With exams over and an uneventful summer quickly approaching, I'd like to start a TF2 map. In order to do that, though, I need to fully understand what needs to be in the map.
What sort of features do you NEED in a map? I know a lot of people have a ramp fetish because they're more reliable than stairs for rockets and the like.
What sort of things to do you absolutely HATE to be in a map? I know improper mirroring is a big one.
Any suggestions you have would be absolutely stellar.
EDIT: It appears that there's far more to the subtleties of a map than I had thought. I'll plug in a few hundred more hours into TF2 and return when I feel better accustomed to the game. 800 hours is probably not enough to get a good feel for it.
With exams over and an uneventful summer quickly approaching, I'd like to start a TF2 map. In order to do that, though, I need to fully understand what needs to be in the map.
What sort of features do you NEED in a map? I know a lot of people have a ramp fetish because they're more reliable than stairs for rockets and the like.
What sort of things to do you absolutely HATE to be in a map? I know improper mirroring is a big one.
Any suggestions you have would be absolutely stellar.
EDIT: It appears that there's far more to the subtleties of a map than I had thought. I'll plug in a few hundred more hours into TF2 and return when I feel better accustomed to the game. 800 hours is probably not enough to get a good feel for it.
spires on second
good vertical flow as well as horizontal flow
no horrific chokes like granary 2nd
one 'main' route between points and one flank route that's longer to push but harder to hold (think choke vs. valley/diag on badlands)
a last point that's not entirely impossible to push out of (i.e. snakewater). A lot of this has to do with forward spawns. It's better to have them too far back than too close to the action.
a fair share of stupid hiding places for roamers. I personally hate them, but roamer dropping out of some ridiculous hiding spot and dropping the medic makes the game more exciting
spires on second
good vertical flow as well as horizontal flow
no horrific chokes like granary 2nd
one 'main' route between points and one flank route that's longer to push but harder to hold (think choke vs. valley/diag on badlands)
a last point that's not entirely impossible to push out of (i.e. snakewater). A lot of this has to do with forward spawns. It's better to have them too far back than too close to the action.
a fair share of stupid hiding places for roamers. I personally hate them, but roamer dropping out of some ridiculous hiding spot and dropping the medic makes the game more exciting
Mr_Owlno horrific chokes like granary 2nd
Could that be fixed by either raising the roof and allowing soldiers to hop over the wall onto a platform, or would it be better just to push away those walls?
Mr_Owla last point that's not entirely impossible to push out of (i.e. snakewater). A lot of this has to do with forward spawns. It's better to have them too far back than too close to the action.
Just for clarification, can you give an example of a map that makes it too defensive? I don't want to overdo it, but don't want to underdo it.
Wreathno stairs
As a soldier, I can fully understand that.
Thanks for your input, I'll make sure to keep all of your opinions in mind.
[quote=Mr_Owl]no horrific chokes like granary 2nd[/quote]
Could that be fixed by either raising the roof and allowing soldiers to hop over the wall onto a platform, or would it be better just to push away those walls?
[quote=Mr_Owl]a last point that's not entirely impossible to push out of (i.e. snakewater). A lot of this has to do with forward spawns. It's better to have them too far back than too close to the action.[/quote]
Just for clarification, can you give an example of a map that makes it too defensive? I don't want to overdo it, but don't want to underdo it.
[quote=Wreath]no stairs[/quote] As a soldier, I can fully understand that.
Thanks for your input, I'll make sure to keep all of your opinions in mind.
Personally, I'd like to see a viable competitive map made with either trains or water as an integral dynamic of the map.
Personally, I'd like to see a viable competitive map made with either trains or water as an integral dynamic of the map.
It has to allow for some awesome jumps like the rollouts on process for demo/roamer. I LOVE SLIDES. :D
It has to allow for some awesome jumps like the rollouts on process for demo/roamer. I LOVE SLIDES. :D
just put spires on second and you should be golden,
comp tf2 community love spires
just put spires on second and you should be golden,
comp tf2 community love spires
actually it needs not just a main road and a flank but another third option, like snake water has the kitchen, gully has drop down, process has sewers, badlands has house and so on
actually it needs not just a main road and a flank but another third option, like snake water has the kitchen, gully has drop down, process has sewers, badlands has house and so on
lexsactually it needs not just a main road and a flank but another third option, like snake water has the kitchen, gully has drop down, process has sewers, badlands has house and so on
Yeah I thought about how to word this properly and ended up not even mentioning it.
