Building Phlog with Detonator is not free, it takes a very long time and you're stuck on a shitty loadout on a shitty class until you get Phlog. There's no way for you to contest Soldiers or Demos who can juggle you into infinity, and there's no way to kill anything that has a working S key. In addition it gets hard countered by Heavy, especially Natascha, as well as Engineer and even Manmelter Pyro.
There is a large opportunity cost to playing Pyro instead of Scout or Soldier. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro to crack a stalemate instead of Battalion's Backup Soldier, or Engineer, or Heavy, or Sniper. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro instead of regular Pyro. If that Phlog Pyro correctly analyzed that your team would most likely not be able to counter a joke weapon on a joke class without the element of surprise, and has the balls to actually try it, that is skill.[/quote]
I said the weapon is underpowered overall no need to repeat that in your response. But the few kills that he might get are not deserved. And no, walking past a corner only to have a crit pyro in your face is not a misplay, you can't possibly stay away from all corners just because an idiot who plays phlog was spamming with the detonator.
Building Phlog with Detonator is not free, it takes a very long time and you're stuck on a shitty loadout on a shitty class until you get Phlog. There's no way for you to contest Soldiers or Demos who can juggle you into infinity, and there's no way to kill anything that has a working S key. In addition it gets hard countered by Heavy, especially Natascha, as well as Engineer and even Manmelter Pyro.
There is a large opportunity cost to playing Pyro instead of Scout or Soldier. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro to crack a stalemate instead of Battalion's Backup Soldier, or Engineer, or Heavy, or Sniper. There is a large opportunity cost to playing Phlog Pyro instead of regular Pyro. If that Phlog Pyro correctly analyzed that your team would most likely not be able to counter a joke weapon on a joke class without the element of surprise, and has the balls to actually try it, that is skill.[/quote]
I said the weapon is underpowered overall no need to repeat that in your response. But the few kills that he might get are not deserved. And no, walking past a corner only to have a crit pyro in your face is not a misplay, you can't possibly stay away from all corners just because an idiot who plays phlog was spamming with the detonator.
TwiiKuu...it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.
If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.
[quote=TwiiKuu]...it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.[/quote]
If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.
If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.
GentlemanJonTwiiKuu...it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.
As TwiiKuu said, this sort of votes can't be take really seriously because it's a popular vote, but the idea is interesting.
Only people that has a big understanding of the game and unbiased, mature and those stuffs, should be able to vote, just as it has been said before, gather top players from every region, elected by top players ( Just to pick up players that make strategies, and not people that are just following calls), and make this happen
[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=TwiiKuu]...it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.[/quote]
If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.[/quote]
As TwiiKuu said, this sort of votes can't be take really seriously because it's a popular vote, but the idea is interesting.
Only people that has a big understanding of the game and unbiased, mature and those stuffs, should be able to vote, just as it has been said before, gather top players from every region, elected by top players ( Just to pick up players that make strategies, and not people that are just following calls), and make this happen
If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.[/quote]
As TwiiKuu said, this sort of votes can't be take really seriously because it's a popular vote, but the idea is interesting.
Only people that has a big understanding of the game and unbiased, mature and those stuffs, should be able to vote, just as it has been said before, gather top players from every region, elected by top players ( Just to pick up players that make strategies, and not people that are just following calls), and make this happen
GentlemanJonTwiiKuu...it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.
i just voted, i think this is a good idea
[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=TwiiKuu]...it will give VALVe actual knowledge to sift through.[/quote]
If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.[/quote]
i just voted, i think this is a good idea
If everyone just went here https://www.lootvote.com/game/all/tf2/comp-weapons and voted I'd be able to get the confidence scores down far enough to give Valve a ton of completely objective empirical feedback, although "not something people care enough about to vote" is also information of a sort.[/quote]
i just voted, i think this is a good idea
TwiiKuu hits the nail on the head. The divide between players with vocal opinions and those who are making decisions for everyone seemingly without any viewable discussion is alarming. It's clear that there is a gap between those who believe that global whitelists will create a more positive relation between the community, new players and Valve, and those who feel they're making the game cluttered and less fun for already active participants, incentivizing them to move on.
As a result key members in the community who are involved in this decision making process are being painted negatively for their seemingly unopposed philosophy on the game, which everyone else hasn't really had a say in. I don't like hearing anyone saying b4nny or Slin are stupid for their views on the game, but it's inevitable when it looks like the vocal community is in disagreement with their decisions.
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On a personal note, it's my opinion that the games white-list should be more geared towards already active participants and creating the most fun possible. This is what enriches the game. I see little purpose in allowing weapons which are clearly viewed negatively by the majority. It does nothing to entice new players to play, and it serves only to make old players not wish to play against cancerous conditions.
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That's just my 2 cents. If we could actively see top players have this kind of discussion in an easily viewable thread, then create a majority decision based off that, then this dangerous divide would be no longer a problem.
TwiiKuu hits the nail on the head. The divide between players with vocal opinions and those who are making decisions for everyone seemingly without any viewable discussion is alarming. It's clear that there is a gap between those who believe that global whitelists will create a more positive relation between the community, new players and Valve, and those who feel they're making the game cluttered and less fun for already active participants, incentivizing them to move on.
As a result key members in the community who are involved in this decision making process are being painted negatively for their seemingly unopposed philosophy on the game, which everyone else hasn't really had a say in. I don't like hearing anyone saying b4nny or Slin are stupid for their views on the game, but it's inevitable when it looks like the vocal community is in disagreement with their decisions.
-----
On a personal note, it's my opinion that the games white-list should be more geared towards already active participants and creating the most fun possible. This is what enriches the game. I see little purpose in allowing weapons which are clearly viewed negatively by the majority. It does nothing to entice new players to play, and it serves only to make old players not wish to play against cancerous conditions.
-----
That's just my 2 cents. If we could actively see top players have this kind of discussion in an easily viewable thread, then create a majority decision based off that, then this dangerous divide would be no longer a problem.
As a result key members in the community who are involved in this decision making process are being painted negatively for their seemingly unopposed philosophy on the game, which everyone else hasn't really had a say in. I don't like hearing anyone saying b4nny or Slin are stupid for their views on the game, but it's inevitable when it looks like the vocal community is in disagreement with their decisions.
-----
On a personal note, it's my opinion that the games white-list should be more geared towards already active participants and creating the most fun possible. This is what enriches the game. I see little purpose in allowing weapons which are clearly viewed negatively by the majority. It does nothing to entice new players to play, and it serves only to make old players not wish to play against cancerous conditions.
-----
That's just my 2 cents. If we could actively see top players have this kind of discussion in an easily viewable thread, then create a majority decision based off that, then this dangerous divide would be no longer a problem.
I have spent a lot of time reading and chatting with pub-focused communities. The reasons why they don't wish to play is obvious and a whitelist is not one of them. Or at least a major factor.
Pubbers don't like the fact that they can't play their favorite classes all the time. Do unlocks even fix this issue? I would argue they mostly don't. Making engineer & heavy stronger at defending and pyro barely any better at being aggressive does not enhance the game. The classes are too wildly unviable and immobile. With unlocks, people still can't play their favorite classes 24/7. So the answer is no to this question.
