K1Does anyone else feel like rapid and blitz shouldn't be part of the world chess championship? Like there are separate tournaments for those specific format why are they included in this one
I don't think it's perfect but I also don't think there is a good alternative. Say the rapid section were removed and if the game was tied either the challenger or the champion were automatically assigned as the winner, all that would really do is encourage one side to play extremely safe and draw content. I mean right now Caruana isn't doing anything super ambitious yet but I think he should be, he has no chance against Carlsen in the rapid time controls.
[quote=K1]Does anyone else feel like rapid and blitz shouldn't be part of the world chess championship? Like there are separate tournaments for those specific format why are they included in this one[/quote]
I don't think it's perfect but I also don't think there is a good alternative. Say the rapid section were removed and if the game was tied either the challenger or the champion were automatically assigned as the winner, all that would really do is encourage one side to play extremely safe and draw content. I mean right now Caruana isn't doing anything super ambitious yet but I think he should be, he has no chance against Carlsen in the rapid time controls.
SpaceCadetK1Does anyone elsefeel like rapid and blitz shouldn't be part of the world chess championship? Like there are separate tournaments for those specific format why are they included in this one
I completely agree that rapid and blitz have no place in determining the Classical Chess Champion. However, I would get too caught up in the fact there are so many Draws. Lots of Draws have always been part of long 1v1 series in chess.
There is a growing movement among the GM's to make some serious changes in the chess world.
First is to revamp the format of the Chess Championship we currently see on display. There is a lot of steam behind returning to the 24 match format or the First to 6 Wins format. Both allowed players to truly take risks and play with creativity as the series progressed. It made chess beautiful and not such a "1 mistake and I could lose everything" scenario like we see right now. Both Magnus and Fabiano are loathe to play anything truly aggressive right now. Instead it is a waiting game for one of them to play an inaccuracy or potential blunder. There is little beauty in this chess at the moment but that could change as I hope.
I personally want the "First to 6" format to return. Get these guys playing 2 matches per day and let them go until we have a clear winner. That is exciting to imagine. Here is one of the best lists for past world championships, the players, the formats used and the records of win/losses and draws for each.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Chess_Championships
Second, the amount of GM's is at a totally insane level and whole they are all worthy of the title, the vast amount does decrease the meaning in as lot of peoples eyes. I hope they go forward with the "Super Grand Master" title or another such name. IMO, you must acknowledge the truly awesome players from the rest in the same way the "GrandMaster" title was meant in the beginning.
Very true, the previous World Chess Championship especially was kind of a snoozefest
[quote=SpaceCadet][quote=K1]Does anyone elsefeel like rapid and blitz shouldn't be part of the world chess championship? Like there are separate tournaments for those specific format why are they included in this one[/quote]
I completely agree that rapid and blitz have no place in determining the Classical Chess Champion. However, I would get too caught up in the fact there are so many Draws. Lots of Draws have always been part of long 1v1 series in chess.
There is a growing movement among the GM's to make some serious changes in the chess world.
First is to revamp the format of the Chess Championship we currently see on display. There is a lot of steam behind returning to the 24 match format or the First to 6 Wins format. Both allowed players to truly take risks and play with creativity as the series progressed. It made chess beautiful and not such a "1 mistake and I could lose everything" scenario like we see right now. Both Magnus and Fabiano are loathe to play anything truly aggressive right now. Instead it is a waiting game for one of them to play an inaccuracy or potential blunder. There is little beauty in this chess at the moment but that could change as I hope.
I personally want the "First to 6" format to return. Get these guys playing 2 matches per day and let them go until we have a clear winner. That is exciting to imagine. Here is one of the best lists for past world championships, the players, the formats used and the records of win/losses and draws for each.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Chess_Championships
Second, the amount of GM's is at a totally insane level and whole they are all worthy of the title, the vast amount does decrease the meaning in as lot of peoples eyes. I hope they go forward with the "Super Grand Master" title or another such name. IMO, you must acknowledge the truly awesome players from the rest in the same way the "GrandMaster" title was meant in the beginning.[/quote]
Very true, the previous World Chess Championship especially was kind of a snoozefest
Soon we'll be done with the formalities and the 2018 World Rapid Chess Championship can finally begin!
Soon we'll be done with the formalities and the 2018 World Rapid Chess Championship can finally begin!
All_Over_RSchess sucks
u suck
[quote=All_Over_RS]chess sucks[/quote]
u suck
SetsulSoon we'll be done with the formalities and the 2018 World Rapid Chess Championship can finally begin!
I know right. Its frustrating with 10 draws in a row. However, Game 10 was the best of the series so far IMO so I have hope for 11 and 12. Both had chances in Game 10 and it could have easily been a win for either one.
