Had a great time play testing it. Really fun map

best koth map for comp to have been made ever, period. amazing concepts and playstyle was so much fun, thanks for this map

i'd be interested to see how it plays, but #1 on the list of "things i do not want to do" is play into this sightline https://i.imgur.com/hB1yft2.jpg

hey there!

we play tested this version of the map 3-4 times with a mid-high IM group of players, this sight line wasn't really found to be strong for ether side. its tough as a sniper offensively to kill somewhere there because of the cover as well as the incoming spam, also on defense, as a soldier its great spam angle, but due to the wall thats placed directly behind the window you can easily take heavy spam damage in return.

some sight lines do have to exist for a map to play played with some sort of flow, this map I think does a great job at making some useful sight lines without it being too over bearing :)

more koth maps are always welcome. I hope someone will pull the right strings for one of the two major leagues to finally adopt 2 koth maps in the rotation. There is enough decent koth maps now (viaduct/bagel/cannery/ordinance) to make koth only cups too.

Are you sure someone on this window takes spam damage? i went against it as soldier and shot the wall that's behind it and took no harm.

With that said it looks like a cool map for soldier and not too scout friendly. I'd like to play it

I haven't played the map so it maybe it doesn't play that way, but I have a hard time believing that any top-tier sniper won't make any team pushing immediately lose a player walking out of spawn when he can see 4/5 exits from one fairly safe location. or, force the entire team to leave out of the bottom left exit where they'll get railed by spam from a team holding on the high ground on left. Especially if you can't actually get splashed off the wall behind, seems like it would force both teams to run sniper.

Take it with a grain of salt because most of my map-testing experience comes from HL, but a sightline like that immediately sets off alarms in my head.

edit: also this https://i.imgur.com/yNlJMSV.jpg

To be fair we did 2 playtests with yosh (one of the best snipers in NA) and he didn’t find these angles very abusable, from what I can remember. Also yes I’m 100% sure you can take splash damage off the back wall behind these windows, the shacks in front of the windows also balance it out because the player on the shack can deal the damage to the player in window but the player in window can’t reliably deal damage back due to the angle of the shack

I have a B5 in the works that fixes the invisible wall and slightly adjusts cover on the fence rock so that if you're sniping from the window, you can't get a good view of the 1st floor tower exit. Let me know if there's any other things I can touch up on for B5 before I release it.

Map updated to B5. See the tf2maps thread for download and changelog.
https://tf2maps.net/downloads/ordinance.5794/

Kinda piggybacking off of Hyce when I say this, but I'd love to hear what the folks at ETF2L thought of Ordinance during the pre-season cup.

I didn't think much of this map when i checked it out offline but it's definitely the best map in the cup after actually playing it. Most of the areas still feel crude and unrefined though, plus all the action happens around the point so the lobby was kinda pointless (to be fair forward holds were not tried). Otherwise the game was fun and the map plays great.

here's the cast of our game: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/361792440 (ordinance starts at 1.26)

Hey Honestly, from what i've seen so far, there is some things that are just weird, and not really interesting to play on,
1- the door that opens only by 1 way, this kind of door is a bit flawed.
2- It feels a bit claustrophobic honestly, like as a soldier, it felt mostly like a pub map, where i would just spam and go forward when i'm 300.
3- The height advantage is freakin too good and really easily abusable
4- there is maybe a bit too much of entrances for me (personal note).

what could be discussed, is, for me :

This yard that just seems a bit random to place here, it just felt like a really small 5cp, without being one.
The whole left side of the map, which seems maybe too much vertically oriented.

but as you said, it's an unique design map, that felt resfreshing for me to play on, it just doesn't seem to be ready for comp now

1. The original reason for the one-way shutter was because, in previous testing, without the shutter being there, the enemy team would frequently abuse the stairway room. So far it's the most eloquent way I could think of (for now) to make the stair rooms far more oriented towards the team that side of the map belongs to.
2. Fair enough. I noticed that some of the routes out of the team houses weren't used very often as well, which may or may not contribute to that feeling, not entirely sure myself.
3. Testing seemed to show the mid being very back and forth across practically every version. I can see where you're coming from though due to the point being indoors and there being a lot of small doorways and passages. Almost 0 good koth maps have indoor mids with highground that close to the objective. There's been practically no precedent for a good indoor koth point yet, so who knows?
4. The reason for the eight or so entrances into the mid room (and the highround/point setup) was my attempt to circumvent the problems that typically plague indoor koth mids. Maps like Suijin and Harvest have incredibly claustrophobic mid rooms with highground that is either difficult to access or easy to control by the team that owns the point, and very few entrances, leading to some serious chokes. I did the aforementioned things in hopes of giving both teams a fair chance of manipulating the highground regardless of who owns the point and to eliminate some of the chokiness/claustrophobia. Seems however that I might not have it up to par just yet.

I see where you're coming from with a lot of those points and partially agree with some of them, the above is just my explanations for why the map is currently how it is (and how it will end up is always subject to change).

