While we're making it pretty, can we reorganize the column order?

Something like: Points, Damage, DPM, Frags, Assists, Deaths, etc

r u talkin shit about scooby?

if this man wants to wear a fucking fedora, then this man gets to wear a fucking fedora.

I accidentally kill people all the time. The trick is to make it look like it was on purpose.

I'm all for reworking airblast but the idea of airblast is awesome. Good pyros (which I am not) aim reflects like that on purpose. This is the same problem everyone has with Sniper. Give the player some respect, and you'll die a lot less.

HE USES THE C STICK

also imo L-canceling is an unnecessary barrier of entry. They wouldn't need it if they just decreased landing lag. Would make the game a lot easier for new players without making it suck.

What about fighting games? I don't really know much about them but they've always seemed pretty popular for competitions and the like.

dohoho

i want to believe

ROFL

im so scared EA is going to fuck up mirrors edge 2. i loved the first one

can we start comming like EA does?

when they pop we'll be like HOSTILES INCOMING

better than the rest of it

I like your take on Valve's decision and I think you're probably right about the fact that we'll probably never get much more from them (though I'll never stop dreaming).

Class limits ARE required for 6s to flow well. Even allowing two of everything is too impractical, much less 6. Classes aren't balanced in relation to each other. For example: You will never be able to push last without a pick class, because you'll have two fully buffed heavies waiting for you (a whopping 900 HP). Another example: RIP roaming soldier. An expendable (read: second) demo can do everything that a roaming soldier is capable of and more. And there's no option NOT to run a second demo because of the sheer damage that the class is capable of producing.

Your claim that 5cp should be the only format for 6s is a bold one. But after thinking about it I can't say you're wrong. Koth and A/D lack the transition phase that exists between caps in 5cp, and that's where a lot of action and plays happen. I've never enjoyed watching koth or A/D as much as I have 5cp, and I've never enjoyed playing it as much either. I've felt that they were kind of a nod towards unused classes and strats, like Engineer on gpit and Sniper on viaduct. It certainly wouldn't do much for our image ("pros only play on 5cp"), and it takes us even farther away from maps played in pubs (which was a good point cinq brought up).

Maybe it's time we stop trying to appeal to pubs, and let Valve's HL lobby system do that for us? Then we can focus on what's best for 6s. Maybe a tf.tv sponsored 5cp mapping competition?

Nice post, gave me a lot to think about.

... I'm saying that's NOT going to happen. And yes, this thread IS about 6v6. Unless my monitor's upside down and all the 9s look like 6s. Killing is talking about the potential fragmentation of the 6v6 scene due to multiple formats, which ultimately leads to the disintegration of the community.

what is the difference between you saying its an experiment and me saying its an experiment

We all know why the class bans are in place, and we all know why we use the maps we use and ban the weapons we ban. We know what's good about the format and we know why it works. But Valve doesn't, and doesn't seem willing to take our word for it. So if they want an experimental tournament to see for themselves, then I think we should give them as much 'double heavy on snakewater last' as they can take before they fall asleep.

They seem pretty set on using objective data as the base from which they make all their changes, so we should give it to them. I trust Valve not to force 6s to be something it's not. Worse case scenario is nothing changes.

I'm willing to jump through as many hoops as Valve wants in order to get some support from them, but I do wish they'd give us a little more credit.

There are good reasons for the class limits. Two demos means the death of the roaming soldier. An expendable demo can do everything the roamer can and more, even with 6 stickies. 2 heavies makes pick classes for pushing last practically mandatory, which is much less interesting than what we have currently. We've already seen why we don't keep two engineers, and two Medics means a hell of a lot less aggression. If this happens and I have the time to play in it, I absolutely will. But all it will do, I think, is reiterate why we have those bans in the first place.

As for Demo getting 6 stickies, I don't feel like that would really make any difference in his effectiveness. I also don't think we should be trying to limit Demoman. He's OP, no argument here, but it's his job to be OP. And being OP in a 6v6/9v9 environment comes with the good and the bad. Demoman is one of the highest priority picks in the game. It means he'll be focused every time he sticks his head out, and most of the enemy team would happily trade their lives for his. I think Demo is just fine.

This brings me back to my first post on all this stuff. If Valve wants innovation, they need to give us the tools to do it. Minor changes to ancient unlocks aren't going to result in an entirely new meta, and neither is pumping out unlocks designed with only pubs in mind. One of my dream unlocks is a medigun with an uber that grants invisibility. The idea stems from the competitive concept of a surprise kritz. It charges faster than uber, like the kritz, and retains normal healing/overheal rates, unlike the QF, because we see that failed in competitive. It answers a lot of the complaints about excitement and class usage. Can you imagine walking an invisible Pyro into an unsuspecting combo? My point is that designing from a competitive perspective will result in weapons that actually get used in competitive. Designing for pubs means they'll probably get banned.