Pubbers don't like how the top level of comp tf2 is represented. Yes this is honestly an issue I hear very often. A majority I have seen speak say competitive tf2 doesn't look fun to enter or even rewarding. You have b4nny streaming Froyotech, who almost fuck around in scrims constantly. You have new players enter pugchamp believing it is the beginner website, only to be vocally yelled at BY top players and even mediocre level players. This all is ALSO streamed by various people. I honestly don't think I should be told I am one of the nicer people in Invite while many can still vouch I am an asshole. Do unlocks fix this issue? Obviously not.
What is the incentive? Do you guys think just wanting to be good at tf2 is enough for people to try their hearts out for no reason? Why waste the energy on TF2 when you can literally do it in anything else? Obviously making a good, consistent, rewarding system outside of what ESEA has is extremely difficult to do. ESEA also still costs money. It's absolutely amazing that they got rid of the Open fee but, it still costs money. Much cheaper which WILL help but it not being completely free is still gonna drive people away. Are unlocks going to fix this? Again, obviously not.
With those paragraphs I have stated, why do we believe unlocks are the way to go? I know I use to have the mindset that unlocks should be allowed but my mentality back then was more "why not they really aren't that bad." I still don't think they aren't that bad, but look how much people who ACTUALLY PLAY don't want them. Why should we neglect these players for ones who aren't even here? I've been trying to think about this unlock situation as hard as I can only to come to terms that, yeah they aren't gonna do anything. Which is what a majority has been saying.
Are you guys looking for data? Do as I mentioned earlier and make a cup with actual incentive so people try. People won't threaten to quit the game this way, and valve can see plainly see why we don't want to play with these unlocks. Even theory crafting some unlocks can prove why they just aren't good for competitive. All in all, we have much more problems stopping people from playing competitive. These unlocks won't do anything besides bring Elite Pyro Guild TommyTwoFlares to potentially play and just quit anyway because of all these other issues potentially stopping them.
I have spent a lot of time reading and chatting with pub-focused communities. The reasons why they don't wish to play is obvious and a whitelist is not one of them. Or at least a major factor.
Pubbers don't like the fact that they can't play their favorite classes all the time. Do unlocks even fix this issue? I would argue they mostly don't. Making engineer & heavy stronger at defending and pyro barely any better at being aggressive does not enhance the game. The classes are too wildly unviable and immobile. With unlocks, people still can't play their favorite classes 24/7. So the answer is no to this question.
Pubbers don't like how the top level of comp tf2 is represented. Yes this is honestly an issue I hear very often. A majority I have seen speak say competitive tf2 doesn't look fun to enter or even rewarding. You have b4nny streaming Froyotech, who almost fuck around in scrims constantly. You have new players enter pugchamp believing it is the beginner website, only to be vocally yelled at BY top players and even mediocre level players. This all is ALSO streamed by various people. I honestly don't think I should be told I am one of the nicer people in Invite while many can still vouch I am an asshole. Do unlocks fix this issue? Obviously not.
What is the incentive? Do you guys think just wanting to be good at tf2 is enough for people to try their hearts out for no reason? Why waste the energy on TF2 when you can literally do it in anything else? Obviously making a good, consistent, rewarding system outside of what ESEA has is extremely difficult to do. ESEA also still costs money. It's absolutely amazing that they got rid of the Open fee but, it still costs money. Much cheaper which WILL help but it not being completely free is still gonna drive people away. Are unlocks going to fix this? Again, obviously not.
With those paragraphs I have stated, why do we believe unlocks are the way to go? I know I use to have the mindset that unlocks should be allowed but my mentality back then was more "why not they really aren't that bad." I still don't think they aren't that bad, but look how much people who ACTUALLY PLAY don't want them. Why should we neglect these players for ones who aren't even here? I've been trying to think about this unlock situation as hard as I can only to come to terms that, yeah they aren't gonna do anything. Which is what a majority has been saying.
Are you guys looking for data? Do as I mentioned earlier and make a cup with actual incentive so people try. People won't threaten to quit the game this way, and valve can see plainly see why we don't want to play with these unlocks. Even theory crafting some unlocks can prove why they just aren't good for competitive. All in all, we have much more problems stopping people from playing competitive. These unlocks won't do anything besides bring Elite Pyro Guild TommyTwoFlares to potentially play and just quit anyway because of all these other issues potentially stopping them.
Pubbers don't like the fact that they can't play their favorite classes all the time. Do unlocks even fix this issue? I would argue they mostly don't. Making engineer & heavy stronger at defending and pyro barely any better at being aggressive does not enhance the game. The classes are too wildly unviable and immobile. With unlocks, people still can't play their favorite classes 24/7. So the answer is no to this question.
Pubbers don't like how the top level of comp tf2 is represented. Yes this is honestly an issue I hear very often. A majority I have seen speak say competitive tf2 doesn't look fun to enter or even rewarding. You have b4nny streaming Froyotech, who almost fuck around in scrims constantly. You have new players enter pugchamp believing it is the beginner website, only to be vocally yelled at BY top players and even mediocre level players. This all is ALSO streamed by various people. I honestly don't think I should be told I am one of the nicer people in Invite while many can still vouch I am an asshole. Do unlocks fix this issue? Obviously not.
What is the incentive? Do you guys think just wanting to be good at tf2 is enough for people to try their hearts out for no reason? Why waste the energy on TF2 when you can literally do it in anything else? Obviously making a good, consistent, rewarding system outside of what ESEA has is extremely difficult to do. ESEA also still costs money. It's absolutely amazing that they got rid of the Open fee but, it still costs money. Much cheaper which WILL help but it not being completely free is still gonna drive people away. Are unlocks going to fix this? Again, obviously not.
With those paragraphs I have stated, why do we believe unlocks are the way to go? I know I use to have the mindset that unlocks should be allowed but my mentality back then was more "why not they really aren't that bad." I still don't think they aren't that bad, but look how much people who ACTUALLY PLAY don't want them. Why should we neglect these players for ones who aren't even here? I've been trying to think about this unlock situation as hard as I can only to come to terms that, yeah they aren't gonna do anything. Which is what a majority has been saying.
Are you guys looking for data? Do as I mentioned earlier and make a cup with actual incentive so people try. People won't threaten to quit the game this way, and valve can see plainly see why we don't want to play with these unlocks. Even theory crafting some unlocks can prove why they just aren't good for competitive. All in all, we have much more problems stopping people from playing competitive. These unlocks won't do anything besides bring Elite Pyro Guild TommyTwoFlares to potentially play and just quit anyway because of all these other issues potentially stopping them.
@Nursey
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
The real problem with these classes is more about "How to deal with them full time in 6's", and the communities think that they have the answer """"in theory""""", without trying them on proper try hard games (official matches, because obviously the main other way to train at these classes would be pugchamp, but hey, i'm always banned :) ); but there is very few, and even when you're looking for scrims, many people would deny you because you're playing "different" classes.
I agree that whitelist is not helping that much, but i'm in favor of it because it creates a diversity of gameplay, which, if we could try them out in proper games, have their pros and cons.
So first try theses classes, and if you don't want to at least don't bully those who try to play their classes in 6's
that would be the proper way to introduce new players into 6's.
