Afaik it's more a distribution and modeling problem. Valve puts them into the game, but IIRC the leagues submit them and handle distribution

Right, I honestly have no idea how much effort/time goes into creating a medal. I doubt valve would want to dedicate however much time it takes to make all of them for each division so that would probably leave it up to the community.

Nice post Killing, but I seriously don't get the shitstorm this has all turned into.
Nobody has ever spoken of 6s lobbies, all that is happening is valve picking up HL which will benefit the competitive tf2 scene by making pubstompers aware of the fact that comp exists.

Of course the agitation will cool down and in a couple months nobody will talk about this anymore, but seriously, stop taking this so seriously.
We are the community, nobody can "break" our game if we don't want it. Not valve, not esea , not even 10000 noobs running 2 demos to mid using the caber. Comp tf2 survived 5 years of valve not giving a shit, it will survive them giving a shit for once. And most porbably benefit from it.
Lean back, contribute to weapon balancing and enjoy the show.

I feel that instead of valve incorporating into the game, if they would just advertise it somehow, like a link on the website that is visible, or like a button somewhere in the game that redirects up to like a guide with instructions on how to get into competitive tf2, with links to the popular leagues and communities like reddit, tf.tv, ugcleague, or somewhere it would work and put alot less stress on the community. Even like a community update where they write some comic about a player being to good and running off to play competitively, we don't need a whole lobby system just to advertise comp tf2.

I don't get how catering to Valve would be an unpopular opinion considering how slowly valve catered to competitive play (How many months with random crits? How many years until fixed weapon and damage spread?).

There was a decent amount of talk when TF2 was just starting, but it took so long just to get a lot of these changes in. To me it's really late to force the competitive meta to change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxkHSN7GjwU

THIS IS TF2

This is all pretty funny.

Valve openly stated they're not interested in 6v6, all their suggestions were for highlander, and Robin just said "well I guess it could work for 6s too" to Sal once.

Seriously. Thats it.

This is no CGS or CPL drama. There is no evil plan to kill 6s. In fact, Valve said nearly nothing about 6s (except for Robin saying he doesn't like to watch it) and everything they were looking at was for highlander.

Of course, tftv being tftv, everyone made it about 6s, not the HL lobby we could possibly get. Robin not liking 6s became some huge, world-ending issue. Jump ahead of yourselves and get scared about a made up boogeyman with no basis in reality. Its dumb.

Seriously, theres no downside to this. You can look into your crystal ball all you want and wiggle your fingers about a doomed future where everything is dead but in the end its all speculation and making connections (CGS changing CS rules) that aren't there.

You wanna know the truth? What killed CGS CS is a very basic idea: They changed the basic setup. The default set up. The STANDARD, SHIPPED WITH THE GAME set up. Funny how those drastic changes in rules are somehow a killing blow for CS, yet we did it in TF2 to create 6v6 and its somehow not the same thing?

Thats the key. Think for a moment, and name one major pro game that is radically different in pub play and comp. Starcraft, LoL, Dota, CS, whatever. The games they're playing on the big stage are the EXACT SAME GAME you play when you do so casually at home, only better.

Thats Valves entire point. 6v6 is so drastically different from standard public play (the type of play that the entire game is built around) that no one gets into it, no one is interested in it, and it doesn't have any huge longevity except for a small part of the community. Highlander, the actual, original focus on the whole pug pick/ban system, was picked because it is, for one, much closer to public play, and two, doesn't fuck with the 6v6 meta people hold onto so dearly.

Valve NEVER pointed to 6v6 and said "We want to change it." They pointed to Highlander, and their suggestion we're far off from what it already had. It was places like TFTV that pointed it in 6v6s direction, and then utterly shit themselves at the realization.

Why does he get +6 frage saying the same thing as me? :(
Gib frags plos hue

idk, I got a bit more into detail about it kind of? I'm just kind of annoyed at people becoming doomsayers of something thats seriously not even happening. If you don't want it for 6v6, then help Highlander get a lobby system instead (which, again, was the point), and 6v6 will remain pure and innocent and whatever else.

maybe because the stock game/the way it was made is shit, so we made it better by creating class limits/weapon bans. CGS didn't make CS better with their changes, they made it worse, hence why it killed it.

TF2 changes were made by the community, with improving gameplay in mind. CGS made changes with only spectating in mind, which is why their changes were bad.

The whole idea of changing the game to make it more viewer friendly is exactly the mistake CGS did and its why people don't want the same thing to happen to tf2.

People are scared that if we try to change 6s to meet valves idea on how it should be played, or to make it more "spectator friendly" or "pubber friendly" it will turn into something that is shit/un-fun/slow paced/bad, which is what tf2 used to be before we added all the restrictions on it.

People act like we didn't try to give using utility classes a chance at being a standard class/used all the time. Like we didn't try to incorporate as many unlocks as we could. We did, it just turned out doing those things made tf2 into a boring, un-fun game that people enjoyed far less than what we have now.