Games 1 and 2 were also really awesome and could have potentially been wins. I can't help but think the series would be so much more exciting if one of those first 2 matches resulted in a win.
If it does go to tie-breakers, I think Caruana will be just fine in the 25 min Rapid but if that goes to Blitz his chances decline significantly.
[quote=Setsul]Soon we'll be done with the formalities and the 2018 World Rapid Chess Championship can finally begin![/quote]
I know right. Its frustrating with 10 draws in a row. However, Game 10 was the best of the series so far IMO so I have hope for 11 and 12. Both had chances in Game 10 and it could have easily been a win for either one.
Games 1 and 2 were also really awesome and could have potentially been wins. I can't help but think the series would be so much more exciting if one of those first 2 matches resulted in a win.
If it does go to tie-breakers, I think Caruana will be just fine in the 25 min Rapid but if that goes to Blitz his chances decline significantly.
Yeah, I also had hope but you've got to put the breaks on the hype train a bit.
Because then you get stuff like Bishop d8 and they start willingly trading and end up with a draw again.
If this was game 5 or 6, maybe even 8 I'd be super hyped, but in game 11 I don't see Carlsen pressing for a win anymore.
Either something massively crazy happens and game 12 turns into do or die for either of them or Caruana goes for it if he really doesn't like his chances in Rapid, but realistically you have to expect it to be downhill from here.
Yeah, I also had hope but you've got to put the breaks on the hype train a bit.
Because then you get stuff like Bishop d8 and they start willingly trading and end up with a draw again.
If this was game 5 or 6, maybe even 8 I'd be super hyped, but in game 11 I don't see Carlsen pressing for a win anymore.
Either something massively crazy happens and game 12 turns into do or die for either of them or Caruana goes for it if he really doesn't like his chances in Rapid, but realistically you have to expect it to be downhill from here.
I see you point of view, but these are the two final games of the series. The pressure is incredibly high and 1 lapse of judgement can be a blunder. 1 blunder at this stage of the series will likely be a complete loss. I would say moments like those are the main reason to be competitive in any game so that is where my hype talk comes from I suppose.
These Tie-Break scenarios really make me sad. Its like having a 6's match decided by 4's.
I see you point of view, but these are the two final games of the series. The pressure is incredibly high and 1 lapse of judgement can be a blunder. 1 blunder at this stage of the series will likely be a complete loss. I would say moments like those are the main reason to be competitive in any game so that is where my hype talk comes from I suppose.
These Tie-Break scenarios really make me sad. Its like having a 6's match decided by 4's.
Of course, I completely understand it, what I mean is that Bd8 and what followed wasn't really necessary, but in game 10 neither was really willing to commit to anything too complicated already. In game 11 and 12 this'll only get worse. Had they gone for it in game 10 I would've gone full hype mode, but they're both too smart to risk it so they won't in game 11/12 either. If you blunder in game 10 you've at least got one more chance at winning with white, in game 11 Carlsen doesn't have to risk it (assuming he's more comfortable with Rapid) and Caruana would have to play for a win with black, taking any risks in game 12 would be completely unexpected considering they way they've played so far.
Our best chance for hype games is some blunder in game 11 and either clawing it back to a draw or losing and forcing a do or die game 12.
And yes, the 6s match decide by 4s is exactly what I was getting at with my first post.
Of course, I completely understand it, what I mean is that Bd8 and what followed wasn't really necessary, but in game 10 neither was really willing to commit to anything too complicated already. In game 11 and 12 this'll only get worse. Had they gone for it in game 10 I would've gone full hype mode, but they're both too smart to risk it so they won't in game 11/12 either. If you blunder in game 10 you've at least got one more chance at winning with white, in game 11 Carlsen doesn't have to risk it (assuming he's more comfortable with Rapid) and Caruana would have to play for a win with black, taking any risks in game 12 would be completely unexpected considering they way they've played so far.
Our best chance for hype games is some blunder in game 11 and either clawing it back to a draw or losing and forcing a do or die game 12.
And yes, the 6s match decide by 4s is exactly what I was getting at with my first post.
Such a disappointing ending to classical - Caruana was so on the ropes and Carslen offers the draw??! I can totally see Magnus living to regret this
Such a disappointing ending to classical - Caruana was so on the ropes and Carslen offers the draw??! I can totally see Magnus living to regret this
What the actual fuck?
This looked like psychological shenanigans to get Caruana into time trouble before move 40 by sacrificing accuracy for fast play and then he just offers a draw?
What?
Was Carlsen just flailing around, somehow getting an advantageous position with massive time advantage and then decided he doesn't actually know how to play this at all so that 30 minute advantage is not enough or he's too nervous so he'd rather go for Rapid?
What the fuck!
What the actual fuck?
