I understand the reasoning behind sticking to IRC for pugs. It creates a sort of technical barrier that keeps casual players away, so that more competitive players can keep it to themselves and maintain a higher level of play. I think that's perfectly fine. But at the same time, I think this is also a barrier that keeps players away from comp TF2.
Right now tf2lobby is the go-to place for lower level pseudo-pugs because it's what most people know about and it's easy to add up. But there's no sense of teamwork or community whatsoever, because there's no mumble and nobody really knows anyone else. Even worse, this allows people to add up and troll with almost no consequence.
Crit-Fail has a beautiful web UI for putting pugs together. It's so easy to add up and join mumble and just pug. It crushes that technical barrier and makes it accessible to anyone. So of course they're going to be lower level pugs, but isn't that what this community wants in order to grow?
I'd like to create something very similar for the pub community that I like to play with, and I'd love to see it spread to other communities as well. I like to play 6v6, but I want to make it easy for my friends to play a competitive format without them having to commit to a team or learn how to IRC or put up with the jerks at tf2lobby.
Also, I know IRC isn't that hard, but to the uninitiated the wall of text and bots can be a bit intimidating.
Edit: guys at CF, can I please see your source code?
I understand the reasoning behind sticking to IRC for pugs. It creates a sort of technical barrier that keeps casual players away, so that more competitive players can keep it to themselves and maintain a higher level of play. I think that's perfectly fine. But at the same time, I think this is also a barrier that keeps players away from comp TF2.
Right now tf2lobby is the go-to place for lower level pseudo-pugs because it's what most people know about and it's easy to add up. But there's no sense of teamwork or community whatsoever, because there's no mumble and nobody really knows anyone else. Even worse, this allows people to add up and troll with almost no consequence.
Crit-Fail has a beautiful web UI for putting pugs together. It's so easy to add up and join mumble and just pug. It crushes that technical barrier and makes it accessible to anyone. So of course they're going to be lower level pugs, but isn't that what this community wants in order to grow?
I'd like to create something very similar for the pub community that I like to play with, and I'd love to see it spread to other communities as well. I like to play 6v6, but I want to make it easy for my friends to play a competitive format without them having to commit to a team or learn how to IRC or put up with the jerks at tf2lobby.
Also, I know IRC isn't that hard, but to the uninitiated the wall of text and bots can be a bit intimidating.
Edit: guys at CF, can I please see your source code?
Check out the EU-Version of a web based pickup. Take it as inspiration perhaps. It is not perfect but it does it's job most of the time. (tf2pickup.net)
But generally I think webbased pickup is the right way forward. And as long as it's moderated well there is nothing that stands in the way of an enjoyable and active pickup.
Check out the EU-Version of a web based pickup. Take it as inspiration perhaps. It is not perfect but it does it's job most of the time. ([url=www.tf2pickup.net]tf2pickup.net[/url])
But generally I think webbased pickup is the right way forward. And as long as it's moderated well there is nothing that stands in the way of an enjoyable and active pickup.
there's sort of a reason why newbie mixes exist: an easy way to get people into the comp format at a low level
and honestly irc is so ridiculously easy to learn, though i do admit it takes a little bit to adjust to
there's sort of a reason why newbie mixes exist: an easy way to get people into the comp format at a low level
and honestly irc is so ridiculously easy to learn, though i do admit it takes a little bit to adjust to
This does sound good, but it's far outside of my technical know-how. What I'm suggesting, though, isn't a replacement for IRC, but a GUI based PUG system that can be implemented in any given community, in order to create greater awareness and mitigate the perception that one has to be a top-tier player in order to play 6v6.
This does sound good, but it's far outside of my technical know-how. What I'm suggesting, though, isn't a replacement for IRC, but a GUI based PUG system that can be implemented in any given community, in order to create greater awareness and mitigate the perception that one has to be a top-tier player in order to play 6v6.
if you can't figure out how to use irc then TF2 will be too hard for you
if you can't figure out how to use irc then TF2 will be too hard for you
What Lange said.
