yeah well all changes are always open for discussion but the feedback I had was that players felt it was quite unusual and bizarre that the explosive damage could go through. in my opinion it's a very poor and counter-intuitive design. I can revert it back to what it was but I'm pretty sure we can figure out something better.

yuki, can you take down your dl link or update the file? that version will conflict with the one I released. don't jump the gun guys :@

edit: wow holy crap, this shit spreads way too fast :@ I can't keep up with you guys

So unfortunately my buddy Yyler has been very busy lately, so busy in fact that he can not keep up with his mapping endeavours anymore. For that reason, I have been designated to take over his duties of updating and maintaining koth_pro_viaduct and the pro version of barnblitz until further notice.

today's release is koth_pro_viaduct_rc4

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5181650/koth_pro_viaduct_rc4.bsp (bsp 36mb)
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=5390&act=down (bz2 16mb)

changes from rc3 to rc4 include: (but not limited to)

-fixed map imbalances due to rock models. all gameplay relevant rocks now obey symmetry
-fixed map imbalances related to the solidity of window models
-fixed various clipping issues
-various performance optimizations (5-10% fps increase)
-fixed catwalk metal planks not blocking explosive damage
-made the cobblestone wall easier to navigate over
-improved lighting in indoor areas for better visibility
-new unobstructive roofs for unencumbered rocket jumping

so just like that, all imbalances were gone and there was much rejoicing

I'm not sure the magic cards analogy applies very well to this. I feel like magic cards compare better to weapons whereas the maps are closer to the core ruleset of the game (win conditions etc). now of course there ain't nobody in tf2 designing weapons for comp play (man could you imagine that) but I get what you are saying. tho I don't know, maybe maps are a bit of both. this would be interesting to discuss. maybe maps are like cards, but in a broader way, certainly not on a card by card basis.

anyways, in my experience, testing for multiple formats is a great way to bring out flaws in a particular design. most of the time, those flaws exist in all the formats but are only made worst under certain conditions. accounting for all situations helps finding underlying issues that would never have been made apparent with limited conditions of testing. so you end up with a better map overall and usually without affecting other formats in any harmful ways.

and just to be clear I don't pretend I could make a better badlands (altho I did think about making a badlands_pro at some point). but either way, it's probably safe to say that badlands or any other map wouldn't be better with dynamic elements. dynamic elements sound to me like a crutch for a poor design. and most of the time, they just make things even more confusing and random for the player which just makes the design even worst.

well there you go, if you put up conditions like these, the map is not good, it's just conditionally good. yes I said it, badlands doesn't fit in the good category *hides under desk*. but what about gravelpit? what about viaduct? I think good maps transcend formats and I won't settle for less.

badlands is a pretty good map, but it has pacing issues in highlander (which most 5cp do, to be fair). so what if someone found a way to make it faster paced for highlander? the 6s community is not opposed to faster paced maps as far as I know. so what then?

If you want my take on it, you really don't need 2 versions of the same map. a good map is a good map and feedback from both format is usually valid to make the map better overall. I see no need to separate the two since 99% of the time (if the map is any good) you can accommodate both formats. Otherwise, you might want to go back to the drawing board.

I don't care if it's pub, 6s or HL. a good map is a good map. tf2 unite!

so, with all this talk of competitive tf2 being stagnant in its gameplay, I'll just say that it's cool to mess around with unlocks but there's no reason to stop there in my opinion. I'm fairly certain that voting to keep the same map rotation in Esea is a big contributing factor to the staleness as well.

cp_vanguard recently got added to the Ugc summer season so you should definitely look forward to that and even try it out yourselves. Vanguard was designed with new, fast paced strats and meta game in mind. as an example, if you want to do things like running quickfix, there's no better places to do it (you might be pleasantly surprised). With all that in mind, I invite everyone to try out not just this maps, but any other map you can find. keep it fresh boys.

ps: and please, for the love of god, think before voting in the exact same map rotation again. (and don't tell me there were no good alternatives, alternatives are only as good as you can make them).

give ploxo a break, I pretty much agree with him for the most part. I really wish we could have unfiltered feedback but this topic is not doing great for my hopes. don't blow things out of proportion guys.

all I'm going to say is, good maps don't happen if no one tests bad maps.
pretty much every good map started as a bad map so there you go. playtesting of bad maps is needed and changes need to happen.

Just something I want to touch briefly here: I know the term "beta" is being used in all sorts of ridiculous ways nowadays. gamedevs use the term "beta" when in reality, it's just a "demo" with all gameplay elements set in stone. If you test a tf2 map in beta, then it's not a demo, it's not a preview of what's to come, it's a work in progress, it's for playtests to happen and to find the things that need to be changed. The map will change and you should be happy about the changes implemented because it means the map is getting better based on the feedback you helped to provide during testing. If a map doesn't get better after playtesting, you're playtesting wrong (unless the map is just really that good).

I probably shouldn't have gone on this rant but w/e. I really can't stress this enough, you are required to play bad maps to get good maps and all maps need to change at some point, embrace those changes. Every map can be made better with the right changes. all bad maps can be made good with the right amount of playtesting.

on badlands too, both on mid and 2nd point but that doesn't make it intentional

this is my go to source for older map versions http://maps.rotabland.eu/maps.php
It doesn't have everything but it's still pretty impressive

just going to point out that vanguard is not only a cp map but also a pretty good koth. It got some extensive testing back when scorpio was running the new map pugs and it held up quite nicely. So if the cp version is deemed unready, I feel like the koth version is a pretty solid alternative and if that can help shape up the cp version in the future, that's a win-win right there.
I'm not even going to hide my bias but I'm just sayin.
there's also been some interest about the map on the ugc front. so you might want to check it out before it slips away and become a highlander exclusive map.

that's all very valid feedback, thanks for checking out the map.
I'm sorry for any frustration caused by the inaccessible platforms. they are meant to be pleasing to the eye but I see where they can interfere with gameplay. I might need to remove some or find a way to make things clearer.

I have been thinking about the hiding spot on screen above last for a while now. I'm not yet sure what I want to do with it but I've been thinking about making it less hollow and so, to make anyone standing there more exposed. adding something for scouts to get up there is also a possibility

as for the fence you requested, I quite like the look it has at the moment but I guess I can add in a fence to make sure no rockets or pipes gets lost.

you're probably getting that vibe from the skybox. I can count on one hand the maps that use this skybox texture and snakewater is one of those.