This looked like psychological shenanigans to get Caruana into time trouble before move 40 by sacrificing accuracy for fast play and then he just offers a draw?
What?
Was Carlsen just flailing around, somehow getting an advantageous position with massive time advantage and then decided he doesn't actually know how to play this at all so that 30 minute advantage is not enough or he's too nervous so he'd rather go for Rapid?
What the fuck!
Magnus plays white on first game for tiebreakers Wednesday
Magnus plays white on first game for tiebreakers Wednesday
i think its important to not assume that his thought process and intentions are negative, ya he had slightly better position and a lot of time but if hes not comfortable playing it none of that matters. especially when a lot of people upset are just looking at engine evaluations...
i think its important to not assume that his thought process and intentions are negative, ya he had slightly better position and a lot of time but if hes not comfortable playing it none of that matters. especially when a lot of people upset are just looking at engine evaluations...
I think this decision actually makes a lot of sense from magnus, one mistake and he could lose the title when he could just conserve energy and win in the rapid / blitz section he's so much more likely to win at. That being said it's kind of disappointing to see happen but perhaps the potential outrage at this would be enough to inspire a rule change for the future
I think this decision actually makes a lot of sense from magnus, one mistake and he could lose the title when he could just conserve energy and win in the rapid / blitz section he's so much more likely to win at. That being said it's kind of disappointing to see happen but perhaps the potential outrage at this would be enough to inspire a rule change for the future
I'd like to have seen the draw offer after move 40. Caruana was in time trouble and could have blundered.
I'd like to have seen the draw offer after move 40. Caruana was in time trouble and could have blundered.
Not necessarily negative, but it is odd.
It's one thing to not be 100% confident in your own evalutation and not wanting to play a complicated, roughly even position when you don't need to, since you're not guaranteed to get the better end of it, but it's a whole different thing to refuse playing a position that at the very least you should evaluate as even when you've got literally 4 times as much time as the other guy.
Most would at least play a couple more moves to see what happens, outside of some major blunder Caruana would've accepted a draw no questions asked even a few moves later because getting to move 40 in such a position where there aren't any quick moves with so little time is very difficult.
Keep in mind that the players can not agree to a draw until after the 30th move so Carlsen essentially offered it as soon as he could.
Not necessarily negative, but it is odd.
It's one thing to not be 100% confident in your own evalutation and not wanting to play a complicated, roughly even position when you don't need to, since you're not guaranteed to get the better end of it, but it's a whole different thing to refuse playing a position that at the very least you should evaluate as even when you've got literally 4 times as much time as the other guy.
Most would at least play a couple more moves to see what happens, outside of some major blunder Caruana would've accepted a draw no questions asked even a few moves later because getting to move 40 in such a position where there aren't any quick moves with so little time is very difficult.
Keep in mind that the players can not agree to a draw until after the 30th move so Carlsen essentially offered it as soon as he could.
Another consideration is that Magnus was frustrated earlier in the series and I think it was because Caruana refused to take the initiative in some games when it was clearly in his court. I believe it made Magnus feel like Caruana was simply playing "safe chess" and didn't want to mix it up in a lot of situations.
That said, this Game 12 draw felt like Magnus giving that back to Caruana since it was the last game in the series. I have to agree with Phantom, if it was really his intention, Magnus played correctly and to his advantage as the superior Blitz player.
FYI, these are the Tie-Break Rules:
---Best-of-four rapid games (25 minutes for each player with an increment of 10 seconds after each move). The player with the best score after four rapid games is the winner; otherwise they proceed to blitz games.
---Up to five mini-matches of best-of-two blitz games (5 minutes plus 3 seconds increment after each move). The player with the best score in any two-game blitz match is the winner. If all five two-game matches are tied, an "Armageddon" game is played.
---One sudden death "Armageddon" game: White receives 5 minutes and Black receives 4 minutes. Both players receive an increment of 3 seconds starting from move 61. The player who wins the drawing of lots may choose the color. In case of a draw, the player with the black pieces is declared the winner.
Another consideration is that Magnus was frustrated earlier in the series and I think it was because Caruana refused to take the initiative in some games when it was clearly in his court. I believe it made Magnus feel like Caruana was simply playing "safe chess" and didn't want to mix it up in a lot of situations.
That said, this Game 12 draw felt like Magnus giving that back to Caruana since it was the last game in the series. I have to agree with Phantom, if it was really his intention, Magnus played correctly and to his advantage as the superior Blitz player.
FYI, these are the Tie-Break Rules:
---Best-of-four rapid games (25 minutes for each player with an increment of 10 seconds after each move). The player with the best score after four rapid games is the winner; otherwise they proceed to blitz games.