The only question I would have is, once someone signs up for the PUG through the website GUI, how would the IRC bot go about adding another user to the IRC channel with the correct name? Maybe if you could make an alias for yourself like on TF.TV, so once you log in with your Steam, it recognizes you and gives you the alias? I guess finding how the two would 'mirror' each other would be the hardest thing in my opinion.
Possible Pros:
-User friendly
-Could be easier to promote
-Would actually help hide your IP in IRC (since you wouldn't actually be in it)
Possible Cons:
-Would people still IDLE in IRC?
-Too tired to think of any others
What Lange said.
The only question I would have is, once someone signs up for the PUG through the website GUI, how would the IRC bot go about adding another user to the IRC channel with the correct name? Maybe if you could make an alias for yourself like on TF.TV, so once you log in with your Steam, it recognizes you and gives you the alias? I guess finding how the two would 'mirror' each other would be the hardest thing in my opinion.
Possible Pros:
-User friendly
-Could be easier to promote
-Would actually help hide your IP in IRC (since you wouldn't actually be in it)
Possible Cons:
-Would people still IDLE in IRC?
-Too tired to think of any others
I've never played any IRC pugs just because IRC scares me with all it's complexity and my not giving a shit enough to bother learning it.
I've never played any IRC pugs just because IRC scares me with all it's complexity and my not giving a shit enough to bother learning it.
Lange
The system I envision would be a completely abstracted frontend for IRC pug networks. It would be GUI-driven, completely hiding the fact that it is talking to an IRC bot/server. This would make it appealing and easy to use for newcomers, while still letting oldschool players bypass it entirely and keep connecting directly to the channel as they are used to doing.
Why should the website be a front end for IRC? Surely it would be much cleaner to make IRC AND the website a front end for a pickup bot.
[quote=Lange]
The system I envision would be a completely abstracted frontend for IRC pug networks. It would be GUI-driven, completely hiding the fact that it is talking to an IRC bot/server. This would make it appealing and easy to use for newcomers, while still letting oldschool players bypass it entirely and keep connecting directly to the channel as they are used to doing.
[/quote]
Why should the website be a front end for IRC? Surely it would be much cleaner to make IRC AND the website a front end for a pickup bot.
Not_MatlockI've never played any IRC pugs just because IRC scares me with all it's complexity and my not giving a shit enough to bother learning it.
theres nothing hard about irc pugs
literally nothing
[quote=Not_Matlock]I've never played any IRC pugs just because IRC scares me with all it's complexity and my not giving a shit enough to bother learning it.[/quote]
theres nothing hard about irc pugs
literally nothing
KissmeWhat Lange said.
The only question I would have is, once someone signs up for the PUG through the website GUI, how would the IRC bot go about adding another user to the IRC channel with the correct name? Maybe if you could make an alias for yourself like on TF.TV, so once you log in with your Steam, it recognizes you and gives you the alias? I guess finding how the two would 'mirror' each other would be the hardest thing in my opinion.
You could have someone sign in through steam, set an alias and then join the irc channel under that alias
and if they want to play they can fill out checkboxes on what classes they want to play, then it sends the !add command with the classes.
to see which classes are already added you could have the pug bot send a parsable string and do that client side in the browser
[quote=Kissme]What Lange said.
The only question I would have is, once someone signs up for the PUG through the website GUI, how would the IRC bot go about adding another user to the IRC channel with the correct name? Maybe if you could make an alias for yourself like on TF.TV, so once you log in with your Steam, it recognizes you and gives you the alias? I guess finding how the two would 'mirror' each other would be the hardest thing in my opinion.[/quote]
You could have someone sign in through steam, set an alias and then join the irc channel under that alias
and if they want to play they can fill out checkboxes on what classes they want to play, then it sends the !add command with the classes.
to see which classes are already added you could have the pug bot send a parsable string and do that client side in the browser
IRC is dead as a frontend. I disagree with Lange that you need to respect the old timers. The popularity of tf2pickup seems to show that people will rapidly adopt the best solution. You could replace all pickups and tf2lobby in one go if you did it right.
