Increase spread to reward aggression and bombs etc or increase falloff to do the same thing

please don't include drudgery for the forseeable future, it should be at least another week before I get out a new version, I think I have enough to work on for now, so I would prefer it if other upcoming maps got their chances :)

For the first point I think I agree? I think the 'side' is the right size, but the front I guess, can be reduced. I think that should probably happen, no use to have that space anyway since it's meant to reward aggression, so the extra space standing in choke is useless. I originally left that space as medics complained a lot about double jumps and no room to play, however that was before tetris was added. This will be changed.

The rest of them are very entertwined. The problem is such:-

In order to have a situation where stalemates on last don't last forever, there MUST be a high conversion rate from a correct push into last.
Then, you have to punish the attackers heavily if they manage to screw up.
The solution, from my eyes, is clear -> the map should favor a blands style forward hold. This allows teams to push out, and allows teams to push in. This solution SHOULD work, because forward holds are easily breakable. This I discussed a few posts up about how to attack last. The implication afterwards is hopefully on failed forward hold break, free 2nd for defenders.

Then, the 2nd hold has to be strong as. In the case it isn't, the defenders must immediately go back to lobby. Assuming you lose 2 on 2nd defence, you lose lobby immediately, therefore you lost last, in theory. Therefore it should work as a gamble, commit to 2nd and risk losing a round, or just force, go to lobby and attempt a push out later. Even though it's a strong position, it's hard to leave from.

Now, the problem turns out the solution isn't good, for whatever reason, people either don't find it fun or it's just not working somehow. I can't really figure out why it's not working the way I planned it, and the issue is the majority of the map breaks when this is either not working or unfun. The entire map is based around that idea.

To summarise

• I will 100% shrink mid, lengthwise.
  
• I will raise the cap time of 2nd, from 5 seconds, to 6.5 or maybe 7.
  
• As I rebuild last, I will definitely be making sure that the shutter side has some more interesting features and areas to play in.

Thank you very much for the feedback.

Alright, this is my final call for feedback. I've got a small list that I'm working on in the OP. This is the main takeaway I got from twitch and the various testing thingies.

Thanks again

(thank you hyce, didn't see this while I was typing :)

I will definitely be making changes to the original chokes. Thank you)

very disappointed to see drudgery rated this poorly, definitely stings, especially after the lovely twitch comments, but I'm really truly thankful for the statistics, I was honestly under this odd impression that I'd made something "different" and once it got out of a pug setting people would suddenly "get it" if you know what I mean. I can accept now that it's just subpar, and that's the way it is. It's hard to hear that, but I did need it, definitely.

I think the plan now for me is a final rebuild of the entire thing before I cut my losses completely, I think it'd be nice for me to be able to say it's done, so I need to do a full optimisation and detail pass- I might as well improve it to the best of my abilities while I do that and take some of the advice given. If you have any strong feelings about improvements, I would still love to hear about it.

Thanks all who played my map, even if it didn't turn out the way I hoped, it was a great learning experience. I know it sounds really soppy and weird, but it's hard not to be a little emotional about it.. I'll try to do better next time :--)

really excited to see some organised gameplay on my map for sure, especially if it turns out to be top level, unless every team decides to ban it of course.... :--)

best of luck to all the teams, if you do end up playing drudgery, please feel free to take a look on the thread, it's got some design insight that might help you create some mids/some last pushes or defense (main advantage is to hold forward on last!) Plus I'm also always looking for feedback

Best of luck to all teams, but especially to the non-invite underdogs

Badlands
Gully
Snake
Viaduct
Granary
Reckoner
Process
Sunshine
Metalworks

it's core that you can't get up there, I am gonna put a fence that shows that you can't get up, since this seems to be reoccurring

next version doesn't have a shutter there anymore, so no problem now

thank you for hosting lobbies on my map :D

Its a public forum if you don't want to read complaints just don't read them! You have no right to post your opinion xD

I could swear there's a liquid hots team?

regardless, all exposure for tf2 is good exposure.

good changes, hope to see it again this weekend

I feel like it's way too hard to defend in general. I've not played a game so far where the attackers don't roll the cart, it's actually really rare for the cart to ever stop really, you can take so much position in the time it takes the enemies to respawn that the rest of the map ends up just being dead space a lot of the time.

It's a bit of an issue because the majority of the gameplay tends to be around both the spawns. I think the defenders could use a base respawn buff.

thank you for including my map I appreciate it

The format sucks
In EU we play attack, defend then defend, attack. Then if its a draw we play another round

It takes like an hour

Nobody pugs it because its not a good pug map in general and nobody wants to pug one map for an hour
Nobody scrims it because you can scrim 2 other maps in the same time so why bother

I would still like to get some more feedback if there's room for drudgery, but of course I understand if there's better/less tested maps around :)