https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGTOYDIwCFo
A lot of people mention that the stock pipes are "less consistent" because they tumble through the air. This video and its description have a very detailed explanation of why this is not the case, the Iron bomber and stock pipes have the exact same projectile arc. The only difference is the fuse time and rollers.
Basically there are 2 things that make pipe launchers have "inconsistent" arcs.
1. Pipes are given a random amount of velocity when shot (within a range)
2. Pipes are given a random amount of spin when shot.
These are the same on all pipe launchers (except for the loch n load which doesn't spin) and if all of them had the same stats, they would all be exactly the same if it wasn't for VPhysics models.
The VPhysics model is what people talk about when they say the Grenade Launcher is "more inconsistent" with respect to its air arc. The source engine simulates drag, and so projectiles with a larger surface area to their model will be slowed down more in the air and travel slower. This happens with loose cannon projectiles which get slowed down more because they're big, so they go slower than they're supposed to.
In theory, the Iron Bomber's arc should be different to the Grenade Launcher's arc even when the random spin and velocity are disabled, because the projectiles are different sizes and shapes. However, this video shows that the Iron Bomber and Grenade Launcher actually have projectiles that fall in the exact same spot every time when these things are disabled. This is because the physics model for the iron bomber is actually a cylinder the same as the stock pipes. So iron bomber pills tumble in the air and experience the same orientation dependent drag that pipes do.
The sigsegv video that a lot of people reference when talking about this actually shows stock pipes and iron bomber landing at very similar positions.
Edit: It seems that the Grenade Launcher and Iron Bomber behave differently with respect to how their models interact with their collision hulls, effectively giving the Iron bomber a bigger "hitbox" see: https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1008432/iron-bomber-regular-pipes-have-the-same-physics
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGTOYDIwCFo[/youtube]
A lot of people mention that the stock pipes are "less consistent" because they tumble through the air. This video and its description have a very detailed explanation of why this is not the case, the Iron bomber and stock pipes have the exact same projectile arc. The only difference is the fuse time and rollers.
Basically there are 2 things that make pipe launchers have "inconsistent" arcs.
1. Pipes are given a random amount of velocity when shot (within a range)
2. Pipes are given a random amount of spin when shot.
These are the same on all pipe launchers (except for the loch n load which doesn't spin) and if all of them had the same stats, they would all be exactly the same if it wasn't for VPhysics models.
The VPhysics model is what people talk about when they say the Grenade Launcher is "more inconsistent" with respect to its air arc. The source engine simulates drag, and so projectiles with a larger surface area to their model will be slowed down more in the air and travel slower. This happens with loose cannon projectiles which get slowed down more because they're big, so they go slower than they're supposed to.
In theory, the Iron Bomber's arc should be different to the Grenade Launcher's arc even when the random spin and velocity are disabled, because the projectiles are different sizes and shapes. However, this video shows that the Iron Bomber and Grenade Launcher actually have projectiles that fall in the exact same spot every time when these things are disabled. This is because the physics model for the iron bomber is actually a cylinder the same as the stock pipes. So iron bomber pills tumble in the air and experience the same orientation dependent drag that pipes do.
The [url=https://youtu.be/ACfafLuLmy8?t=120]sigsegv video[/url] that a lot of people reference when talking about this actually shows stock pipes and iron bomber landing at very similar positions.
Edit: It seems that the Grenade Launcher and Iron Bomber behave differently with respect to how their models interact with their collision hulls, effectively giving the Iron bomber a bigger "hitbox" see: https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1008432/iron-bomber-regular-pipes-have-the-same-physics
About time the fact came out.
About time the fact came out.