IRC is dead as a frontend. I disagree with Lange that you need to respect the old timers. The popularity of tf2pickup seems to show that people will rapidly adopt the best solution. You could replace all pickups and tf2lobby in one go if you did it right.
fraacIRC is dead as a frontend. I disagree with Lange that you need to respect the old timers. The popularity of tf2pickup seems to show that people will rapidly adopt the best solution. You could replace all pickups and tf2lobby in one go if you did it right.
The problem I see with using a multi-skill leveled site like tf2pick.net is that it mixes the lower level players with the high level players.It's like mixing someone from a mid ugc 6s silver team and a mid esea IM team into one setting, doesn't make any sense.
So the high level players will want to use irc anyway or just make inhouse pugs with their friends for a higher level experience. Tf2pickup.net is like tf2lobby but with mumble, its great for newer players but whats the point for older more experienced players?
[quote=fraac]IRC is dead as a frontend. I disagree with Lange that you need to respect the old timers. The popularity of tf2pickup seems to show that people will rapidly adopt the best solution. You could replace all pickups and tf2lobby in one go if you did it right.[/quote]
The problem I see with using a multi-skill leveled site like tf2pick.net is that it mixes the lower level players with the high level players.It's like mixing someone from a mid ugc 6s silver team and a mid esea IM team into one setting, doesn't make any sense.
So the high level players will want to use irc anyway or just make inhouse pugs with their friends for a higher level experience. Tf2pickup.net is like tf2lobby but with mumble, its great for newer players but whats the point for older more experienced players?
That's easy to fix, you just add skill classes. An attractive site would be busy enough for several concurrent PUGs.
That's easy to fix, you just add skill classes. An attractive site would be busy enough for several concurrent PUGs.
a lot of people that have trouble with irc will find setting up mumble impossible (source: new players on pug.na and pug.nahl)
i find that atf2 helped a ton in bringing easier access to the irc channels, but we can't really find a good alternative to mumble that makes it easier to install/set up for newer players besides praying they look up a guide or something
even if you make it easier to gather everyone onto one website to play pickup games and stuff on it, you're still going to have to figure out a simple way for everyone to communicate, since in-game isn't the correct choice
a lot of people that have trouble with irc will find setting up mumble impossible (source: new players on pug.na and pug.nahl)
i find that atf2 helped a ton in bringing easier access to the irc channels, but we can't really find a good alternative to mumble that makes it easier to install/set up for newer players besides praying they look up a guide or something
even if you make it easier to gather everyone onto one website to play pickup games and stuff on it, you're still going to have to figure out a simple way for everyone to communicate, since in-game isn't the correct choice
Fox
I mean, that's getting off-topic, but it's a somewhat good point.
To that, I would say either we find a way to embed a version of mumble into the website, or we could see if it's possible to make a script that people could download, that once executed, would automatically add the server to your list in Mumble and maybe even connect you. To add to that actually, I do believe that there is a way to add your own server and certificates to a client-side mumble client and then you would just have to repackage it for others to download. Then all that would have to be done, is change the download link for people and it would direct them to our version of mumble, which would have all the servers already in the list.
[quote=Fox][/quote]
I mean, that's getting off-topic, but it's a somewhat good point.
To that, I would say either we find a way to embed a version of mumble into the website, or we could see if it's possible to make a script that people could download, that once executed, would automatically add the server to your list in Mumble and maybe even connect you. To add to that actually, I do believe that there is a way to add your own server and certificates to a client-side mumble client and then you would just have to repackage it for others to download. Then all that would have to be done, is change the download link for people and it would direct them to our version of mumble, which would have all the servers already in the list.