Of course that would not be that good at the beginning, because they're learning how to play competitive as class that is not "supposed" to, but hey look ! over there ! plenty of games that are trying every character competitively ! and even if they're not that good at high levels, High skilled OTP's can suit their gameplay at very high level, even more if there is no professionals players in the game, and OTP are always (more or less) respected. And also remember that proper way of playing classes even as a scout, soldier demoman, hasn't been totally found, so please respect players that try things and try to figure out ways to play those classes in a proper environnement, (It could be PugChamp one day ^^^^^^^^^^ )
@Nursey
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
The real problem with these classes is more about "How to deal with them full time in 6's", and the communities think that they have the answer """"in theory""""", without trying them on proper try hard games (official matches, because obviously the main other way to train at these classes would be pugchamp, but hey, i'm always banned :) ); but there is very few, and even when you're looking for scrims, many people would deny you because you're playing "different" classes.
I agree that whitelist is not helping that much, but i'm in favor of it because it creates a diversity of gameplay, which, if we could try them out in proper games, have their pros and cons.
[b]So first try theses classes, and if you don't want to at least don't bully those who try to play their classes in 6's[/b]
that would be the proper way to introduce new players into 6's.
Of course that would not be that good at the beginning, because they're learning how to play competitive as class that is not "supposed" to, but hey look ! over there ! plenty of games that are trying every character competitively ! and even if they're not that good at high levels, High skilled OTP's can suit their gameplay at very high level, even more if there is no professionals players in the game, and OTP are always (more or less) respected. And also remember that proper way of playing classes even as a scout, soldier demoman, hasn't been totally found, so please respect players that try things and try to figure out ways to play those classes in a proper environnement, (It could be PugChamp one day ^^^^^^^^^^ )
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
The real problem with these classes is more about "How to deal with them full time in 6's", and the communities think that they have the answer """"in theory""""", without trying them on proper try hard games (official matches, because obviously the main other way to train at these classes would be pugchamp, but hey, i'm always banned :) ); but there is very few, and even when you're looking for scrims, many people would deny you because you're playing "different" classes.
I agree that whitelist is not helping that much, but i'm in favor of it because it creates a diversity of gameplay, which, if we could try them out in proper games, have their pros and cons.
[b]So first try theses classes, and if you don't want to at least don't bully those who try to play their classes in 6's[/b]
that would be the proper way to introduce new players into 6's.
Of course that would not be that good at the beginning, because they're learning how to play competitive as class that is not "supposed" to, but hey look ! over there ! plenty of games that are trying every character competitively ! and even if they're not that good at high levels, High skilled OTP's can suit their gameplay at very high level, even more if there is no professionals players in the game, and OTP are always (more or less) respected. And also remember that proper way of playing classes even as a scout, soldier demoman, hasn't been totally found, so please respect players that try things and try to figure out ways to play those classes in a proper environnement, (It could be PugChamp one day ^^^^^^^^^^ )
Olgha@Nursey
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
Full time heavy > Full time sniper.
He can't break a choke without taking double soldier and demo spam.
Spin up time also delays any form off damage.
Not a class designed to push.
Full time engineer > Why should any team bother pushing? If you're going to do something like that then both teams may as well run it and just turtle for 30 minutes.
Mini sentries and combat engineer won't work against any coordinated team.
Full time spy > No need to even push, you just wait and bait him out or can even send a scout back to change to pyro and just spycheck all the time.
Sure you get information but to what end? 10 minute round stalemates?
Full time pyro > One of the few that can push but against takes too long to take any space.
Any coordinated team can sync spam down a pyro from different angles and both scouts can just play with the heals so he won't get anywhere close.
Playing range should just smash him.
A lot off my points rely on a team being coordinated and not feeding though so it's probably irrelevant.
The game is designed for pushing and capturing points, not using classes that don't do that.
[quote=Olgha]@Nursey
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
[/quote]
Full time heavy > Full time sniper.
He can't break a choke without taking double soldier and demo spam.
Spin up time also delays any form off damage.
Not a class designed to push.
Full time engineer > Why should any team bother pushing? If you're going to do something like that then both teams may as well run it and just turtle for 30 minutes.
Mini sentries and combat engineer won't work against any coordinated team.
Full time spy > No need to even push, you just wait and bait him out or can even send a scout back to change to pyro and just spycheck all the time.
Sure you get information but to what end? 10 minute round stalemates?
Full time pyro > One of the few that can push but against takes too long to take any space.
Any coordinated team can sync spam down a pyro from different angles and both scouts can just play with the heals so he won't get anywhere close.
Playing range should just smash him.
A lot off my points rely on a team being coordinated and not feeding though so it's probably irrelevant.
The game is designed for pushing and capturing points, not using classes that don't do that.
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
[/quote]
Full time heavy > Full time sniper.
He can't break a choke without taking double soldier and demo spam.
Spin up time also delays any form off damage.
Not a class designed to push.
Full time engineer > Why should any team bother pushing? If you're going to do something like that then both teams may as well run it and just turtle for 30 minutes.
Mini sentries and combat engineer won't work against any coordinated team.
Full time spy > No need to even push, you just wait and bait him out or can even send a scout back to change to pyro and just spycheck all the time.
Sure you get information but to what end? 10 minute round stalemates?
Full time pyro > One of the few that can push but against takes too long to take any space.
Any coordinated team can sync spam down a pyro from different angles and both scouts can just play with the heals so he won't get anywhere close.
Playing range should just smash him.
A lot off my points rely on a team being coordinated and not feeding though so it's probably irrelevant.
The game is designed for pushing and capturing points, not using classes that don't do that.
Valve should do a better job of explaining in the game that some classes are specialists that are supposed to be played at certain times and let people know that you should know how to play more than one class to be useful in a competitive game. Some classes are useless most of the time and some others need to be ran at all times in every game mode, that's how the game works and valve should just explain it better.
Valve should do a better job of explaining in the game that some classes are specialists that are supposed to be played at certain times and let people know that you should know how to play more than one class to be useful in a competitive game. Some classes are useless most of the time and some others need to be ran at all times in every game mode, that's how the game works and valve should just explain it better.
Irish_JoshOlgha@Nursey
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
Full time heavy > Full time sniper.
He can't break a choke without taking double soldier and demo spam.
Spin up time also delays any form off damage.
Not a class designed to push.
Full time engineer > Why should any team bother pushing? If you're going to do something like that then both teams may as well run it and just turtle for 30 minutes.
Mini sentries and combat engineer won't work against any coordinated team.
Full time spy > No need to even push, you just wait and bait him out or can even send a scout back to change to pyro and just spycheck all the time.
Sure you get information but to what end? 10 minute round stalemates?
Full time pyro > One of the few that can push but against takes too long to take any space.
Any coordinated team can sync spam down a pyro from different angles and both scouts can just play with the heals so he won't get anywhere close.
Playing range should just smash him.
A lot off my points rely on a team being coordinated and not feeding though so it's probably irrelevant.
The game is designed for pushing and capturing points, not using classes that don't do that.