why do i suck less ass with the iron bomber then
why do i suck less ass with the iron bomber then
Phantomwhy do i suck less ass with the iron bomber then
It's smaller and doesn't have as much colour to it, so it takes extra ms to register and react to it
[quote=Phantom]why do i suck less ass with the iron bomber then[/quote]
It's smaller and doesn't have as much colour to it, so it takes extra ms to register and react to it
this is extremely lazy video but i am not smart enough to do a proper video about it however there is a difference between how the projectiles of stock and iron bomber detonate
https://youtu.be/cWTqs9CDm8c
you can see that the stock pipes contact with the projectile hitbox really irregularly where as any contact of the hitbox and iron bomber sets it off
would be cool if any smarter person in this community decided to take a look at how the actual hitboxes of the projectiles look like
this is extremely lazy video but i am not smart enough to do a proper video about it however there is a difference between how the projectiles of stock and iron bomber detonate
https://youtu.be/cWTqs9CDm8c
you can see that the stock pipes contact with the projectile hitbox really irregularly where as any contact of the hitbox and iron bomber sets it off
would be cool if any smarter person in this community decided to take a look at how the actual hitboxes of the projectiles look like
iron bomber for sucking demo
iron bomber for sucking demo
jorskihttps://youtu.be/cWTqs9CDm8c
you can see that the stock pipes contact with the projectile hitbox really irregularly where as any contact of the hitbox and iron bomber sets it off
here's something extremely confusing: the iron bomber is actually easier to land direct hits with, even though it has the same trajectory as stock
firing at the same angle, randomness removed:
stock:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/749928772144201728/2020-08-31_17-32-11.mp4
iron bomber:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/749928824510218250/2020-08-31_17-32-52.mp4
more confusion, here's the loose cannon, watch as how the cannonballs just miss when the model clearly intersects with the collision hull:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/749928774358794350/2020-08-31_17-33-58.mp4
it seems grenades need their centre point to intersect with a player's collision hull to be considered as a direct hit, but the iron bomber is a strange exception (more reason to not use stock lol) edit: read #17
[quote=jorski]https://youtu.be/cWTqs9CDm8c
you can see that the stock pipes contact with the projectile hitbox really irregularly where as any contact of the hitbox and iron bomber sets it off[/quote]
here's something extremely confusing: the iron bomber is actually easier to land direct hits with, even though it has the same trajectory as stock
firing at the same angle, randomness removed:
stock:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/749928772144201728/2020-08-31_17-32-11.mp4
iron bomber:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/749928824510218250/2020-08-31_17-32-52.mp4
more confusion, here's the loose cannon, watch as how the cannonballs just miss when the model clearly intersects with the collision hull:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/749928774358794350/2020-08-31_17-33-58.mp4
[s]it seems grenades need their centre point to intersect with a player's collision hull to be considered as a direct hit, but the iron bomber is a strange exception (more reason to not use stock lol)[/s] edit: read #17
Hmm that seems like a bug. If the Iron Bomber has a special attribute to change its the collision and physics model to be the same as stock, they're probably intended to have the same hitboxes right? Might be something worth playing around with in that mastercoms mod either toggling so the iron bomber has the same behaviour as other grenade launchers or all grenade launchers have the same behaviour as the iron bomber.
Hmm that seems like a bug. If the Iron Bomber has a special attribute to change its the collision and physics model to be the same as stock, they're probably intended to have the same hitboxes right? Might be something worth playing around with in that mastercoms mod either toggling so the iron bomber has the same behaviour as other grenade launchers or all grenade launchers have the same behaviour as the iron bomber.
well now we know why everyone is a beast with the iron bomber
well now we know why everyone is a beast with the iron bomber
lmao why even use grenade launcher
But seriously btw: I wonder if the grenade launcher has always been like this or if they screwed it up somewhere in an update.
lmao why even use grenade launcher
But seriously btw: I wonder if the grenade launcher has always been like this or if they screwed it up somewhere in an update.
Aubriacwords
yes, it wasnt always like that and they fucked it up
hell even rockets were much better years back
[quote=Aubriac]words[/quote]
yes, it wasnt always like that and they fucked it up
hell even rockets were much better years back
only good cuz of iron bombe
only good cuz of iron bombe
The iron bomber is better because it sounds cooler
The iron bomber is better because it sounds cooler
ZestyHmm that seems like a bug. If the Iron Bomber has a special attribute to change its the collision and physics model to be the same as stock, they're probably intended to have the same hitboxes right? Might be something worth playing around with in that mastercoms mod either toggling so the iron bomber has the same behaviour as other grenade launchers or all grenade launchers have the same behaviour as the iron bomber.
some more testing:
- grenades use a 4x4x4 box for collision with players
- the jar projectiles also use this box (they're grenade-based so it's not really surprising)
- the iron bomber instead uses a 8.75x8.75x7.7142 box
comparison: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/750007009432043657/unknown.png
out of curiousity, i changed the iron bomber's projectile in the same manner as how loose cannon's projectile is changed (so it affects its physics model), this made it use the 4x4x4 collision box against players and also since the physics is changed, it now rolls straight down ramps and travels a lot slower than stock grenades (a tumbling sphere is apparently less aerodynamic than a tumbling cylinder)
[quote=Zesty]Hmm that seems like a bug. If the Iron Bomber has a special attribute to change its the collision and physics model to be the same as stock, they're probably intended to have the same hitboxes right? Might be something worth playing around with in that mastercoms mod either toggling so the iron bomber has the same behaviour as other grenade launchers or all grenade launchers have the same behaviour as the iron bomber.[/quote]
some more testing:
- grenades use a 4x4x4 box for collision with players
- the jar projectiles also use this box (they're grenade-based so it's not really surprising)
- the iron bomber instead uses a 8.75x8.75x7.7142 box
comparison: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/750007009432043657/unknown.png
out of curiousity, i changed the iron bomber's projectile in the same manner as how loose cannon's projectile is changed (so it affects its physics model), this made it use the 4x4x4 collision box against players and also since the physics is changed, it now rolls straight down ramps and travels a lot slower than stock grenades (a tumbling sphere is apparently less aerodynamic than a tumbling cylinder)
stock looks and sounds so much cooler and is so oldschool :D
stock looks and sounds so much cooler and is so oldschool :D
so the physics are the same but iron bomber projectiles connect with hitboxes more reliably?