KissmeFox
I mean, that's getting off-topic, but it's a somewhat good point.
To that, I would say either we find a way to embed a version of mumble into the website, or we could see if it's possible to make a script that people could download, that once executed, would automatically add the server to your list in Mumble and maybe even connect you. To add to that actually, I do believe that there is a way to add your own server and certificates to a client-side mumble client and then you would just have to repackage it for others to download. Then all that would have to be done, is change the download link for people and it would direct them to our version of mumble, which would have all the servers already in the list.
Well the Crit Fail page has a big mumble button that connects you once you click it so it's easy enough for newbies. All they have to do is download the program.
[quote=Kissme][quote=Fox][/quote]
I mean, that's getting off-topic, but it's a somewhat good point.
To that, I would say either we find a way to embed a version of mumble into the website, or we could see if it's possible to make a script that people could download, that once executed, would automatically add the server to your list in Mumble and maybe even connect you. To add to that actually, I do believe that there is a way to add your own server and certificates to a client-side mumble client and then you would just have to repackage it for others to download. Then all that would have to be done, is change the download link for people and it would direct them to our version of mumble, which would have all the servers already in the list.[/quote]
Well the Crit Fail page has a big mumble button that connects you once you click it so it's easy enough for newbies. All they have to do is download the program.
Giga
Well that solves that lol
[quote=Giga][/quote]
Well that solves that lol
i'm not a pug.na vet or anything, but i just helped out a user the other day who wasn't sure about bot commands, mumble commands, weapon restrictions, etc.
first, i gave him the link for the rules that's in the topic, and then i asked him if he had any questions. he was thankful then he played.
i got sick of tf2lobby very quickly and think i googled something to the extent of "tf2 how to join pug" -- i discovered and watched sal's video on getting into irc/pugs.
i've used atf2.org ever since. it really is that easy to start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKN0E5_YDpU
i'm not a pug.na vet or anything, but i just helped out a user the other day who wasn't sure about bot commands, mumble commands, weapon restrictions, etc.
first, i gave him the link for the rules that's in the topic, and then i asked him if he had any questions. he was thankful then he played.
i got sick of tf2lobby very quickly and think i googled something to the extent of "tf2 how to join pug" -- i discovered and watched sal's video on getting into irc/pugs.
i've used atf2.org ever since. it really is that easy to start.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKN0E5_YDpU[/youtube]
Honestly, if someone is actually serious about playing comp TF2, they will learn how to use IRC. I went straight into pugna and mix with literally no experience in pugs. Not exactly a smart idea, I failed miserably for the first 15 or so pugs, but still. I understand that some people are on the shyer side and are sort of afraid of IRC because it's intimidating of you don't know how to use it, but if you have no friends who know how to use IRC, and are incapable of watching one of the guides like Sal's, you honestly should stick to Newbie Mixes until you're more sure of yourself.
Honestly, if someone is [i]actually[/i] serious about playing comp TF2, they will learn how to use IRC. I went straight into pugna and mix with literally no experience in pugs. Not exactly a smart idea, I failed miserably for the first 15 or so pugs, but still. I understand that some people are on the shyer side and are sort of afraid of IRC because it's intimidating of you don't know how to use it, but if you have [i]no[/i] friends who know how to use IRC, and are incapable of watching one of the guides like Sal's, you honestly should stick to Newbie Mixes until you're more sure of yourself.
I also don't see what's so hard about IRC. You don't even need an IRC client. There's plenty of applets out there. You could even build a relatively simple chat window with the instructions embedded in the page next to it. I'm not even talking about the complexity that Lange has.
http://webchat.gamesurge.net/?channels=tf2.mix.nahl
http://webchat.gamesurge.net/?channels=tf2mix
http://webchat.gamesurge.net/?channels=tf2.pug.na
http://webchat.gamesurge.net/?channels=tf2.pug.nahl
Type !need to see list of players.