Olgha the communities think that they have the answer """"in theory""""",
every map is different, some of them could work easily with these classes, all i can say is that i tried pyro, and it works against good teams in mid/top high even if we're a team that has in general no experience (only won mid) so i'm not sure for the others, have you just at least tried them ? and the answer is no ofc, so why would i hear theory again that i already heard when many people would say that my pyro would never work against good teams, i'm still waiting for them to be right
[quote=Irish_Josh][quote=Olgha]@Nursey
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
[/quote]
Full time heavy > Full time sniper.
He can't break a choke without taking double soldier and demo spam.
Spin up time also delays any form off damage.
Not a class designed to push.
Full time engineer > Why should any team bother pushing? If you're going to do something like that then both teams may as well run it and just turtle for 30 minutes.
Mini sentries and combat engineer won't work against any coordinated team.
Full time spy > No need to even push, you just wait and bait him out or can even send a scout back to change to pyro and just spycheck all the time.
Sure you get information but to what end? 10 minute round stalemates?
Full time pyro > One of the few that can push but against takes too long to take any space.
Any coordinated team can sync spam down a pyro from different angles and both scouts can just play with the heals so he won't get anywhere close.
Playing range should just smash him.
A lot off my points rely on a team being coordinated and not feeding though so it's probably irrelevant.
The game is designed for pushing and capturing points, not using classes that don't do that.[/quote]
[quote=Olgha] the communities think that they have the answer """"in theory""""", [/quote]
every map is different, some of them could work easily with these classes, all i can say is that i tried pyro, and it works against good teams in mid/top high even if we're a team that has in general no experience (only won mid) so i'm not sure for the others, have you just at least tried them ? and the answer is no ofc, so why would i hear theory again that i already heard when many people would say that my pyro would never work against good teams, i'm still waiting for them to be right
Honestly, i'm sort of triggered by people saying that engy, heavy, spy, pyro can't be played in 6's.
[/quote]
Full time heavy > Full time sniper.
He can't break a choke without taking double soldier and demo spam.
Spin up time also delays any form off damage.
Not a class designed to push.
Full time engineer > Why should any team bother pushing? If you're going to do something like that then both teams may as well run it and just turtle for 30 minutes.
Mini sentries and combat engineer won't work against any coordinated team.
Full time spy > No need to even push, you just wait and bait him out or can even send a scout back to change to pyro and just spycheck all the time.
Sure you get information but to what end? 10 minute round stalemates?
Full time pyro > One of the few that can push but against takes too long to take any space.
Any coordinated team can sync spam down a pyro from different angles and both scouts can just play with the heals so he won't get anywhere close.
Playing range should just smash him.
A lot off my points rely on a team being coordinated and not feeding though so it's probably irrelevant.
The game is designed for pushing and capturing points, not using classes that don't do that.[/quote]
[quote=Olgha] the communities think that they have the answer """"in theory""""", [/quote]
every map is different, some of them could work easily with these classes, all i can say is that i tried pyro, and it works against good teams in mid/top high even if we're a team that has in general no experience (only won mid) so i'm not sure for the others, have you just at least tried them ? and the answer is no ofc, so why would i hear theory again that i already heard when many people would say that my pyro would never work against good teams, i'm still waiting for them to be right
Zen is my go to pyro main and we have actually tried it, when you push out off second against good teams, pyro becomes redudant as i said due to range so he runs back to switch to scout.
We have also done the same with engineer, we push out with the engi when we have the advantage and leave the sentry to cover last but the same story applies, he becomes redundant after we cap second.
What do either of the above classes offer over a scout when we need to take ground with an advantage?
Do you honestly think when we're playing 7, drackk is going to just dive into us with a pyro? Do you think any prem player would?
It's like you said, you did it in mid so it's irrelevant information.
Zen is my go to pyro main and we have actually tried it, when you push out off second against good teams, pyro becomes redudant as i said due to range so he runs back to switch to scout.
We have also done the same with engineer, we push out with the engi when we have the advantage and leave the sentry to cover last but the same story applies, he becomes redundant after we cap second.
What do either of the above classes offer over a scout when we need to take ground with an advantage?
Do you honestly think when we're playing 7, drackk is going to just dive into us with a pyro? Do you think any prem player would?
It's like you said, you did it in mid so it's irrelevant information.
We have also done the same with engineer, we push out with the engi when we have the advantage and leave the sentry to cover last but the same story applies, he becomes redundant after we cap second.
What do either of the above classes offer over a scout when we need to take ground with an advantage?
Do you honestly think when we're playing 7, drackk is going to just dive into us with a pyro? Do you think any prem player would?
It's like you said, you did it in mid so it's irrelevant information.
maybe im selfish, but i dont want to make the game i like worse by allowing lame stuff to make it bigger. i dont care if tf2 ever becomes a big esport, i just want to have fun in the video game
maybe im selfish, but i dont want to make the game i like worse by allowing lame stuff to make it bigger. i dont care if tf2 ever becomes a big esport, i just want to have fun in the video game
Irish_JoshZen is my go to pyro main and we have actually tried it, when you push out off second against good teams, pyro becomes redudant as i said due to range so he runs back to switch to scout.
We have also done the same with engineer, we push out with the engi when we have the advantage and leave the sentry to cover last but the same story applies, he becomes redundant after we cap second.
What do either of the above classes offer over a scout when we need to take ground with an advantage?
Do you honestly think when we're playing 7, drackk is going to just dive into us with a pyro? Do you think any prem player would?
It's like you said, you did it in mid so it's irrelevant information.
i haven't tried yet against really good players, but about the pyro it can be useful to pocket the medic better than a scout because it's not aim needed and has airblast, just need a team that knows how to play around him,
The thing is also that, the fact that it can works in mid/high is still relevant for players that are looking to play their mainclass in competitive 6's. In every other (I'm thinking more about LoL) You may be able to play an out-meta champ at very high level, but not top level. the thing is that tf2 people think that you CANT play these classes in 6's, which is obviously wrong, and i'm pretty sure you can still play theses classes against top high/ low prem. pub players are just getting into their mind that they will get bullied for playing their favorite class, which is true in many players state of mind that won't get scrims against a team that is running full time out meta class.
And also, ofc i have to try first in mid because :
1- I have to get used to this class (72h against more than 1200 hours in my main class soldier)
2- I have to build a team that knows how to play with a pyro
3- I also have to learn to maincall properly with a pyro in our team, what calls can be made with that gamestyle that we have now
It just takes time to learn a class that has almost never been played in 6's
[quote=Irish_Josh]Zen is my go to pyro main and we have actually tried it, when you push out off second against good teams, pyro becomes redudant as i said due to range so he runs back to switch to scout.
We have also done the same with engineer, we push out with the engi when we have the advantage and leave the sentry to cover last but the same story applies, he becomes redundant after we cap second.
What do either of the above classes offer over a scout when we need to take ground with an advantage?
Do you honestly think when we're playing 7, drackk is going to just dive into us with a pyro? Do you think any prem player would?
