playing medic every now and again the speed buff is so much fun hitting surfs at that speed feels really fun. I think it should stay just for the fact i think it just gives medics more tools the play the game more. yes alfa I know that it's DUMB for the medic to run away with that one scout and live but im personally for adding tools for medic to make the game more fun like adding a speed buff for healing scout. Also the fixed fall damage is so fucking cool if ur tryna milk a uber and you know ur exactly taking 22 damage from this height would feel so fucking epic and cool. keep the speed : )

these are all really good updates that are going to make the game fun to play again for all classes

this could bring back ~shotgun pockets~ and could totally make the pacing of the game not entirely reliant on how much your scouts and demo play heals

IMO the medic speed is kind of iffy - random update that completely changed how 6v6 is played. made the game too safe for scout mains who don't know how to take 1v1s because they're 185 always. also kinda makes soldier really useless (or really good if you are comfortable playing w/o heals), but most pocket players in this game sit at ~30% every match. just kinda feels like a huge cushion for pocket scouts because they don't ever really need to worry about dying. also maps like sunshine, process, viaduct become less about the scout being good and more about the scout having more heals than every other player on the team

i think maybe it would force medic into a different role and he'd have to play more serious. no more joking around because the speed. i think maye b4nny or some pro would have to decide and make the decision for us. but as of right now. i dont see evidence to support speed. thank you. god bless.

agree tbh i dont see evidence to support speed

While we are at it can we talk about the crossbow?

try playing soldier without the crossbow in 2020

We have 9 years of play testing for the medic speed nerf.

no scout speed will be cool to try, idk when the next season is but so long as we have sufficient testing for it it could be really nice

the med scout speed buff happened right after i55, which is when, imo, tf2 was at its best (u can't deny i55 was the best LAN to spectate ever)

pocket mains seeing TicTack ubers about to come back

https://i.imgur.com/gHgBFFl.png

That's the point

Except the opposite is true because its harder to get the counter uber force out and scouts can chase your med with there counter uber.

Medics can not hold as close with small disadvantages because they will die without scout speed to run away with. You can take the push without having to worry about a scout counter uber killing your med. Team fights wont devolve into who has more scouts alive.

I mained med before the medic/scout buff and literally everything you said is wrong.

you cant take an uber trade into any point that isnt gully second or a last point,and even then without being able to scout speed your medic in to force them itll still take significantly longer to get the force,thus no teams will go for it since itll be an awful trade.

medics already dont hold that close with disad since like i said teams just adapted to having the demo bomb in,idk what div your talking about but if you hold close with disad regardless of scout speed or not you get caught and die lol.

i also played the game before the scout speed buff,so i dont see why youd bother listing that.

im all for trying this scout speed change,it does have the potential to alleviate some problems for soldiers,my only concern is trying to implement this without any sort of testing from invite teams,and there wont be nearly enough time to do such testing unless it started being done literally tonight.

what if med just permanently had a move speed as an average inbetween his default move speed and scout speed, or just permanent scout speed? that way meds wouldnt be encouraged to heal scouts more just to get out of fights. I like being able to move fast as medic personally.

Why the fuck should Medic get to move at Scout speed all the time? You like moving fast, but guess what else you should like? Surviving because of your positioning and mechanics. A single-digit death 30 minute game has significantly less value when you can just click Scouts and zoom away all the time.

On another note, while I agree we've had plenty of years playing the game without tether speed, it's also been a long ass time since the good ol' days and there's been plenty of player turnover at all levels. Even if a majority voted for removing tether speed, it should not be implemented for S3 as it's too soon.

That was never the case when i played. Dry exchanges where the go to for breaking stalemates. Granted the map pool was different.

I played top ETF2L high/div 1 then ESEA Invite.

Lots of scout mains theory crafting things they have never played.

Lets do it then. How about a week of scrims followed by a cup? Possibly play test some of the maps that got ruined by the scout change like blands while we are at it. No point in theory crafting on forums when we can just make it happen. Who is the current head admin at RGL?