!add [classes].
Wait to be picked.
Join mumble.
Join server.
Start with a helpful applet page like that and build up to a system like Lange has that would be pretty and fun.
I also don't see what's so hard about IRC. You don't even need an IRC client. There's plenty of applets out there. You could even build a relatively simple chat window with the instructions embedded in the page next to it. I'm not even talking about the complexity that Lange has.
http://webchat.gamesurge.net/?channels=tf2.mix.nahl
http://webchat.gamesurge.net/?channels=tf2mix
http://webchat.gamesurge.net/?channels=tf2.pug.na
http://webchat.gamesurge.net/?channels=tf2.pug.nahl
Type !need to see list of players.
!add [classes].
Wait to be picked.
Join mumble.
Join server.
Start with a helpful applet page like that and build up to a system like Lange has that would be pretty and fun.
cosmophilicI understand the reasoning behind sticking to IRC for pugs. It creates a sort of technical barrier that keeps casual players away, so that more competitive players can keep it to themselves and maintain a higher level of play. I think that's perfectly fine. But at the same time, I think this is also a barrier that keeps players away from comp TF2.
You think we've all have been using IRC for the last decade just to keep casuals out of our pugs? That's funny :)
We use IRC because it's easy....
[quote=cosmophilic]I understand the reasoning behind sticking to IRC for pugs. It creates a sort of technical barrier that keeps casual players away, so that more competitive players can keep it to themselves and maintain a higher level of play. I think that's perfectly fine. But at the same time, I think this is also a barrier that keeps players away from comp TF2.
[/quote]
You think we've all have been using IRC for the last decade just to keep casuals out of our pugs? That's funny :)
We use IRC because it's easy....
Just to clarify, its not like irc or mumble are very hard to learn but just the fact that its something different that you have to learn first will cause a lot of people to not even attempt to play. In a game where you want new people to join, that is not a good thing. A majority of people do not know what IRC is
Just to clarify, its not like irc or mumble are very hard to learn but just the fact that its something different that you have to learn first will cause a lot of people to not even attempt to play. In a game where you want new people to join, that is not a good thing. A majority of people do not know what IRC is
atf2 is pretty self-explanatory, and you don't need to know anything about IRC to use it. Once someone is in a channel, if they don't understand what to do someone will probably explain it to them.
Has anyone contacted whoever runs tf2pickup.net and asked if an NA section could be added, if servers were provided?
atf2 is pretty self-explanatory, and you don't need to know anything about IRC to use it. Once someone is in a channel, if they don't understand what to do someone will probably explain it to them.
Has anyone contacted whoever runs tf2pickup.net and asked if an NA section could be added, if servers were provided?
lamefxJust to clarify, its not like irc or mumble are very hard to learn but just the fact that its something different that you have to learn first will cause a lot of people to not even attempt to play. In a game where you want new people to join, that is not a good thing. A majority of people do not know what IRC is
This is my point exactly. Whether or not IRC is actually difficult to use isn't the issue. It's the PERCEPTION of difficulty that keeps users away.
Also, I think something smaller would be good. Something that communities can use to host pugs in-house, so that users that wouldn't otherwise be interested in 6v6 or HL can play with their friends for the sake of playing with their friends, and then hopefully grow an interest from there.
[quote=lamefx]Just to clarify, its not like irc or mumble are very hard to learn but just the fact that its something different that you have to learn first will cause a lot of people to not even attempt to play. In a game where you want new people to join, that is not a good thing. A majority of people do not know what IRC is[/quote]
This is my point exactly. Whether or not IRC is actually difficult to use isn't the issue. It's the PERCEPTION of difficulty that keeps users away.
Also, I think something smaller would be good. Something that communities can use to host pugs in-house, so that users that wouldn't otherwise be interested in 6v6 or HL can play with their friends for the sake of playing with their friends, and then hopefully grow an interest from there.