The map looks very cool, and is definitely very unique. That said, I did not feel very comfortable playing it and while part of it was due to the fact that it's new, I also agree with all of the points that olgha said above; I'd like to add two things :

-The points caps too slowly in my opinion, and this slowness combined with the fact that it is on low ground means you cannot edge the point to force the holding team to stop you, but rather you have a big fight and you can only cap once the enemy has been killed or driven back to yard.
-Speaking of yard, I feel like the map is way too big. The first yard outside of spawn doesn't really serve a purpose, and in my opinion you could very well remove it. I know that product also has 2 yard areas before the point, but said point is easier to reach. On ordinance, the point's nature requires you to have a much more organized assault, so between that and the size of the map, that's a fair amount of time lost.

I never made maps so I don't know if that is possible, but a big step forward would be to make the building where the point is located bigger, especially its ground floor. Right now floor is really easily spammable, so if you get knocked off you'll probably need to go outside to climb up again.

If the biggest building gets implemented, I'd be curious to see this map played in HL (this would be very chaotic, like the koth variant of steel, but I feel like the many flank routes and hiding spots fits HL really well. I'd also be curious to see a 3cp variant, if you ever find the energy to make a neat last point.

btw, if you want to get demos from the games that will occur today or tomorrow, feel free to add me, i'll send you the stv demos

also i just noticed that you can go on the top of yard above the lobby, which seems just cheap for soldiers to hide behind the ennemy team

The feedback can be summed up with just some short words: Too big, too many pathways, too conveluted. The fact that the point is inside of a house makes it a lot worse because the combat is boring. One-way doors are also really bad in general.

The map feels really messy at all times and I think the problem is that it is so immensely cluttered that it is close to impossible to not lose track of what is going on. I lost count of how often there was an enemy behind my team and we didn't even know or how often I was able to get behind the enemy team without them realizing. It feels like teamfights are not dependent on the damage done but on who gets behind unspotted.

one way doors retarded why do they exist, dont like everything being inside, it feels like a shit version of koth_turbine

Maybe you guys could gives reasons about why the point being inside isn’t ideal or why the one way shutter isn’t ideal instead of calling it retarded or bad, there isn’t room for negativity if you want a map to develop properly (this is mostly for the above comment)

This map was not made to be as open and played like viaduct, the one way shutter is there to prevent the people who already have the point from holding their combo in an extremely safe and strong height. Also the point being inside makes it so the approach from the attackers is easier as opposed to having an aggressive forward holding making the attackers battle up hill. The ramp outside is a singular height to fight over as opposed to giving each side its own highly reliable defence options (which in viaduct gives the defenders 2 major high grounds to work with when you have the point, while this makes one)

I just find it odd, this map playtested in NA yielded completely opposite results from this feedback (also this map isn’t too big the playing area is factually less than viaduct)

It limits the gameplay. No interesting jumps/bombs, less angles of attack onto the point, uninteresting combat since it's all in a box.

The map should be designed to make the entrance non-extremely safe and not a strong height then. A big part of the reason why it would be too safe is precisely because the point is inside, and you can only reach that room with a very conveluted walkway: You literally cannot bomb the medic because of it. And it doesn't even prevent anything in the firstplace because a medic could surely just walk back and stand in the same door, holding it open for teammates and left easily if they really wanted.

Firstly, the same effect can be accomplished with the point still being inside. There are better ways than this two-layer approach and small control points to do that. An example of this gameplay done better is honestly the mid point of cp_5gorge where the entrances are more open, it's larger, and with fewer passages.

You could also make it outside while separating it from the "outside" with big walls/structures, make entrances larger, and prevent highbombing in and out and that would be it. A lot of the geometry inside is so tight and cluttered, so that teams that even try to hold inside just die. This forces the team to either hold on the enemy yard, outside, or your own yard with some forward players. Either way, all team combat will be forced into the outer areas of the map, and the indoor areas serving merely as a getaway for scouts/soldiers or as connectors to different parts of the outside area. There's no reason to be inside other than to cap the point.

A league setting is very different than a casual doublemix in many respects. Yes the PLAYING AREA is less than viaduct. There's no need for all these extra areas if you could just change the spawntimes? They could be shortened by 5 seconds and have the same effect. All without the extra downside of having to look for hiders or flankers hiding deep deep behind your lines. Since there are so many exits and entrances to every room and area it's also impossible to prevent people from hiding or flanking and you just will get destroyed by it over and over again.

Appreciate your effort on the feedback, Collaide :)

I watched this tournament, there were like maybe 3 full top teams playing and at most each team played the map 2, maybe 3 times. I'm not sure that's concrete better testing than 14-16 mixes ive played with mid IM - low invite average with a few top players mixed in.

I'd give a few more runs if possible, its a lot more dynamic than other koth maps in my findings. like i said, a lot of the playtesting here yielded opposite results but I can still understand it being played different or looked at different in EU.

Red side bug (always play blue)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kHIND8az04

The video starts with me standing in a questionable spot also
You can hide behind the rock at spawn

Fixed issues found by HOI
https://tf2maps.net/downloads/ordinance.5794/