This map is super unique and fun and was a pleasure to playtest, really excited for what the future holds on this map!!

This looks sick.

Mid was super sick when i played it and from what ive seen so far sniper isnt aids so thats like a +100 in my book.

Definitely a unique map. Plays better than it looks. Quick tangent:

I really love how a lot of the new maps recently, this one especially, are experimenting with drastic differences in elevation. People are quick to talk about how scout has been the strongest class in 6s--and soldier the weakest--for a few years now, and it makes the game stale. Introducing and developing maps like this which emphasize the soldier's best tool (jumping to high ground) while making that high ground difficult for scouts reach helps bring balance to the classes imo. While it's easy to say that game balance is a lost cause because valve will never do anything, I think people forget how we can really shape the meta by messing with the map rotation. Obviously map balance is a bit more nuanced than just adding new and weird maps, but it's important to think about! /tangent

Playtest the maps people. They're fun and good for the health of the game!

Updated to A3a, where the connecting ramp in the last lobby is now wider, so you can use it without triggering the shutter door nearby.
https://tf2maps.net/downloads/bluff.7344/

Updated to A4, new screens and changelog on TF2Maps: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/bluff.7344/

I couldnt stay for the whole mix so i'll give you my own feelings.

I enjoyed last and the low ground door, pushing mid to second, midfights, the verticality on mid.

I did not enjoy the forward spawn exit being soo far away from an escape to lobby.
I did not enjoy the grillage in lobby made to see in dungeon. It was really impractical from either left or right to have a good peek at it to see what is going through. IMO dungeon just discourages a team holding last to attempt a forward hold/to put pressure after sacks, for fear of back cap. I suggest putting a second door here :

https://i.imgur.com/sJHdjoZ.png

or else transforming this whole room into a pathway to lobby and removing the windows.

I did not enjoy two bits of geometry AT ALL :

https://i.imgur.com/p5EVTos.jpg

This one is very punitive for people trying to leave/push out of lobby. Much more than the little roof on process IMO.

https://i.imgur.com/4oyA6Tk.jpg

This one is bad cuz it's a strong defensive position both for people holding their second and for people holding enemy second. especially since med can be safe in shutter and still heal on the "high" ground. It's also way too low to provide spire-like airshots

https://i.imgur.com/6gzDuha.jpg

I did not enjoy being stuck/juggled in this low ground (i played med and demo). After a mid loss for example it's really easy to cut a medic's escape path because he can't go up here. And every other class can jump it if they want to flank. IMO gullywash has the baby door, and allowing attackers last access isn't a bad thing. this map should have a ramp there to allow it too. Especially if you ignore my suggestion about my previous point, then it makes standing on top of point a valid defensive position even against flankers coming from your own last.

Everything else is neat.

I couldn't agree more

this map was def a blast to play, esp as soldier for once

i kinda agree about the ramp thing on second, you should be able to escape through that shutter somehow, the other escape routes are significantly longer in terms of escaping that soldier on your ass as medic

i can understand to a degree about the idea that the enemy might just use that route to entirely skip second, but that does have precedent with gully wash as twiggy mentioned, snakewater with cheese, and badlands through valley kind of

right now distances a medic would normally be able to escape from a soldier at are now inescapable because of the lack of a place to run

if the maps been playtested with that ramp in i'd be curious to hear how those went

I told you guys both that the ramp used to be there and everyone that tested it back then hated it and made defending second unmanageable, it’s not similar to gullywash. Gully has 1 other choke to go through that’s why access in to the lobby is a good mechanic. Bluff is not similar, and it was removed for good reason and it’s played much better since then (it was removed originally because of a majority)

Yeah I heard you lucrative, but i think it's good to tell the map maker that there is no consensus on this. Disagreements are also useful feedback.

How did the third game go about the 'not pushing rollout' thing?

there was a consensus i think, by the players who played on the map version with the ramp, like luc mentioned, and told me later, people would just use the route as an extremely easy way to get behind and cause chaos in the lobby network indoors etc

i was in that third pug, and yes, pushing places that arent rollout work better, as expected

a6 feedback as scout/medic

the bridge above mid point is really obnoxious to walk forward on. scouts can get easy access to the height on the train cars but medics and demos are too restricted. The walkable path on the sides is too narrow and impossible to dodge spam on.

I didnt like the drop down + secret on last. It's a death corner if you ever get juggled down here, I don't see what it brings to the last fight.

Overall no memorable fights happened in the lobby area. Frags were only people caught badly out of position.
Dungeon did help defenders going around the attackers (i got forced easily cuz we didnt watch it), which is good.

I suggest getting rid of it, or somehow connecting it to the low ground in lobby here :

https://i.imgur.com/xjaF9V2.jpg

It could then allow you to make a lobby with two levels a la badlands : top level gives you top right and top left entrances, lower level gives you main and this new entrance, dungeon could be simplified and lead to second in a straight line from here for example :

https://i.imgur.com/e7pNF3O.jpg

The new pillar behind the last point felt somehow wider than the gullywash ramp to water. It made fighting there seem cluttered, but wasn't too impactful.

I liked the new 2nd forward spawn door to the safe side

I didn't like the second hold too much : holding from inside there :

https://i.imgur.com/tPBgOPW.jpg

is safe, but boring, and useful regardless of where the attackers come from. Overall not much rotation was needed from 2nd defenders and this is IMHO bad.

This highground :

https://i.imgur.com/SaqaiSw.jpg

Was never used by the defenders. I still think it's too powerful as a position for a team holding 4th and looking after a force of people going out of last, which makes holding 4th too strong (also the shape is weird). It doesnt even block a dangerous sniper sightline imo.

Getting shoved/juggled into here as you're trying to push happened a few times :

https://i.imgur.com/9EwasXm.jpg

and is both misleading and hard to escape.

I suggest getting rid of the forward spawn and making it a flank route with wider exit to lobby, and making the door leading to above second wider.

Updated to B1. There was also an A5 and A6 that got updated too rapidly to update properly on the tf2maps page.

A lot of stuff changed from A4 to B1, including new routes, new forward spawn exits, a bunch of minor geometry tweaks, and, of course, beginning detailing, including a dope aurora particle in the skybox thanks to exactol/fubar.

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/bluff.7344/

This map is dynamic and unique and mad fucking fun.

You're a God amongst men, Paper.

But it actually is sick why are people downfragging this person

probably because the smiley face links to a scam website