You guys should come PwrPug. Very friendly and easy. Pugs everyday!
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/Pwrpugs
You guys should come PwrPug. Very friendly and easy. Pugs everyday!
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/Pwrpugs
How hard is it to goto www.atf2.org and type a couple commands?
How hard is it to goto www.atf2.org and type a couple commands?
IRC is a good tool to use. It has already been setup and it is not hard at all to learn. While it may keep casual players away I still see newer players try to participate in pugs. There are so many steam groups for pugs and that's where most of the casual gamers go to participate in.
How hard is it to use IRC? the answer: not at all.
IRC is a good tool to use. It has already been setup and it is not hard at all to learn. While it may keep casual players away I still see newer players try to participate in pugs. There are so many steam groups for pugs and that's where most of the casual gamers go to participate in.
How hard is it to use IRC? the answer: not at all.
c4shIRC is a good tool to use. It has already been setup and it is not hard at all to learn. While it may keep casual players away I still see newer players try to participate in pugs. There are so many steam groups for pugs and that's where most of the casual gamers go to participate in.
How hard is it to use IRC? the answer: not at all.
I think everyone is in agreement that IRC is fairly straightforward and easy to understand. However, it's more likely that a random player will want to participate in something that's as easy as clicking a button rather than downloading a client, learning what to say, and then not getting picked. I think Lange's solution would be the best since it allows everyone who likes IRC to continue using it, but also gives newer players a simple graphic interface to use IRC without knowing they're using IRC.
[quote=c4sh]IRC is a good tool to use. It has already been setup and it is not hard at all to learn. While it may keep casual players away I still see newer players try to participate in pugs. There are so many steam groups for pugs and that's where most of the casual gamers go to participate in.
How hard is it to use IRC? the answer: not at all.[/quote]
I think everyone is in agreement that IRC is fairly straightforward and easy to understand. However, it's more likely that a random player will want to participate in something that's as easy as clicking a button rather than downloading a client, learning what to say, and then not getting picked. I think Lange's solution would be the best since it allows everyone who likes IRC to continue using it, but also gives newer players a simple graphic interface to use IRC without [u]knowing[/u] they're using IRC.
Aren't there like 50 of these "being made" right now?
Also, IRC sucks for this type of thing. It's pretty limited in functionality and isn't very enjoyable to use. Just because it's easy to type commands doesn't mean it's the best way; I will never understand the people who think it's the best thing in the world. It's these people who say "IRC isn't hard, why should we change" that are restricting new players from entering the scene. It's kind of silly to want new players to join the game, but then basically call them dumb when they don't want to use a chatroom as their primary interface for playing.
Lange's solution is a decent compromise, though.
Aren't there like 50 of these "being made" right now?
Also, IRC sucks for this type of thing. It's pretty limited in functionality and isn't very enjoyable to use. Just because it's easy to type commands doesn't mean it's the best way; I will never understand the people who think it's the best thing in the world. It's these people who say "IRC isn't hard, why should we change" that are restricting new players from entering the scene. It's kind of silly to want new players to join the game, but then basically call them dumb when they don't want to use a chatroom as their primary interface for playing.
Lange's solution is a decent compromise, though.
User friendly GUI = people like it because it looks pretty and it's easy to click on things.
IRC unfortunately isn't that user friendly, even though if you take your time to read how to use it it's a piece of cake. The problem is: people don't have time to read, they want things and they want it now. If they have a nice system that's pretty much graphic, there you go.
Just think why Windows was so successful back in the day when it was launch.
User friendly GUI = people like it because it looks pretty and it's easy to click on things.
IRC unfortunately isn't that user friendly, even though if you take your time to read how to use it it's a piece of cake. The problem is: people don't have time to read, they want things and they want it now. If they have a nice system that's pretty much graphic, there you go.
Just think why Windows was so successful back in the day when it was launch.