It's not really a third route, but more of an alternate exit out of the flank route. You still have just two real chokepoints (lower/saw in snake, choke/big door in gully, house/choke in blands). Process is the only map I've seen to successfully make three separate paths from mid to second, and a lot of that success is because sewers and choke are so close together.
[quote=lexs]actually it needs not just a main road and a flank but another third option, like snake water has the kitchen, gully has drop down, process has sewers, badlands has house and so on[/quote]
Yeah I thought about how to word this properly and ended up not even mentioning it.
It's not really a third route, but more of an alternate exit out of the flank route. You still have just two real chokepoints (lower/saw in snake, choke/big door in gully, house/choke in blands). Process is the only map I've seen to successfully make three separate paths from mid to second, and a lot of that success is because sewers and choke are so close together.
(Coming from scout/sniper POV)
I like heavy vertical maps, so many maps are just flat. I don't know how would could make it vertical with out overdoing it, but it is what I prefer in maps.
Nice nifty jumps as scouts that should be high risk/rewards (IE, can skip over a small part to get to mid faster but you fail you die...)
For some odd reason my favorite map is CP_Frieght, I like it because it is different and mid fights are a lot more fun and exciting (wasn't their a frag vid for a medic that rode a rocket over a train to pop uber on a single soldier to kill med and then rode it back to escape?)
Try and incorporate some surfing parts into a map, so people who have a good surfing skill can use it in a fire fight.
(Coming from scout/sniper POV)
I like heavy vertical maps, so many maps are just flat. I don't know how would could make it vertical with out overdoing it, but it is what I prefer in maps.
Nice nifty jumps as scouts that should be high risk/rewards (IE, can skip over a small part to get to mid faster but you fail you die...)
For some odd reason my favorite map is CP_Frieght, I like it because it is different and mid fights are a lot more fun and exciting (wasn't their a frag vid for a medic that rode a rocket over a train to pop uber on a single soldier to kill med and then rode it back to escape?)
Try and incorporate some surfing parts into a map, so people who have a good surfing skill can use it in a fire fight.
I've always thought that cp_5gorge_pro would be fun. Middle needs a rework, and second just needs less sniper lines.
I've always thought that cp_5gorge_pro would be fun. Middle needs a rework, and second just needs less sniper lines.
Quoting myself from the other recent thread in case this helps. Major elements to consider, point by point:
Middle:
• Multiple routes and rollouts.
• Two sources for height advantage, one small, one much larger (badlands trains vs. bridge itself, granary elevated middle area vs. crates, etc.)
• Make the capture area far enough from entrances that people have to commit to capturing, instead of just edging in and out (like on granary 2nd).
Second:
• The second point of a map is usually the most unique, but still should factor in some general elements. Obviously, there should be a main route from mid to second to last, but also alternate ones.
• One primary way to get in, and one or two flanking routes should be sufficient, but don't overdo it with entrances. The better maps only have 2-3 ways into second (badlands 2, granary 3, process 3[.5])
• This point should favor the team that has more people committed to the fight. That is, reinforcements should have a smaller impact than on middle, but should probably lean towards the defenders slightly (think of how spire is easier to get to for the defenders, same with process' point; lots of ground for attackers to cover, but once they're in, they have just as much positional advantage)
Last:
• Make it punishing to get on the point, but the point should cap quickly. Just about every good competitive map, with the exception of granary, makes you really commit to the point once you're on it. A lot of them wall you in (badlands, snakewater, gullywash), and they all make it difficult to leave the area once you're that far in.
• Multiple entrances, but none of them should be too much better than another. Larger entrances should be further away from the point or have a poor position otherwise (give up height advantage, etc.) to make it harder to swarm through there.
