I agree with everyones mentality to test this and try that, yet I really doubt when it comes time to pug/play anyone is going to want to.

allow me to climb the soapbox for a second (since im short, lol):

We couldnt even get the Machina tested before being banned despite the fact that it does less damage over time, lacks the headshot + bodyshot combo, and is a straight downgrade whose only redeeming quality is the chance at clutch double kills. Players mentality needs to change. People read sniper, penetrating, and damage and jumped to conclusions without understanding the weapon.

Was the darwins danger shield really OP? Was sniper threatening to ruin the balance of 6's?

I'm not pretending I don't like sniper and want to see it used more, but I think the bans on some sniper weapons and the mentality towards the class is symptomatic of a mentality that is wildly hypocritical within our meta. I'll champion superior aim and reflexes with the rest of the comp scene, so why when an unlock that increases a sniper's survivability in lieu of close range DPS is added to the game (hullo gunboats?) do we suddenly decide we rather not see clutch aiming and picks? Headshots are exciting to watch, exciting to watch happen to your opponent, and exciting to get.

Is a darwin danger shield sniper better than a 2nd scout or 2nd soldier? No. So why is it banned? Because people want to limit the amount of times 6's breaks from cookie cutter, and a perfectly balanced unlock like the DDS does that, only it does it for the wrong class it seems...

note, I'm against something like Jarate that rewards an entire team with greater DPS just for throwing something sorta at someone

I'm speaking from a 6's viewpoint, once again.

I think targeting the sandman is a bad example. The sandman was always seen as a bad unlock because it did what valve specifically said they wanted to avoid "take control out of the players hands."

I don't think any unlock with a stun mechanic like this is going to make it past any picking process.

You can make cases for many of the weapons, but I really do not feel the sandman is one of them. The cleaver or wrap assasin (is that what the wrapping paper is called?) are similar weapons that with the proper nerfing could find a home in 6's imo since it doesn't negate the players ability to fight it's use on them. Bleeding is annoying, sure, but annoying =/= op + ban

I know we are targeting HL here, and I don't want to add to the noise but I'd like to further advance this thread along with a reminder and more cynicism...I'll try and do this chronologically

1) There was a time when the Heavy class was basically a staple of the Euro scene in 6's. Slowly this trend faded out, you would see some heavies every now and again even in NA but for the most part the heavy was abandoned. Why? Well the comp scene decided it was because of mobility. A second scout or soldier could simply get around easier. Thus passed the heavy into legend and last holds.

2) Without heavies, picking the heavy (i.e. spys and snipers) became a non-issue, and these classes saw their use greatly diminished. Now you have 3 classes suddenly receiving far less attention.

3) TF2beta is passed around privately by Robin in order to better the comp community by bettering the weapons that could potentially be used within that community. One of the primary focuses: heavy's mobility. Comp players all mashed their collective brains together and told Robin and the TF2 team that the heavy was too slow, couldnt get to middle fights in time and that's why it wasn't use.

4) Valve rolls out the GRU (gloves of running urgently) that allow the heavy the ability to run faster with his gloves out while suffering a penalty.

5) Comp community (despite any possible downside added to the weapon—there were at least 3 iterations if I remember) decides the heavy is too fast. They suddenly realize they don't want heavies at the mid fight. They haven't seen heavies in so long...450HP is a lot to kill. Whats more, now we need snipers and spies to kill this heavy, this is slowing down the pace of our game.

6) Weapon balanced by the comp community made for the comp community is banned by the comp community

7) Heavy remains a thing of legend and last holds.

8) Players now accustomed to never fighting a heavy run into it on a last hold and think "what is this thing with 450HP and insane DPS doing in my TF2"

9) Some comp players want to ban heavy.

10) Valve gives up and rebalances (buffs) the GRU for HL play.

11) Though likely viable, players refrain from using heavy as not to upset the status quot.

The moral I'm trying to get at is that we can balance away, 6's is doomed to remain what 6's is (barring inspired additions to it like the kritz/crossbow/boston basher)

Bonus story...remember when I complained for 2 seasons that the boston basher was banned while the equalizer wasn't? Remember how I would use it in scrims and people would complain? Remember how when it was finally added to comp it made the meta better? I get where Robin is coming from, but I really don't think we ought to be pressed to help balance existing weapons. We can take a 2nd look at some of them...and we ought to before every season (which we do).