Four demos two medics.

¯\_(⊙︿⊙)_/¯

Then don't. Seriously, Valve never pointed to 6s. They talked about Highlander. The only mention of 6s was Robin didn't like to watch it personally.

Did you not see the thread where enigma was proposing converting all of 6s over to a new format with no class limits and no weapon bans? I'm pretty sure this was a response to that.

Edit: see this -> http://pastebin.com/G2kxjMVR Enigma said in the thread the idea was to change all of 6s (including esea) over to the new format once we figured out a good way for it to work. (If we could ever get it to work)

Its going on the same kind of logic that Robin somehow "disapproves" of 6v6, that we "have" to change it. He doesn't, and we don't, Robin just knows it doesn't have much of a chance catching on to the majority of TF2 players and is therefore not focusing it.

It was TFTV that decided to shift this into 6v6. Reread Sals post, Robin, Valve, no one was making this about 6v6....until TFTV did.

To clearify: Valve has nothing to do with 6v6 or changing it, its the community thats doing it. Honestly I'm all for allowing more weapons in 6v6, but I don't play it, I just watch it and play HL.

EDIT: Besides, they made it pretty clear that its only an "experiment", and not much besides that unless players find they like it and it improves the game.

We all know why the class bans are in place, and we all know why we use the maps we use and ban the weapons we ban. We know what's good about the format and we know why it works. But Valve doesn't, and doesn't seem willing to take our word for it. So if they want an experimental tournament to see for themselves, then I think we should give them as much 'double heavy on snakewater last' as they can take before they fall asleep.

They seem pretty set on using objective data as the base from which they make all their changes, so we should give it to them. I trust Valve not to force 6s to be something it's not. Worse case scenario is nothing changes.

^

reading is hard

True, I think the whole thing is kind of a mis-communication and probably a knee-jerk reaction to Robin calling the 6s meta stale, but the idea of drastically reworking how 6s works to make it more pubber and spectator friendly is one that's been thrown around a lot to try and get more people into 6s, and some people are using Robin's statement to push their argument.

Also the idea of changing 6s to get valve support was something that wasn't even presented to valve yet so everyone flipping out like its actually going to happen is kind of silly. We don't even know if they actually want us to change it or changing it would get them to support us/pay attention to us.

theres a reason why valve doesnt pay attention to 6v6 cause its a joke lol

Could you stop posting this in every thread on tf.tv kthx

I can play but i choose not to

I don't care though

what is the difference between you saying its an experiment and me saying its an experiment

Because you're crying to the heavens about valve ruining 6v6 when they have nothing to do with it. If you read the thread you'd understand this was all supposed to be for HL, and some people in the community decided to make this about 6s. The only involvement from Valve in changes to 6s is Robin saying he personally doesn't care for it.

... I'm saying that's NOT going to happen. And yes, this thread IS about 6v6. Unless my monitor's upside down and all the 9s look like 6s. Killing is talking about the potential fragmentation of the 6v6 scene due to multiple formats, which ultimately leads to the disintegration of the community.

it's literally 5 am go to sleep and stop arguing about video games

TF2 actually has quite a sizable competitive scene, the problem is that people are being really unrealistic by trying to make the game up there with LoL/DotA/SC2. Lets be real here. TF2 was never designed to be a competitive game. Valve didn't put any restrictions on class limits and added things like random crits. The game has been out for nearly 6 years and there has never been any valve created gamemode that represents anything even remotely competitive. Why? Valve never intended the game to be competitive. It's really that simple, stop over-thinking.

I suggest you take a step back and look at the game we hold (myself included) in such high regard. Not just cosmetic hats, but actual weapons that are used in competitive games are randomly allotted to players or must be obtained with achievements. Items that near every competitive player uses, like the ubersaw and escape plan are items that are not actually readily accessible to every player. Killing was using the bonesaw in the last couple of ESEA matches because his trade function wasn't working and he didn't have one.

6s has been a trial and error construction the community has made in an attempt to make a casual 12v12 based FPS into a competitive game. We take for granted how big our competitive scene is despite this. Like Killing said, fucking over our current 6s format would be dumb - because we'd be killing (heh) the games competitive scene.

I think were just arguing about different things at this point. He was trying to point out that valve never asked for us to change 6s, nor was it even confirmed that changing the format would at all interest them or make them support us.

Everyone else in the thread is just theory crafting about what would happen if the league actually did start up with the new rule set, which is kind of jumping the gun since we don't even know if valve wants this in the first place.

has anyone thought of having the 6v6 we know and love but adding an offclass.

Perhaps there is nothing to be reconciled here and Robin Walker is simply ignorant.

how many communities have survived and continues to grow with so little financial input from outside the community (sponsors etc)?

what does it take for people to realize what a gem tf2 really is?