---Up to five mini-matches of best-of-two blitz games (5 minutes plus 3 seconds increment after each move). The player with the best score in any two-game blitz match is the winner. If all five two-game matches are tied, an "Armageddon" game is played.
---One sudden death "Armageddon" game: White receives 5 minutes and Black receives 4 minutes. Both players receive an increment of 3 seconds starting from move 61. The player who wins the drawing of lots may choose the color. In case of a draw, the player with the black pieces is declared the winner.
No classic matches occurred in the World Chess Championship once again haiz
No classic matches occurred in the World Chess Championship once again haiz
Has this been the highest percent of draws in a world chess championship?
Has this been the highest percent of draws in a world chess championship?
magnus carlsen looks like donkey kong (still hot tho)
magnus carlsen looks like donkey kong (still hot tho)
monkeyjediHas this been the highest percent of draws in a world chess championship?
I don't think you can beat 100% draws in the classical games.
The Tiebreakers are a relatively new thing, but even if you want to count them there have been "worse" series, especially after these two wins.
EDIT: And we're done.
[quote=monkeyjedi]Has this been the highest percent of draws in a world chess championship?[/quote]
I don't think you can beat 100% draws in the classical games.
The Tiebreakers are a relatively new thing, but even if you want to count them there have been "worse" series, especially after these two wins.
EDIT: And we're done.
monkeyjediHas this been the highest percent of draws in a world chess championship?
Assuming you meant amount of draws rather than percentage, in 1984 there was a match between Anatoly Karpov and Garry Kasparov which had 48 games and 40 draws that didn't actually finish cause the chess federation president at the time cancelled it cause shit was taking too long lol.
also woo go Magnus
[quote=monkeyjedi]Has this been the highest percent of draws in a world chess championship?[/quote]
Assuming you meant amount of draws rather than percentage, in 1984 there was a match between Anatoly Karpov and Garry Kasparov which had 48 games and 40 draws that didn't actually finish cause the chess federation president at the time cancelled it cause shit was taking too long lol.
also woo go Magnus
Yes, but you don't even have to go that far back because of the 3 wins in Rapid.
2012 Anand won vs Gelfand with only one win in the Tiebreaker, so even though there were two wins in the 12 classical games because the 4th Rapid match had to be played (a draw) the draw percentage is slightly higher.
Yes, but you don't even have to go that far back because of the 3 wins in Rapid.
2012 Anand won vs Gelfand with only one win in the Tiebreaker, so even though there were two wins in the 12 classical games because the 4th Rapid match had to be played (a draw) the draw percentage is slightly higher.
I didn't get much work done today, I was glued to the match from when it started. I don't like the Tie-Breakers at all but I will admit that I had a really fun time watching today.
Carlsen got stronger and stronger each game today. If the rapid tiebreaker was longer, it would have been a complete slaughter. Game 3 in particular was so nice I have re-watched it several times already.
Now that everything is over, I think 3 factors contributed to the 12 straight classical draws.
1-----A poor tournament format. (after 2 straight World Championships decided outside of classical matches, its obvious there needs to be some major changes to the format)
2-----Two 2800+ players and the first #1 vs #2 ranked players in modern WC history. (Engines play so much more of a role now even when compared to the WC two years ago in 2016. Classical memorization of lines is significantly more prevalent in today's chess and we all saw it on display.)
3-----Carlsen failing to find the winning combo in Game 1. (It wasn't a particularly difficult line to find for pros and was very quickly seen on several streams including the main one (Svidler/Grischuk) without using engines. If Carlsen wins Game 1, the whole series has a completely different feel and probably would have been really exciting without the need for tie-breakers.)
I didn't get much work done today, I was glued to the match from when it started. I don't like the Tie-Breakers at all but I will admit that I had a really fun time watching today.
Carlsen got stronger and stronger each game today. If the rapid tiebreaker was longer, it would have been a complete slaughter. Game 3 in particular was so nice I have re-watched it several times already.
Now that everything is over, I think 3 factors contributed to the 12 straight classical draws.
1-----A poor tournament format. (after 2 straight World Championships decided outside of classical matches, its obvious there needs to be some major changes to the format)
2-----Two 2800+ players and the first #1 vs #2 ranked players in modern WC history. (Engines play so much more of a role now even when compared to the WC two years ago in 2016. Classical memorization of lines is significantly more prevalent in today's chess and we all saw it on display.)
3-----Carlsen failing to find the winning combo in Game 1. (It wasn't a particularly difficult line to find for pros and was very quickly seen on several streams including the main one (Svidler/Grischuk) without using engines. If Carlsen wins Game 1, the whole series has a completely different feel and probably would have been really exciting without the need for tie-breakers.)
2020 Change Classical chess to 960 chess.
2020 Change Classical chess to 960 chess.