Also I love demo bombs in ubers, please keep that in

I don't think there is an argument to vote "no" to any of the plugins except the three which consciously go directly against the developers intentions, those being:
1. Projectiles Ignore Teammates
2. Gunboats Always Apply
3. Removes Medic Attach Speed

1. Scenario: you are taking a 1v1 vs some enemy gamer. Suddenly, you start getting hit by long range splash and die. This already sometimes happens in current games, but it doesn't happen often since shooting splash at long range to help a team mate taking a 1v1 is a low percentage play, and you are better off jumping directly closer. Often times this means that whoever is taking a 1v1 will die and the soldier jumping in trades.
If this get implemented, wouldn't there be an increase in people just spamming long range rockets knowing that they are pretty much always going to do damage?

2. Soldiers taking 40% less from their own rocket jumps was a conscious developer decision to prevent soldiers from just being able to rape everything in a chokepoint more than they already can. But, I believe this change was made with pubs in mind in 2009, so maybe it should be removed. My thought process is, if everyone is talking about how TF2 was great at i55 or whatever, then I don't think that this is a necessary change.

3. The only argument i've heard about the downsides of the implementation of scout speed nerf is at this point just Valve Major™ so I think its removal is fine. I haven't heard any counter points in it's support other than b4nny saying he'd message yomps the reason and I never recall anyone in old TF2 saying "man i want all mediguns to give scout speed like the quick-fix"

there's a whole lot of theory crafting happening for us to be actively voting on this right now

https://i.imgur.com/ioAVT2S.png

Scout buff aside, I've been playing medic through every iteration of competitive TF2 and I can safely say that the speed buff for medics greatly lowered the skill ceiling of the class and how to manage ubers and when to use them. end of story.

I think removing that tether speed will be a really refreshing reset

EDIT: Id also like to add that It is a little silly to suggest that this needs testing lol compounded with the bug fixes this just brings TF2 back to one of its more popular states and the game was played just fine back then. Realistically if the majority of people don't like it, you remove it from the league the following season. Not everything in the game needs extensive (mostly private and pretty bias) testing, regardless of your opinion on it everyone will still be playing the same version of the game so it really shouldn't impact your level as a team.

fkn do a survey to find out if medics want the speed buff or not, there's only 20 medics in this game that still play the fkn class

It was literally the reason i quit maining medic after 16 seasons.

i see a lot more ubers getting forced when walking thru choke points to spam or a single soldier bomb when the enemy medic is on the other side of the map baiting because they cant hold in a more aggressive / risky position leading to more uber flip flops of point control. I also think ubers will be less important and harder to get huge value off of, while also making double stick jump ubers basically impossible without losing your demo. Medic mechanics is basically going to be can you surf a rocket when a soldier bombs, if not you die, and just your positioning.

Gully mid is going to be ass to push, snake last is going to be ass, process mid is going to be ass pushing with uber ad. A lot of the maps we currently play were designed, or finished being created, after the medic speed buff so that had to effect how the map was being made,a s it was the meta at the time.

I see this more as a medic nerf than a scout nerf, a 185 scout can still walk at you and kill you as the soldier class, you forget how long buffs last for. If you guys want to nerf scout, then nerf scout.

This is just straight up untrue? The tether speed update came in July 2016, which was during ESEA S22. The only new map(s) that we've seen in league play since then are Clearcut (lol) and Propaganda (double lol). Also, Sunshine and Metalworks - the "newest" maps in the rotation at the time, were multiple seasons in already.

I never thought my first reaction in a thread like this would be "wow, I really agree with alfa", but here we are

I understand testing such a massive change extensively before implementing it, I just wish people who didn't consistently play/watch high lvl tf2 for this whole time period would accept that some of us remember when the game was in its very best state (depending on whether or not you like the demo nerf this would be either i52ish or i55ish) and saw the really boring changes that the med speed change ushered in

a better counterargument would be to suggest that the skill level of players, particularly soldiers, has increased enough that we can't predict how a med speed-less game would be in 2020; maybe soldier bombs would just be too good, even against the best medics and pocket scouts in the game. that's what testing is for, which is valid.

