https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2gwQGwUUAMNxz1?format=png&name=orig

i learned this in my first newbie mix maybe it could help yall :d

spoons just purely not fun to play against no matter the class unless you're fucking around with friends in lobbies, fun to play with but that's a purely one way street, theres also just no way to dodge a spoon coming for you sometimes when the soldier is literally traveling at mach 4 or in a really closed space

It's not fun dying (and especially dropping) to a OHKO weapon from a skilled soldier who does a speedshot jump towards you where the reaction time needed to kill the Soldier before he touches you is so fast, it's unrealistic, but I also don't want the MG banned because those insane moments are far and few between. The more likely scenario is a Soldier just going up in the air and coming down, and those are fairly easy to either dodge or snipe him out of the air.

I think the MG provides the Soldier some alternative ability to make some of the big plays needed, otherwise he would only have four rockets to work with and playing him would be even more textbook and predictable than it is now. Soldier already has a tedious enough time being the one who breaks stalemates, and often having to kill himself for two minutes straight just to try and make something happen, I don't want to gimp him further without offering a replacement in his utility. The only thing I detest are bunny hop crits, which feel like you did everything right in dodging the Soldier but still died. But those are baked into Valve's engine, so there's no real way around that.

i like spoon :D

but what if the soldier isnt penciling with it and jumps horizontally? :D

Hide behind your pocket soldier.

For real, medics are upset about spoon because you can't surf it. It moves counterplay almost entirely to your team, giving them even more opportunities to screw you over, and there's nothing you can do about it. It doesn't matter what the skill required to counter it vs the skill required to pull it off is, the medic becomes essentially a bystander who has to hope his team doesn't choke and misses 5 shots on a 30 hp roamer like they always do.
I can't count how many times I've seen scouts jumping into an incoming memespooner's face for the denial shot, only to miss it, then jump out of the way because their life as 0 dpm scout is more important than the medic's.

u were badly positioned and were gonna die anyways to his primary weapon The Rocket launcher :d

I'd rather die getting two rocketed every single time than die because the Soldier swung a melee weapon in my general vicinity that instantly KO's me.

except people can and generally do use 4 rockets to bomb in and go for market garden, where that sack would be totally useless without it

??? so just by having this weapon equipped and hitting da right trajectory on his jump his sac is guaranteed a trade? when with the rocket launcher he would have to hit 2 directs on da buffed scout getting in the way of his sac? just because u can play around it doesn't mean it's not silly.

I'm saying scouts who manage to be in the correct position and still miss their shots should take the hit. It's what they deserve.

Also yes, if a roamer hits the right trajectory and lands directly in someone's face and isn't killed then he tends to get a pick. I think that's how it works.

i don't think any of you actually watch jay

his impact with the market gardener comes from getting free kills in chaos fights when players have to look at habib or they'll die

he gets his share of med picks/drops but those are easier to guard against through positioning and anticipation. on the other hand it's impossible to stop him from getting free quick kills in team fights

fun to watch tho

Honestly the most upsetting part about market gardener isn't the supposedly guaranteed med pick that no one can do anything to prevent apparently, but that a soldier can reload one rocket and suddenly do as much damage as if he had reloaded and hit 3.

I actually came in to say this, a lot of what jay's been doing more recently is waiting til people are turned, I remember scrimming froyo and trying to hold process last and he waited until I HAD to turn to watch the point to jump in and spoon me

I know someone is going to ask what the difference is between getting bombed with rockets while not looking and getting spooned while not looking

The difference is time and it's a pretty big deal, bombing with rockets you'll often get traded or be unable to get the kill, pretty big deal

but yeah, at least once a game as soldier with spoon you'll just straight up be able to instantly kill someone because they can't really look at you, even if you kind of suck at jumping lol

https://youtu.be/P8mRTvq7dhU?t=709
fast horizontal jumps like jay does on this mid are super hard to dodge, also from the soldier's perspective there's pretty much no reason not to go for the spoon when you're doing saw bombs like this to get a potential -195 and retain two rockets to use after

def fun to use as a soldier but pretty gimmicky and silly mechanic to have in the game as there's pretty much no counter play to a soldier landing on u at mach ten with a spoon (a scout further up on highground on snake mid could've prevented the bomb but obviously u can just wait until a scout is pressured back), with regular bombs u can bait out rockets by dodging, surf, and the soldier has to hit at least two good directs to kill you as a medic versus one crit mg

kinda curious to see if some region will ban it for a season cause it surely won't change play that much but i think it'd be interesting to see the pain train/equlizer decision rather than every soldier aspiring to get good at mg and running it all the time lol

another big difference that i haven’t seen mentioned is that u can hear rockets being fired and turn to look at the bomber and potentially surf

it’s pretty rare to see a 150 damage bomb where the med couldn’t have at least potentially popped or surfed given the available visual/sound cue info, whereas mg basically lets soldier function like a spy

One thing that is kind of overlooked is you can force people, especially medics to move in a certain direction, so just taking out the spoon mid jump, even if you're jump isn't that precise still forces them to move in a awkward way which makes them easier to hit with rockets, sometimes you can land on their head and they're just fucked. I wouldn't imagine this translates particularly well to invite and prem, but I've definitely gotten kills or launched someone into a spot where they just get cleaned up immediately, a kill that would be far far harder to get without the threat of -195. I think it is a net negative on the game, should probably be banned.

It's hype for viewers. Little more "new tf2" also, but even so, I wouldn't miss it.

Touchy topic.

The Market Gardener and its consequences have been a disaster for the TF2 community.