so the physics are the same but iron bomber projectiles connect with hitboxes more reliably?
does it also have a greater hitbox? i feel like it hits even when it misses, as in it hits even when i see it go passed me
does it also have a greater hitbox? i feel like it hits even when it misses, as in it hits even when i see it go passed me
These are some great findings, anyway of making them reach valve for a possible fix since they've been fixing small things here and there? It's really silly that the iron bomber is easier to hit because of something that isn't even reflected in the weapon stats.
These are some great findings, anyway of making them reach valve for a possible fix since they've been fixing small things here and there? It's really silly that the iron bomber is easier to hit because of something that isn't even reflected in the weapon stats.
4hpIt's really silly that the iron bomber is easier to hit because of something that isn't even reflected in the weapon stats.
You're right, it's dumb they don't say anything about it in the weapon description.
However, I've been yelling for years something was up with the weapon (and that's just out of experience of playing with it and against it), but so many people I talked with either didn't believe me since I had no proof (and I don't have the skills like Jane to prove it) or didn't give a damn and called me a fucking retard. They just claimed it's the small projectile that makes it "more consistent" or that it's all placebo or something.
And I'm not some sort of chosen one who's the only one who can see that gun is straight up better than stock, any demo at a decent level should've been able to notice it. But instead people kept quiet about it and claimed there were other small factors playing a roll.
LUKASTANKonly good cuz of iron bombe
I know you're memeing, but I don't wanna make this look like I'm shitting on the skills of other demo's that use IB. There's still plenty of demo's out there that would still perform excellent even if they didn't use the weapon. I just don't like that a lot of people didn't want to admit that it gives them an advantage over stock and then shat on me for bringing it up.
[quote=4hp]It's really silly that the iron bomber is easier to hit because of something that isn't even reflected in the weapon stats.[/quote]
You're right, it's dumb they don't say anything about it in the weapon description.
However, I've been yelling for years something was up with the weapon (and that's just out of experience of playing with it and against it), but so many people I talked with either didn't believe me since I had no proof (and I don't have the skills like Jane to prove it) or didn't give a damn and called me a fucking retard. They just claimed it's the small projectile that makes it "more consistent" or that it's all placebo or something.
And I'm not some sort of chosen one who's the only one who can see that gun is straight up better than stock, any demo at a decent level should've been able to notice it. But instead people kept quiet about it and claimed there were other small factors playing a roll.
[quote=LUKASTANK]only good cuz of iron bombe[/quote]
I know you're memeing, but I don't wanna make this look like I'm shitting on the skills of other demo's that use IB. There's still plenty of demo's out there that would still perform excellent even if they didn't use the weapon. I just don't like that a lot of people didn't want to admit that it gives them an advantage over stock and then shat on me for bringing it up.
but guys stock must be just as good as the iron bomber because that's what b4nny said on his stream
but guys stock must be just as good as the iron bomber because that's what b4nny said on his stream
so which one should i use
so which one should i use
so should stock have the bomber hitbox or vice versa
so should stock have the bomber hitbox or vice versa
toads_tfso should stock have the bomber hitbox or vice versa
vice versa
[quote=toads_tf]so should stock have the bomber hitbox or vice versa[/quote]
vice versa
i cant belive it, alfredodan was right all along.
i cant belive it, alfredodan was right all along.
I'm confident the weapon is fun to use and ideally what the standard should be for him, consistency is key in competition and the testing Jane did between all three has confirmed what I have felt over the recent year or so I started playing again, despite all that it just doesn't seem right.
The grenade launcher should have these qualities already and the difference should actually be the ROLLERS, so demos can run one on long spam areas, like sunshine choke to second, or clearcut valley to point, then for closer maps, our hypothetical demo could go back to what is better suited for fighting people close range where that extra 30 damage is critical.
Right now it's really just if you're not using it, you are missing out on an advantage.
I'm confident the weapon is fun to use and ideally what the standard should be for him, consistency is key in competition and the testing Jane did between all three has confirmed what I have felt over the recent year or so I started playing again, despite all that it just doesn't seem right.
The grenade launcher should have these qualities already and the difference should actually be the ROLLERS, so demos can run one on long spam areas, like sunshine choke to second, or clearcut valley to point, then for closer maps, our hypothetical demo could go back to what is better suited for fighting people close range where that extra 30 damage is critical.
Right now it's really just if you're not using it, you are missing out on an advantage.
its a fine wep that overcomes the issues of the stock but i do feel that it should touch your model to hit
its a fine wep that overcomes the issues of the stock but i do feel that it should touch your model to hit