Agree with everything that's been said so far in favor of the scout speed. Would be nice to have invite teams scrim it but I really don't think it needs to be tested, we played it for 9 years and the game was fine. I played two pugs yesterday on roamer with the promod and the flow of the game was so much better and team fights were actually interesting. Early damage on mid also mattered more because demos can actually get killed, the med coming faster to mid just means people get healed up early. Medics could actually get caught out and solo ubers were possible instead of the current medics always surviving and leapfrog back and forth simulator that is invite tf2 now. The current meta is so forced by the scout speed and 185 scouts running everywhere, and medics can just play so passive and get kited out for free now.

As someone who played med before and after the change the class is so much more simplified and lower skill ceiling, as alfa said having to surf was way more important and your positioning is actually important versus how sloppy you can be now with a scout to bail you out. Instead of a medics deaths being because of a combo scout not being close enough to latch on your death as a medic will actually be entirely in your own hands from playing positioning better and hitting surfs.

Also scouts will actually have to stand out on their own merit in order to have high impact instead of it just being designed into the class that they get to get all the kills in the server and never die cause they have a med on them 24x7. Like literally just go watch old seagull vods or i55 or something, there was so much more interesting dynamics in play than just one team being a little more sloppy and dying to a demo/scout chase bomb.

Regardless of my actual opinion on the need for the medic to be slower, I do think the plugin ought to be tested in an official setting like a preseason cup. Even if TF2 was played for like 9 years before the buff to med speed happened, we now have been playing with it for multiple years as well, and such a change to the flow of the game, in my opinion, should not be handwaved because the game once used to be like that. It would also allow zoomers (like myself) who only started playing after this change to see for ourselves since we can't rely on memories.

I also really agree with this point regarding gunboats buff, really don't see why its needed.

oh hell yeah

Obviously med speed removal won't take us straight back to i52 chad pocket era but if it gave the pocket role any more relevance I'd be so excited. Not only was it the most fun version of TF2 I'd played, but it also really felt like it required far more thought than after med buff.

The thing I miss most was the prevalence of low uber ad pushes. You could see when a top team absolutely knew they had like 8% ad and made the push work. Idk if I'm just not watching the right games but I never see that anymore, and I feel that's almost certainly to do with the ability of the med to evade the uber for an extra couple of seconds.

Definitely feel like dry pushing was more common in the pre-zoomer days too, where you could push and take ground and even potentially catch their med out of position (and if they're keeping their med too far away for you to catch they're probably giving up free ground). Now it seems there's almost no benefit because even if you do go for a dry push it's far more difficult to catch their med out of position, and if you try you're almost definitely overextending for the pick.

I guess I just don't see any skill-based benefit to med speed buff, for any class. Without speedy meds your meds 100% have to have good positioning, balance that line between giving good heals and putting yourself in a shitty spot. Your scouts have to rely on movement and just take less damage, as they can't run at anything with beam constantly on them. Pocket class gets reintroduced into the game. Doubt we'll see the mike/lansky/yuki solo ubers again but it'll definitely be more viable to have a pocket jump when their med can't literally just run away. Just feel like it's taken a lot of thought away from med/scout, and opportunities away from pocket (and roamer).

All that said I'm definitely I'd definitely agree with a preseason cup not so much for testing (as it was played for years), but to refresh everyone's memory/get everyone used to it before a season.
Also I guess I'm pretty bummed that RGL didn't even consider it for this season. RGL admins/sigafoo don't like trad 6es meta, this would be a huge shakeup (that most players here seem to agree would be for the better) and could even make other offclasses more viable? Scout ubers being less viable makes pyro stronger, meds not zooming around makes it easier for spies to stab them. Engy stays about the same though so maybe that's why.

expecting common sense out of RGL is as futile as trying to milk a rock. you're totally right that they missed a big opportunity here.