• Defenders should be able to get to the point relatively quickly from spawn, but at the same time, resupply cabinets should be further back in spawn areas to prevent easy turtling.
• Make it difficult to push out of the last point, but doable. A good last point has a lot of routes for people to get behind and make something happen, but should still be hold-able for the defending team.
General considerations:
• Chokepoints should be scarce, but still existent. Don't make them too big (like coldfront's tunnel on second/last).
• Be sure to consider the main 4 classes heavily (scout, soldier, demo, medic), but don't forget things like sniper sightlines. Scouts should have some terrain to abuse via double jumps, but soldiers should be able to counter most of it. Some places should only be easily accessible by precise jumps, like badlands' dropdown (or granary's for ridiculousness).
• Spawn and cap times should be tweaked a bit to account for distances, don't leave these as defaults.
These are things I've tried to pick up from currently successful maps and work into ideas for new ones, I'm sure some people may have different opinions and a lot of these are obvious, but I think it's a pretty good checklist.
Quoting myself from the other recent thread in case this helps. Major elements to consider, point by point:
[b]Middle:[/b]
• Multiple routes and rollouts.
• Two sources for height advantage, one small, one much larger (badlands trains vs. bridge itself, granary elevated middle area vs. crates, etc.)
• Make the capture area far enough from entrances that people have to commit to capturing, instead of just edging in and out (like on granary 2nd).
[b]Second:[/b]
• The second point of a map is usually the most unique, but still should factor in some general elements. Obviously, there should be a main route from mid to second to last, but also alternate ones.
• One primary way to get in, and one or two flanking routes should be sufficient, but don't overdo it with entrances. The better maps only have 2-3 ways into second (badlands 2, granary 3, process 3[.5])
• This point should favor the team that has more people committed to the fight. That is, reinforcements should have a smaller impact than on middle, but should probably lean towards the defenders slightly (think of how spire is easier to get to for the defenders, same with process' point; lots of ground for attackers to cover, but once they're in, they have just as much positional advantage)
[b]Last:[/b]
• Make it punishing to get on the point, but the point should cap quickly. Just about every good competitive map, with the exception of granary, makes you really commit to the point once you're on it. A lot of them wall you in (badlands, snakewater, gullywash), and they all make it difficult to leave the area once you're that far in.
• Multiple entrances, but none of them should be too much better than another. Larger entrances should be further away from the point or have a poor position otherwise (give up height advantage, etc.) to make it harder to swarm through there.
• Defenders should be able to get to the point relatively quickly from spawn, but at the same time, resupply cabinets should be further back in spawn areas to prevent easy turtling.
• Make it difficult to push out of the last point, but doable. A good last point has a lot of routes for people to get behind and make something happen, but should still be hold-able for the defending team.
[b]General considerations:[/b]
• Chokepoints should be scarce, but still existent. Don't make them too big (like coldfront's tunnel on second/last).
• Be sure to consider the main 4 classes heavily (scout, soldier, demo, medic), but don't forget things like sniper sightlines. Scouts should have some terrain to abuse via double jumps, but soldiers should be able to counter most of it. Some places should only be easily accessible by precise jumps, like badlands' dropdown (or granary's for ridiculousness).
• Spawn and cap times should be tweaked a bit to account for distances, don't leave these as defaults.
These are things I've tried to pick up from currently successful maps and work into ideas for new ones, I'm sure some people may have different opinions and a lot of these are obvious, but I think it's a pretty good checklist.
Once I get home, I'll compile a list of everything you've said so far. If everyone could +frag everything they think is the best idea, that'd help out my organizing.
I appreciate the suggestions everyone's put in.
Once I get home, I'll compile a list of everything you've said so far. If everyone could +frag everything they think is the best idea, that'd help out my organizing.
I appreciate the suggestions everyone's put in.
Basically what synchro said.
I'd like to add something to the third route thing:
The flank should be seperated from choke (gran = counterexample) with ideally more than one way to both points. The third route should be close to choke (closer than the flank, but not as close as gully dropdown) with only one path to both points (maybe a fork like the two sewer doors). This third route can be connected to the flank (e.g. badlands house) but doesn't have to.