It's like you said, you did it in mid so it's irrelevant information.[/quote]
i haven't tried yet against really good players, but about the pyro it can be useful to pocket the medic better than a scout because it's not aim needed and has airblast, just need a team that knows how to play around him,
The thing is also that, the fact that it can works in mid/high is still relevant for players that are looking to play their mainclass in competitive 6's. In every other (I'm thinking more about LoL) You may be able to play an out-meta champ at very high level, but not top level. the thing is that tf2 people think that you CANT play these classes in 6's, which is obviously wrong, and i'm pretty sure you can still play theses classes against top high/ low prem. pub players are just getting into their mind that they will get bullied for playing their favorite class, which is true in many players state of mind that won't get scrims against a team that is running full time out meta class.
And also, ofc i have to try first in mid because :
1- I have to get used to this class (72h against more than 1200 hours in my main class soldier)
2- I have to build a team that knows how to play with a pyro
3- I also have to learn to maincall properly with a pyro in our team, what calls can be made with that gamestyle that we have now
It just takes time to learn a class that has almost never been played in 6's
We have also done the same with engineer, we push out with the engi when we have the advantage and leave the sentry to cover last but the same story applies, he becomes redundant after we cap second.
What do either of the above classes offer over a scout when we need to take ground with an advantage?
Do you honestly think when we're playing 7, drackk is going to just dive into us with a pyro? Do you think any prem player would?
It's like you said, you did it in mid so it's irrelevant information.[/quote]
i haven't tried yet against really good players, but about the pyro it can be useful to pocket the medic better than a scout because it's not aim needed and has airblast, just need a team that knows how to play around him,
The thing is also that, the fact that it can works in mid/high is still relevant for players that are looking to play their mainclass in competitive 6's. In every other (I'm thinking more about LoL) You may be able to play an out-meta champ at very high level, but not top level. the thing is that tf2 people think that you CANT play these classes in 6's, which is obviously wrong, and i'm pretty sure you can still play theses classes against top high/ low prem. pub players are just getting into their mind that they will get bullied for playing their favorite class, which is true in many players state of mind that won't get scrims against a team that is running full time out meta class.
And also, ofc i have to try first in mid because :
1- I have to get used to this class (72h against more than 1200 hours in my main class soldier)
2- I have to build a team that knows how to play with a pyro
3- I also have to learn to maincall properly with a pyro in our team, what calls can be made with that gamestyle that we have now
It just takes time to learn a class that has almost never been played in 6's
Sure the pyro can be a good pocket but you're relying more on the enemy to just be stupid basically. You sacrifice so much having a pocket scout/soldier move to pyro.
This comparison is null and void because pyro is not an out of meta champion, he is the best go to for disadvantage holds if a sentry can't be made in time, and yes of course they might get raged at for playing that class but that follows suit in all games from personal experience. Dota 2, Paladins and Overwatch.
Sure the pyro can be a good pocket but you're relying more on the enemy to just be stupid basically. You sacrifice so much having a pocket scout/soldier move to pyro.
This comparison is null and void because pyro is not an out of meta champion, he is the best go to for disadvantage holds if a sentry can't be made in time, and yes of course they might get raged at for playing that class but that follows suit in all games from personal experience. Dota 2, Paladins and Overwatch.
This comparison is null and void because pyro is not an out of meta champion, he is the best go to for disadvantage holds if a sentry can't be made in time, and yes of course they might get raged at for playing that class but that follows suit in all games from personal experience. Dota 2, Paladins and Overwatch.
Look, it doesn't take a genius to know what the top players want. They already vote for the unlocks each season with their respective league admins. We don't have to have a public forum in which we can observe the conversations of top players debating the unlocks. They have already voted and the whitelist that Aoshi published is representative of that discussion. Based on that discussion, it's clear that top players want a whitelist at least for certain weapons and classes that are seen as not fun or broken, and the whitelist is here to stay. That's totally fine by me!
All I'm saying is, we should try to make fair bans. The bans will come into question by both insiders and outsiders when they're specifically targeting classes that break the existing metagame, and they will come into question when:
1) We ban weapons that are powerful for underpowered classes, and
2) When we ban underpowered weapons for being seen as "not fun"
Are the bans against Dragons Fury and GRU justified? How about Natascha or Fists of Steel? Right now, in the comp scene, entire classes are being seen as not fun, which is really unfortunate. But sure. Go ahead, it's your league, it's your game, do whatever is most fun. I agree with this approach, and you have every right to ban these things.
But we can't push for a world in which our game is both supported by the developer and a world in which we control all the rules at the same time. At some point I envision a time in which we hand control of our game over to the game developers to balance the competitive game. I feel and hope that they should/would make decisions that are good for the comp scene and ultimately make them the most money. Unfortunately, what's good for making Valve money hasn't quite aligned with what's good for the comp scene just yet. So I'm in favor of whitelists for now with the hope that we can one day not have one.
Look, it doesn't take a genius to know what the top players want. They already vote for the unlocks each season with their respective league admins. We don't have to have a public forum in which we can observe the conversations of top players debating the unlocks. They have already voted and the whitelist that Aoshi published is representative of that discussion. Based on that discussion, it's clear that top players want a whitelist at least for certain weapons and classes that are seen as not fun or broken, and the whitelist is here to stay. That's totally fine by me!
All I'm saying is, we should try to make fair bans. The bans will come into question by both insiders and outsiders when they're specifically targeting classes that break the existing metagame, and they will come into question when:
1) We ban weapons that are powerful for underpowered classes, and
2) When we ban underpowered weapons for being seen as "not fun"
Are the bans against Dragons Fury and GRU justified? How about Natascha or Fists of Steel? Right now, in the comp scene, entire classes are being seen as not fun, which is really unfortunate. But sure. Go ahead, it's your league, it's your game, do whatever is most fun. I agree with this approach, and you have every right to ban these things.
But we can't push for a world in which our game is both supported by the developer and a world in which we control all the rules at the same time. At some point I envision a time in which we hand control of our game over to the game developers to balance the competitive game. I feel and hope that they should/would make decisions that are good for the comp scene and ultimately make them the most money. Unfortunately, what's good for making Valve money hasn't quite aligned with what's good for the comp scene just yet. So I'm in favor of whitelists for now with the hope that we can one day not have one.
All I'm saying is, we should try to make fair bans. The bans will come into question by both insiders and outsiders when they're specifically targeting classes that break the existing metagame, and they will come into question when:
1) We ban weapons that are powerful for underpowered classes, and
2) When we ban underpowered weapons for being seen as "not fun"
Are the bans against Dragons Fury and GRU justified? How about Natascha or Fists of Steel? Right now, in the comp scene, entire classes are being seen as not fun, which is really unfortunate. But sure. Go ahead, it's your league, it's your game, do whatever is most fun. I agree with this approach, and you have every right to ban these things.
But we can't push for a world in which our game is both supported by the developer and a world in which we control all the rules at the same time. At some point I envision a time in which we hand control of our game over to the game developers to balance the competitive game. I feel and hope that they should/would make decisions that are good for the comp scene and ultimately make them the most money. Unfortunately, what's good for making Valve money hasn't quite aligned with what's good for the comp scene just yet. So I'm in favor of whitelists for now with the hope that we can one day not have one.
Maybe if valve would communicate what weapons they were looking to balance cooperation would be easier and this whitelist would be much easier to swallow.
Maybe if valve would communicate what weapons they were looking to balance cooperation would be easier and this whitelist would be much easier to swallow.