The main problem with unlocks is they are not created with the comp scene in mind. Gathering data on existing unlocks to see what comp wants is one way to do it but it does not seem the best or easiest way to do it. In fact it really seems like the long way around the problem. Asking the comp scene specifically (i.e. communicating that x y and z weapons are being made in your interest how do they balance?) would be the best way, only it appears we ruined that with the GRU.

People who can't understand/dont care about the pitching mechanic and meta think baseball is boring. If you understand/like it, every pitch means something and can be exciting.

Gamers who can't understand/don't care about the uber mechanic and meta think TF2 is boring. If you understand/like it, every moment means something and can be exciting.

Shout-out to the guy who embraces the same attitude that keeps people away from this game.

I agree, but I don't believe we have to do a single thing about that. My main point is they dont really like comp. HL they like more, and HL is a nice gateway into 6's. There isn't anything more we can hope from this.

The best way to help us isnt with lobby systems it's with coverage. Spec options like dota has...that sort of thing.

also, I really don't like this idea of a game being boring when it's only about execution. Football, basketball, baseball, hockey...That is what sports are all about: execution and the moments of excellence within the ruleset. There is nothing more exciting than seeing a player split the offense and end up in a breakaway or seeing a Micahel Jordan assert his will all over the court. Same with esports. Same with Tf2. I want to see banny micro his team into a perfectly executed push into mid, or clockwork 2v1 both scouts, win, then pick the med to save a round. I do notwant to see X build triumph over Y build. That level of meta is already there...it's the classes.

What Robin seems to be saying is "I see lot's of uber stalemates, then it's just a matter of who makes a mistake." That seems more a problem with how powerful uber is in the one medic 6 player system. So I say again, I just really believe its an insurmountable problem. They don't like how ironed out 6's is. It does seem at odds with the mindset that green-lighted random crits.

Maybe I am cynical, but I don't see how a community that can't have legal classes/weapons in their practice mod without complaining, is going to come up with a list of weapons from ones already banned that they wouldnt mind testing. I also don't think people will do this testing. Maybe it was a problem with personnel, but back when Robin granted a whole bunch of invites into the then private TF2beta to test weapons, no one ever did. I tried organizing pugs in the beta all the time and no one wanted to because they felt their time was better spent playing tf2 the way they wanted (without weapons they didn't like/understand).

I also agree with Killing's post in #23.

Lastly, my cynical side wants to say that Valve knows there is this insurmountable barrier between what makes TF2 a good comp game and what makes it a fun pub game. They seem to not care much/have thrown their hands up with this issue, and then you came along and they said well here is this problem...see what you can do with it.

The hard issue is that the pub game is an inventory based role-playing fps. Pubbers generally feel aligned to a few classes they either identify with or have a cool hat for. Comp players treat classes as tools, and these two differing viewpoints are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Pub players cant understand why there aren't more pyro's and engineers, they do such good things in-game after all. Highlander softens this jump, demanding that every class has a role and gets playtime. That is way easier to swallow from someone coming from a pub who rarely see's the need to go scout or soldier, and if they do ...it's with mad-milk and a liberty launcher. Even in highlander, the players who seem to play these classes are also 6v6 players.

So my cynical self see's this as really just a nice implementation of HL on the front page. That should bring in some curious players. It will doubtfully do anything for 6v6 other than trickle up players who end up liking a competitive format.

I'm doing what with who when?

they are also going to combine book 4 and 5 for obvious reasons, don't know how many seasons they would get out of that, I think George said probably 2

amen to that ^

Stannis is the boss, too bad the show makes him look whiny and entitled most of the time.

ive been using KNhud for several months now, only switching to Iscariot last night. Was likely going to switch back but I think I'll give BX a try. Really like fog's crosshairs packed with the huds, and the hitmarker option is fun to play around with.

what are the channels i need to join, tf2.pug.na on quakenet? I never liked irc

what about chatzilla?

so which irc client should i download?