Picture of process and snakewater with the choke, the normal, complicated flank and the additional "choke" flank highlighted.
http://i.imgur.com/0i19mz9.jpg
Basically what synchro said.
I'd like to add something to the third route thing:
The flank should be seperated from choke (gran = counterexample) with ideally more than one way to both points. The third route should be close to choke (closer than the flank, but not as close as gully dropdown) with only one path to both points (maybe a fork like the two sewer doors). This third route can be connected to the flank (e.g. badlands house) but doesn't have to.
Picture of process and snakewater with the choke, the normal, complicated flank and the additional "choke" flank highlighted.
[URL=http://imgur.com/0i19mz9][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/0i19mz9.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
SetsulBasically what synchro said.
I'd like to add something to the third route thing:
The flank should be seperated from choke (gran = counterexample) with ideally more than one way to both points. The third route should be close to choke (closer than the flank, but not as close as gully dropdown) with only one path to both points (maybe a fork like the two sewer doors). This third route can be connected to the flank (e.g. badlands house) but doesn't have to.
Picture of process and snakewater with the choke, the normal, complicated flank and the additional "choke" flank highlighted.
How complicated/annoying should I make it to enter via the flank/alt? Should I make it painful or just a tad annoying? Should it be risky or just time consuming?
[quote=Setsul]Basically what synchro said.
I'd like to add something to the third route thing:
The flank should be seperated from choke (gran = counterexample) with ideally more than one way to both points. The third route should be close to choke (closer than the flank, but not as close as gully dropdown) with only one path to both points (maybe a fork like the two sewer doors). This third route can be connected to the flank (e.g. badlands house) but doesn't have to.
Picture of process and snakewater with the choke, the normal, complicated flank and the additional "choke" flank highlighted.
[/quote]
How complicated/annoying should I make it to enter via the flank/alt? Should I make it painful or just a tad annoying? Should it be risky or just time consuming?
from the perspective of a scout main: verticality! Of course, don't overdo it or else you get scouts "laughing maniacally while jumping around on props and clicking people to death". I forget who said that, but cred to whoever it was.
Anyway flat and open maps make scouts less viable because it's hard to get into meatshotting distance without eating a rocket.
Also,(still talking about scoutting) challenging jumps for unique positional advantages makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. See gpit B for examples. You can get to the top of the house from almost anywhere if you know how. And lithely jumping through the windows on roof to help DM soldiers makes me cackle with glee.
from the perspective of a scout main: verticality! Of course, don't overdo it or else you get scouts "laughing maniacally while jumping around on props and clicking people to death". I forget who said that, but cred to whoever it was.
Anyway flat and open maps make scouts less viable because it's hard to get into meatshotting distance without eating a rocket.
Also,(still talking about scoutting) challenging jumps for unique positional advantages makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. See gpit B for examples. You can get to the top of the house from almost anywhere if you know how. And lithely jumping through the windows on roof to help DM soldiers makes me cackle with glee.
ckapHow complicated/annoying should I make it to enter via the flank/alt? Should I make it painful or just a tad annoying? Should it be risky or just time consuming?
I meant more complex in terms of the number of paths, sorry for the confusion. Risky would be cool to see, anyway some sort of obstacles or the distance itself should consume a bit of time so that scouts can't just get behind the combo in three seconds. The "choke" flank would be easier/faster to use but riskier. The combo could have vision of it from choke/holding position (like kitchen/lower or house/haunter).
[quote=ckap]How complicated/annoying should I make it to enter via the flank/alt? Should I make it painful or just a tad annoying? Should it be risky or just time consuming?[/quote]I meant more complex in terms of the number of paths, sorry for the confusion. Risky would be cool to see, anyway some sort of obstacles or the distance itself should consume a bit of time so that scouts can't just get behind the combo in three seconds. The "choke" flank would be easier/faster to use but riskier. The combo could have vision of it from choke/holding position (like kitchen/lower or house/haunter).