I'm gonna avoid writing a full blown nerd essay here, but I have a few inklings of things I think need to be addressed.
1. This game has always been *ours* it is made up by a select group of people who enjoy the format. Trying to cater to imaginary people doesn't get us anywhere. If we were actively having conversations with large groups of non-6s playing people (such as a pub community or a lot of exclusively HL players were suddenly very interested), or Valve about what they'd like to see, with a clear path towards more support - it would be different, but none of that exists so trying to interject any of these things into a debate about what sort of whitelist we ought to have is a red herring.
Personally I'm in favor of a very strict whitelist simply to remove as many extraneous mechanics from the game as possible because I don't feel that they add anything particularly exciting. What does a soldier spamming a choke so as to be able to toot a horn that gives a temporary boost really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly? But I realize most people don't see it that way.
2. Part of the reason off-classes have become so limited in their usage relative to say 5-6 years ago is actually less a function of how players think and more a function of our shrinking community. It used to be entirely possible to play nearly full-time pyro/heavy in lobbies and not be completely hated by the entire community, because there were so many lobbies going on, if people really had trouble dealing with it they could just move into another lobby, but the lobby with your offclassing fan would still fill. That doesn't happen anymore, we're in much tighter pug groups with a much more limited player set, so if you main heavy the whole game and upset too many people, they'll never play with you again, and then the person who gleefully plays the fat man never gets to play again and the player base has less and less experience in dealing with say, a heavy standing on spire.
It's also a function of the community's penchant for pre-arranging scrims. When you set up scrims in advance with the same small selection of teams over and over again there is a major incentive to not piss off that team such that they'll refuse to scrim you because you run x off-class more than they'd like; ultimately ending up as a team that can't find scrims. Since you're playing nice with your scrim partners, there is a clear incentive to not practice doing things like dragging a sentry out to second, so when it comes time for a match, having never practiced it, people don't do it. Particularly because again, that team they're playing may be a scrim partner on every other week of the season and you don't want to make them hate you. Whereas, in the past, one could find scrims very readily even if you had a reputation for, say, dragging your sentry from last all the way to gullywash mid, because ultimately if the other team refused to play from that point on, you could just go find another scrim in 5-10 minutes, and eventually that team would forget what you'd done to them because they would be playing bunches of other teams every day.
Obviously those 2 points don't necessarily apply to prem/invite teams of the past, but those players of that time, would've come up through that system and thus gained similar experience in playing and dealing with off classes too, and they still ran offclasses of different varieties far more often due to that experience they gained when they were still relatively green.
I'm gonna avoid writing a full blown nerd essay here, but I have a few inklings of things I think need to be addressed.
1. This game has always been *ours* it is made up by a select group of people who enjoy the format. Trying to cater to imaginary people doesn't get us anywhere. If we were actively having conversations with large groups of non-6s playing people (such as a pub community or a lot of exclusively HL players were suddenly very interested), or Valve about what they'd like to see, with a clear path towards more support - it would be different, but none of that exists so trying to interject any of these things into a debate about what sort of whitelist we ought to have is a red herring.
Personally I'm in favor of a very strict whitelist simply to remove as many extraneous mechanics from the game as possible because I don't feel that they add anything particularly exciting. What does a soldier spamming a choke so as to be able to toot a horn that gives a temporary boost really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly? But I realize most people don't see it that way.
2. Part of the reason off-classes have become so limited in their usage relative to say 5-6 years ago is actually less a function of how players think and more a function of our shrinking community. It used to be entirely possible to play nearly full-time pyro/heavy in lobbies and not be completely hated by the entire community, because there were so many lobbies going on, if people really had trouble dealing with it they could just move into another lobby, but the lobby with your offclassing fan would still fill. That doesn't happen anymore, we're in much tighter pug groups with a much more limited player set, so if you main heavy the whole game and upset too many people, they'll never play with you again, and then the person who gleefully plays the fat man never gets to play again and the player base has less and less experience in dealing with say, a heavy standing on spire.
It's also a function of the community's penchant for pre-arranging scrims. When you set up scrims in advance with the same small selection of teams over and over again there is a major incentive to not piss off that team such that they'll refuse to scrim you because you run x off-class more than they'd like; ultimately ending up as a team that can't find scrims. Since you're playing nice with your scrim partners, there is a clear incentive to not practice doing things like dragging a sentry out to second, so when it comes time for a match, having never practiced it, people don't do it. Particularly because again, that team they're playing may be a scrim partner on every other week of the season and you don't want to make them hate you. Whereas, in the past, one could find scrims very readily even if you had a reputation for, say, dragging your sentry from last all the way to gullywash mid, because ultimately if the other team refused to play from that point on, you could just go find another scrim in 5-10 minutes, and eventually that team would forget what you'd done to them because they would be playing bunches of other teams every day.
Obviously those 2 points don't necessarily apply to prem/invite teams of the past, but those players of that time, would've come up through that system and thus gained similar experience in playing and dealing with off classes too, and they still ran offclasses of different varieties far more often due to that experience they gained when they were still relatively green.
1. This game has always been *ours* it is made up by a select group of people who enjoy the format. Trying to cater to imaginary people doesn't get us anywhere. If we were actively having conversations with large groups of non-6s playing people (such as a pub community or a lot of exclusively HL players were suddenly very interested), or Valve about what they'd like to see, with a clear path towards more support - it would be different, but none of that exists so trying to interject any of these things into a debate about what sort of whitelist we ought to have is a red herring.
Personally I'm in favor of a very strict whitelist simply to remove as many extraneous mechanics from the game as possible because I don't feel that they add anything particularly exciting. What does a soldier spamming a choke so as to be able to toot a horn that gives a temporary boost really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly? But I realize most people don't see it that way.
2. Part of the reason off-classes have become so limited in their usage relative to say 5-6 years ago is actually less a function of how players think and more a function of our shrinking community. It used to be entirely possible to play nearly full-time pyro/heavy in lobbies and not be completely hated by the entire community, because there were so many lobbies going on, if people really had trouble dealing with it they could just move into another lobby, but the lobby with your offclassing fan would still fill. That doesn't happen anymore, we're in much tighter pug groups with a much more limited player set, so if you main heavy the whole game and upset too many people, they'll never play with you again, and then the person who gleefully plays the fat man never gets to play again and the player base has less and less experience in dealing with say, a heavy standing on spire.
It's also a function of the community's penchant for pre-arranging scrims. When you set up scrims in advance with the same small selection of teams over and over again there is a major incentive to not piss off that team such that they'll refuse to scrim you because you run x off-class more than they'd like; ultimately ending up as a team that can't find scrims. Since you're playing nice with your scrim partners, there is a clear incentive to not practice doing things like dragging a sentry out to second, so when it comes time for a match, having never practiced it, people don't do it. Particularly because again, that team they're playing may be a scrim partner on every other week of the season and you don't want to make them hate you. Whereas, in the past, one could find scrims very readily even if you had a reputation for, say, dragging your sentry from last all the way to gullywash mid, because ultimately if the other team refused to play from that point on, you could just go find another scrim in 5-10 minutes, and eventually that team would forget what you'd done to them because they would be playing bunches of other teams every day.
