It has to do with the nature of sticky traps and spam, not the power level of the class.

It's well-known how hard it is to push into second/mid from last/second in 6s as-is against a team parking the bus. With 2 demos it's basically building a house, not parking a bus.

The game would definitely be faster if demo were nerfed. We could also ban heavy and engineer to make the game faster. Really we should be playing 6v6 scout only to get the fastest most aggressive gameplay possible.

i fail to see the distinction

you've highlighted a symptom yourself

Demos will almost always outdamage every other class, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll outfrag everyone. Soldiers are the go-to class to make great picks (Med/Demo), but that doesn't mean they'll outfrag/outdamage every other class. Scouts will likely outfrag every other class, but that doesn't mean they'll make picks/outdamage every one. This is literally a love triangle of how each class compliments one another. Half of DM is avoiding damage which pubbers suck at (W+M1), which is why they bitch and complain.

The game's perfectly balanced. Demo works perfectly in 6s because there aren't as many one-class restrictions (only Demo, Medic, Engy & Heavy) and two everything else, so the players have the freedom to choose the best class in any situation. I bet you if HL was the same way, it would be way more fun/balanced. There are so many opportunities cost of switching off any pick class to Scout/Soldier. Even if your Spy became your second Scout/Soldier, now you lose great intel on the enemy's position, guaranteed uber %, and easy bullying against the Engy/Sniper/Heavy. Just let the players decide what works for them, restrictions inhibit players finding the perfect balance.

Every time I read these discussions its just different class mains talking about how OP or easy the classes they dont main are despite all evidence to the contrary.

I for one want demo to be nerfed so I can then whine all day and feel justified in calling other classes fucking easy.

if you actually want tf2 to be 'faster' remove the invulnerability from ubers and change it to % based damage reduction.

nothings gonna get changed though so the argument isnt even really worth having

Scout is easy, all you have to do is point and click.

soldier is easier, you don't even have to point directly at the enemy before clicking

Demo is even easier than that, you just aim up and in the general direction of enemies and click

Medic is easiest of all, the things you're clicking on want to be clicked so they stand still for you

tf2 balance discussions

Steps to making game "as fast as possible":

1. take out medic, make all hp packs large (ubers are super boring)
2. take out demo; stickies are no fun
3. all soldiers must run gunboats and be able to do fast rollout or else (even on process!)
4. scouts must run baby face blaster for maximum speed
5. every point caps like badlands last

(fast ≠ fun)

Everyone should keep in mind, demo "works" in 6v6 because you have 2 scouts and 2 soldiers per team, and no defensive classes most of the time aside from the demo himself. In HL, between heavies and engies, its extremely difficult to close the gap on a demo (or sniper for that matter).

But then you talk about changing heavies and engies and people have a panic attack.

pub tf2 is broken, but valve seems unwilling to fix it.

when dming scout>demo soldier>demo
when spamming demo>scout demo>soldier
math

But you have a spy, sniper, soldier, and scout all that can pick or close the gap with the demo. Its much harder to close the gap into an Engineer than a demo. Pick classes and having both scout and soldier effectively negate the extra protection of defensive classes. Plus the stupid class that is pyro that can just negate almost all of demos damage at a distance.

If the demo is staying alive all the time in HL then his team is just way better than the opponents anyways.

I think you misunderstood. Those classes that close the gap or flank CANT because the heavy engie and pyro are so strong at close range, but are bad at attacking themselves. This puts them in defensive roles leaving the demo free to get damage on the other enemy demo-medic-heavy combo.

Well considering that a team with solid aggression can always manage to work past defensive classes and kill them at mid range seems like a point you missed. Plus there are still both spies and snipers which can easily pick both defensive classes and the demo/medic combo.

At the end of the day the demo is only strong as long as he is protected. But there are a plethora of classes in HL whose sole roles are to destroy or circumvent his protection.

Teamwork is what makes a demo OP, not the class.

I don't know if you're being serious, but how do you suggest Gully last over the cap time of Badlands last???

Indust

Well, its no mistake that demo and medic are OP.

who?

At this point I'm forced to assume you think the game functions by players walking in straight lines at a demo and medic never dodging, attempting to flank, or use teamwork.

Wtf demo is the most powerful class. A change in demos can make or break a team. A good player on demo is more dangerous than a good player on any other class.

A good demo with a team that plays like headless chickens is going to have as much impact as a wet noodle.

Oh yes, my bad! Edited to reflect even more fastness.

demo is too strong. limited to 1 demo per team, the 6s meta "accepts" that demo is too good and the whole team kinda plays around him.

In highlander or pubs or even MvM, demo is THE strongest class. Sniper is right up there because in HL and pubs, defensive classes make his weakness irrelevant if he can position himself.

IDK how you can nerf sniper in pubs without making the class unfun, but I'd like to have highlander not involve standing where the sniper can't see you 24/7 and getting body shot when you try to push, or you pop so early the uber is useless. When people use it in 6s, I have much less fun, yet I do it myself because it's so effective to drop someone on their way into last

lol stickies.

Not at all. Generally when you're pusing any point you have at least 2 points of entry, sometimes 3, generally one area is more cluttered than other (ie: Gully big door vs gully choke). Demo gives u the most area control but if you only have one demo you can only hold one of these points of entry with him, if you have 2 it's a whole other story where the games kinda becomes unplayable because you can hold the majority of the pushing routes with him.

Nerfing the demo wouldn't work as we saw already this year, not enough entry damage for the fragging classes to follow up which consequently has the opposite effect and actually slows down the game more.

So yeah, it's not the same logic, Demo is not OP, it's a fine balance and 1 limit demo as it is at the moment is perfect, anything more or less would have a huge impact for the worse.

what

ignoring the fact that everyone had less than a week to adjust to a balance patch in a game that's been more or less unchanged at its core in 7 years, what you're saying just straight up isn't true

Demoknight dabes

Why is this always a race to the bottom for everything???

Sniper has existed in some form or another in literally every FPS yet now the simple fact of someone having good aim is overpowered because "my favorite class that refelcts all projectiles/builds things that aim for me can't kill him 24/7".

Yeah the sniper class exists, yeah good aim exists, you have to plan accordingly instead of just gimping every class that presents a modicum of effort to counter when it has a million weaknesses to exploit.

I will say though that taking away the ability for snipers to charge shots would make them less annoying. It should solely be based on aim and not the ability to stare at a wall charging a shot until you can peek one shot a medic.

I just wish stickies were a little brighter, easier to see. Sometimes they are on the ground and very hard to spot because their color doesn't pop. And no, not talking about glowing or being neon, just a little more noticeable when in plain site.

The problem with nerfing demo is that it's like a rusty nail holding TF2 together. Sure, if you look at it itself, demo is really overpowered, but the fact of the matter is that stickies are kind of a double edged sword as far as game speed goes.

Without traps small teams wouldn't need much cohesion, without stickyspam large teams' passive play would be incredibly overpowered, and if either of them were weakened enough to stop being "annoying" then all of the game's other problems would come to the forefront in massive blatancy.

Stickies are like the medigun. They're one of the handful of things that make the entire rest of the game tick. This game could definitely use a lot lot of balance changes but picking out one thing at this particular stage doesn't make any sense.

Ya. Stickies and ubers are a bandaid solution.