Have a pretty skybox like metalworks
Have a pretty skybox like metalworks
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/7385/
Gimmicky hiding spots so I can go huge as fuck
The whole dynamic of badlands is pretty unique to that one map. There is a mid mid which is the place to fight and control. Then there is below.
So sort of like a sub level to a mid instead of a top level.
I forgot about gully
Gimmicky hiding spots so I can go huge as fuck
The whole dynamic of badlands is pretty unique to that one map. There is a mid mid which is the place to fight and control. Then there is below.
So sort of like a sub level to a mid instead of a top level.
I forgot about gully
On mid the best maps are the ones where you have to fight to take positional advantage. So you're not just going to mid to fight the other team, but your going on mid to fight the other team for a positional advantage. could be on top of the point like on the creates (granary,process) or on top the train (badlands). but the positional advantage has to be diverse. so like if you take over your side on badlands, the other team still has counters to you taking one side. idk if im articulating myself correctly. message me in steam we can discuss
On mid the best maps are the ones where you have to fight to take positional advantage. So you're not just going to mid to fight the other team, but your going on mid to fight the other team for a positional advantage. could be on top of the point like on the creates (granary,process) or on top the train (badlands). but the positional advantage has to be diverse. so like if you take over your side on badlands, the other team still has counters to you taking one side. idk if im articulating myself correctly. message me in steam we can discuss
no doorframes that you can get stuck on
no doorframes that you can get stuck on
Never separate the teams by virtue of forcing every possible peeking spot to be commit/die. Mapmakers still do not understand that this game gets boring really fucking quick when sniper is the only class that can have any meaningful interaction during a stalemate. Gran yard/mid allows you to spam back and forth, badlands last allows you to create damage that you can potentially push on, and yet cp_deathfortressforalast could describe like 3 maps in rotation. Badlands last is not a large area, and the optimal defensive position isn't more than an uncharged sticky away from main but we still have lasts now that make it nearly impossible for a soldier to do any sort of meaningful spam, or for a demo to hit anything other than with a charged sticky.
Never separate the teams by virtue of forcing every possible peeking spot to be commit/die. Mapmakers [b]still[/b] do not understand that this game gets boring really fucking quick when sniper is the only class that can have any meaningful interaction during a stalemate. Gran yard/mid allows you to spam back and forth, badlands last allows you to create damage that you can potentially push on, and yet cp_deathfortressforalast could describe like 3 maps in rotation. Badlands last is not a large area, and the optimal defensive position isn't more than an uncharged sticky away from main but we still have lasts now that make it nearly impossible for a soldier to do any sort of meaningful spam, or for a demo to hit anything other than with a charged sticky.
athermalPersonally, I'd like to see a viable competitive map made with either trains or water as an integral dynamic of the map.
profixIt has to allow for some awesome jumps like the rollouts on process for demo/roamer. I LOVE SLIDES. :D
Put in some water jumps.
Well is trashy but I miss that part, esp now with gunboats.
[quote=athermal]Personally, I'd like to see a viable competitive map made with either trains or water as an integral dynamic of the map.[/quote]
[quote=profix]It has to allow for some awesome jumps like the rollouts on process for demo/roamer. I LOVE SLIDES. :D[/quote]
Put in some water jumps.
Well is trashy but I miss that part, esp now with gunboats.
ClankPut in some water jumps.
Water maps and maps with water are pretty much horrible.
I also hate it when maps are huge beyond proportion (freight, yukon, well, foundry to name a few). If you're gonna make a map just don't make a big one or I'm gonna cry.
[quote=Clank]Put in some water jumps. [/quote]
Water maps and maps with water are pretty much horrible.
I also hate it when maps are huge beyond proportion (freight, yukon, well, foundry to name a few). If you're gonna make a map just don't make a big one or I'm gonna cry.
ramps and spires and water. I'd like to see advanced rocket/sticky jumping have more exciting uses like on process.
ramps and spires and water. I'd like to see advanced rocket/sticky jumping have more exciting uses like on process.
Good lighting. Ambient sound used only used when necessary to create impression of atmosphere.
Good lighting. Ambient sound used only used when necessary to create impression of atmosphere.