Obviously those 2 points don't necessarily apply to prem/invite teams of the past, but those players of that time, would've come up through that system and thus gained similar experience in playing and dealing with off classes too, and they still ran offclasses of different varieties far more often due to that experience they gained when they were still relatively green.
YeeHawMaybe if valve would communicate what weapons they were looking to balance, cooperation would be easier.
Agreed, they did use to do this for a time too so it wouldn't be unprecedented.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100821092101/http://www.randomchatter.com/2010/08/ff-50/
Robin Walker - August 17th, 2010Unfortunately for Jason, my slow process of answering interviews seems to have worked in my favor here, because since he wrote the question tournaments have been opening up their item adoptions a bit, with bans mostly focusing on Natascha, The Wrangler, and The Sandman. It'd be nice if we could get people using the Wrangler a bit more so we can get useful competitive feedback on it, but overall we're pretty happy with this level of adoption.
Although it took 3 years for Wrangler to get nerfed after that and it wasn't even a nerf geared around 6s at all because they didn't really get what they wanted feedback wise in that case.
Nowadays I assume if Valve outright said "hey we want feedback on X from tournaments" if worse came to worse the people who run the global whitelist would just straight up allow it though.
[quote=YeeHaw]Maybe if valve would communicate what weapons they were looking to balance, cooperation would be easier.[/quote]
Agreed, they did use to do this for a time too so it wouldn't be unprecedented.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100821092101/http://www.randomchatter.com/2010/08/ff-50/
[quote=Robin Walker - August 17th, 2010]Unfortunately for Jason, my slow process of answering interviews seems to have worked in my favor here, because since he wrote the question tournaments have been opening up their item adoptions a bit, with bans mostly focusing on Natascha, The Wrangler, and The Sandman. It'd be nice if we could get people using the Wrangler a bit more so we can get useful competitive feedback on it, but overall we're pretty happy with this level of adoption.[/quote]
Although it took 3 years for Wrangler to get nerfed after that and it wasn't even a nerf geared around 6s at all because they didn't really get what they wanted feedback wise in that case.
Nowadays I assume if Valve outright said "hey we want feedback on X from tournaments" if worse came to worse the people who run the global whitelist would just straight up allow it though.
Agreed, they did use to do this for a time too so it wouldn't be unprecedented.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100821092101/http://www.randomchatter.com/2010/08/ff-50/
[quote=Robin Walker - August 17th, 2010]Unfortunately for Jason, my slow process of answering interviews seems to have worked in my favor here, because since he wrote the question tournaments have been opening up their item adoptions a bit, with bans mostly focusing on Natascha, The Wrangler, and The Sandman. It'd be nice if we could get people using the Wrangler a bit more so we can get useful competitive feedback on it, but overall we're pretty happy with this level of adoption.[/quote]
Although it took 3 years for Wrangler to get nerfed after that and it wasn't even a nerf geared around 6s at all because they didn't really get what they wanted feedback wise in that case.
Nowadays I assume if Valve outright said "hey we want feedback on X from tournaments" if worse came to worse the people who run the global whitelist would just straight up allow it though.
MR_SLINBut we can't push for a world in which our game is both supported by the developer and a world in which we control all the rules at the same time. At some point I envision a time in which we hand control of our game over to the game developers to balance the competitive game. I feel and hope that they should/would make decisions that are good for the comp scene and ultimately make them the most money. Unfortunately, what's good for making Valve money hasn't quite aligned with what's good for the comp scene just yet. So I'm in favor of whitelists for now with the hope that we can one day not have one.
valve is never going to swoop in and revitalise the scene for everyone
MM has been on the shit pile for 2 years. pubbers aren't even gonna give a shit if it gets changed now.
[quote=MR_SLIN]
But we can't push for a world in which our game is both supported by the developer and a world in which we control all the rules at the same time. At some point I envision a time in which we hand control of our game over to the game developers to balance the competitive game. I feel and hope that they should/would make decisions that are good for the comp scene and ultimately make them the most money. Unfortunately, what's good for making Valve money hasn't quite aligned with what's good for the comp scene just yet. So I'm in favor of whitelists for now with the hope that we can one day not have one.[/quote]
valve is never going to swoop in and revitalise the scene for everyone
MM has been on the shit pile for 2 years. pubbers aren't even gonna give a shit if it gets changed now.
But we can't push for a world in which our game is both supported by the developer and a world in which we control all the rules at the same time. At some point I envision a time in which we hand control of our game over to the game developers to balance the competitive game. I feel and hope that they should/would make decisions that are good for the comp scene and ultimately make them the most money. Unfortunately, what's good for making Valve money hasn't quite aligned with what's good for the comp scene just yet. So I'm in favor of whitelists for now with the hope that we can one day not have one.[/quote]
valve is never going to swoop in and revitalise the scene for everyone
MM has been on the shit pile for 2 years. pubbers aren't even gonna give a shit if it gets changed now.
Might aswell put classlimit 0 on everything considering what people think of offclasses nowadays
Any strat or offclass people dont know is instantly considered BM and the enemy team might cancel the server reservation outright instead of thinking "how do i deal with this"
In the lowest level of 6s, so many teams would benefit from putting their bad scout or their bad soldier on fulltime heavy but they dont because of the unspoken "etiquette" rules.
Might aswell put classlimit 0 on everything considering what people think of offclasses nowadays
Any strat or offclass people dont know is instantly considered BM and the enemy team might cancel the server reservation outright instead of thinking "how do i deal with this"
In the lowest level of 6s, so many teams would benefit from putting their bad scout or their bad soldier on fulltime heavy but they dont because of the unspoken "etiquette" rules.
Any strat or offclass people dont know is instantly considered BM and the enemy team might cancel the server reservation outright instead of thinking "how do i deal with this"
In the lowest level of 6s, so many teams would benefit from putting their bad scout or their bad soldier on fulltime heavy but they dont because of the unspoken "etiquette" rules.
MR_SLINAt some point I envision a time in which we hand control of our game over to the game developers to balance the competitive game.
Slin for fuck sake honestly how can you be this naive, you pretty much seem to have as little understanding of this game as the TF2 team. If you really think there will be a time, where the TF2 team suddenly comes aware of how the game actually works and knows how to balance all of the weapons out you are just starry-eyed.
You're literally envisioning that one day your dear dog "Albert 666" will learn how to cook you eggs and bacon and hoover your roof. The more "support" TF2 gets from the clueless developers, the more broken and shit the game gets, no one benefits from this.
[quote=MR_SLIN]At some point I envision a time in which we hand control of our game over to the game developers to balance the competitive game.[/quote]
Slin for fuck sake honestly how can you be this naive, you pretty much seem to have as little understanding of this game as the TF2 team. If you really think there will be a time, where the TF2 team suddenly comes aware of how the game actually works and knows how to balance all of the weapons out you are just starry-eyed.
You're literally envisioning that one day your dear dog "Albert 666" will learn how to cook you eggs and bacon and hoover your roof. The more "support" TF2 gets from the clueless developers, the more broken and shit the game gets, no one benefits from this.
Slin for fuck sake honestly how can you be this naive, you pretty much seem to have as little understanding of this game as the TF2 team. If you really think there will be a time, where the TF2 team suddenly comes aware of how the game actually works and knows how to balance all of the weapons out you are just starry-eyed.
You're literally envisioning that one day your dear dog "Albert 666" will learn how to cook you eggs and bacon and hoover your roof. The more "support" TF2 gets from the clueless developers, the more broken and shit the game gets, no one benefits from this.
MarxistWhat does a soldier spamming a choke so as to be able to toot a horn that gives a temporary boost really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?
Hard disagree on the banners, you're phrasing it in such a way to make it sound shit but you can say the same thing about uber/kritz. "What does a medic healing a player so as to be able to go all shiny really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?" The banners would be crazy cool mechanics if you could wear them at the same time as gunboats or if you spawned with them nearly charged.
There are for sure weapons that are dumb in concept and will never be good in tf2 and I can see why you would want to remove them but the banners are really solid conceptually even if they are currently underwhelming to play with/against.
[quote=Marxist]What does a soldier spamming a choke so as to be able to toot a horn that gives a temporary boost really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?[/quote]
Hard disagree on the banners, you're phrasing it in such a way to make it sound shit but you can say the same thing about uber/kritz. "What does a medic healing a player so as to be able to go all shiny really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?" The banners would be crazy cool mechanics if you could wear them at the same time as gunboats or if you spawned with them nearly charged.
There are for sure weapons that are dumb in concept and will never be good in tf2 and I can see why you would want to remove them but the banners are really solid conceptually even if they are currently underwhelming to play with/against.
Hard disagree on the banners, you're phrasing it in such a way to make it sound shit but you can say the same thing about uber/kritz. "What does a medic healing a player so as to be able to go all shiny really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?" The banners would be crazy cool mechanics if you could wear them at the same time as gunboats or if you spawned with them nearly charged.
There are for sure weapons that are dumb in concept and will never be good in tf2 and I can see why you would want to remove them but the banners are really solid conceptually even if they are currently underwhelming to play with/against.
PheaaMarxistWhat does a soldier spamming a choke so as to be able to toot a horn that gives a temporary boost really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?
Hard disagree on the banners, you're phrasing it in such a way to make it sound shit but you can say the same thing about uber/kritz. "What does a medic healing a player so as to be able to go all shiny really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?" The banners would be crazy cool mechanics if you could wear them at the same time as gunboats or if you spawned with them nearly charged.
Honestly I think that people who have played with and against banners think that they're in a good place balance wise. Both of your proposed changes would make them ridiculously over powered.
When used properly the battalions backup can help a last hold or a push into a point just as much as an Uber can. Especially in situations where you can catch a team off guard, the banners are really good. But in that respect it's hard to catch teams off guard cause you have a massive backpack on, and once you use it the first time there is less surprise.
I seriously believe the current whitelist is relatively unexplored and that expanding it more could be cool, but we just have to realize that if we allow an item that pisses enough people off it can literally kill invite
[quote=Pheaa][quote=Marxist]What does a soldier spamming a choke so as to be able to toot a horn that gives a temporary boost really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?[/quote]
Hard disagree on the banners, you're phrasing it in such a way to make it sound shit but you can say the same thing about uber/kritz. "What does a medic healing a player so as to be able to go all shiny really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?" The banners would be crazy cool mechanics if you could wear them at the same time as gunboats or if you spawned with them nearly charged.[/quote]
Honestly I think that people who have played with and against banners think that they're in a good place balance wise. Both of your proposed changes would make them ridiculously over powered.
When used properly the battalions backup can help a last hold or a push into a point just as much as an Uber can. Especially in situations where you can catch a team off guard, the banners are really good. But in that respect it's hard to catch teams off guard cause you have a massive backpack on, and once you use it the first time there is less surprise.
I seriously believe the current whitelist is relatively unexplored and that expanding it more could be cool, but we just have to realize that if we allow an item that pisses enough people off it can literally kill invite
Hard disagree on the banners, you're phrasing it in such a way to make it sound shit but you can say the same thing about uber/kritz. "What does a medic healing a player so as to be able to go all shiny really add to the experience of playing competitive TF2 besides the momentary joy of doing something silly?" The banners would be crazy cool mechanics if you could wear them at the same time as gunboats or if you spawned with them nearly charged.[/quote]
Honestly I think that people who have played with and against banners think that they're in a good place balance wise. Both of your proposed changes would make them ridiculously over powered.
When used properly the battalions backup can help a last hold or a push into a point just as much as an Uber can. Especially in situations where you can catch a team off guard, the banners are really good. But in that respect it's hard to catch teams off guard cause you have a massive backpack on, and once you use it the first time there is less surprise.
I seriously believe the current whitelist is relatively unexplored and that expanding it more could be cool, but we just have to realize that if we allow an item that pisses enough people off it can literally kill invite
CondoMMore of a blacklist than a whitelist these days ...
How come weapons aren't allowed based on the value they add to the 6v6 gamemode anymore?
I cant be the only one so frustrated by this clutter of pointless weapons being included in our competition seemingly by default
being like a blacklist is good because it gives valve an idea of what seriously needs changing the most. its not really a clutter, it really doesnt affect you in any way that the weapons are allowed if nobody uses them anyway
[quote=CondoM]More of a blacklist than a whitelist these days ...
How come weapons aren't allowed based on the value they add to the 6v6 gamemode anymore?
I cant be the only one so frustrated by this clutter of pointless weapons being included in our competition seemingly by default[/quote]
being like a blacklist is good because it gives valve an idea of what seriously needs changing the most. its not really a clutter, it really doesnt affect you in any way that the weapons are allowed if nobody uses them anyway
How come weapons aren't allowed based on the value they add to the 6v6 gamemode anymore?
I cant be the only one so frustrated by this clutter of pointless weapons being included in our competition seemingly by default[/quote]
being like a blacklist is good because it gives valve an idea of what seriously needs changing the most. its not really a clutter, it really doesnt affect you in any way that the weapons are allowed if nobody uses them anyway
syphValve should do a better job of explaining in the game that some classes are specialists that are supposed to be played at certain times (...) Some classes are useless most of the time and some others need to be ran at all times in every game mode, that's how the game works
that's how the game works in competitive yes, it is not intentional but simply a result of the fact valve has balanced TF2 around pubs for so long. Now they are shifting slowly to balancing around competitive.
[quote=syph]Valve should do a better job of explaining in the game that some classes are specialists that are supposed to be played at certain times (...) Some classes are useless most of the time and some others need to be ran at all times in every game mode, that's how the game works[/quote]
that's how the game works in competitive yes, it is not intentional but simply a result of the fact valve has balanced TF2 around pubs for so long. Now they are shifting slowly to balancing around competitive.
that's how the game works in competitive yes, it is not intentional but simply a result of the fact valve has balanced TF2 around pubs for so long. Now they are shifting slowly to balancing around competitive.
fwiw here's a whitelist based on the votes from gentlemanjon's whitelist voting site, if items were banned based on wether they are more favorable than not as of this post (3.0+ rating)
http://whitelist.tf/8266
fwiw here's a whitelist based on the votes from gentlemanjon's whitelist voting site, if items were banned based on wether they are more favorable than not as of this post (3.0+ rating)
http://whitelist.tf/8266
http://whitelist.tf/8266
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