yeah i saw this its a great idea, logically though, the level of play would be lower than even tf2 lobby which would be a bummer but its still a great idea none the less.

i think the idea is that if people see this as a game mode, they might look to youtube or twitch to see how its best done. when they notice certain players doing really well with certain classes they might copy it or want to get better at it.

doesnt even matter if people are bad or not. its about exposure.

Agree completely Sal, but how can we actually pitch this and make a difference. How would we differentiate it from the other proposals that valve has seen for comp tf2? Is it through sheer numbers, do we need to have a competitive TF2-wide petition with signatures? The idea is great, and this will honestly seems like a win win for both parties. I think the time is now,to really step it up and rally together and come up with a plan of action.

Elo system. Donezo.

Hes got that day9 thing going on, but they prob could just grab the pubcomp stuff and make it better if anything

It needs a ranking system as well. If you think the tf2 lobby players are bad, imagine how it would be if everyone who owns tf2 could now play. Even then, *and I hate this* scouts who leave flank vulnerable to get frags usually make your team lose, but they look good on the scoreboard even though they were the worst team wise. So it'd have to be some tricky stats to be accurate. Though I guess it would still filter out a lot of bad players with straight points and wins.

Sounds like a really good idea to expose 6v6 to those who haven't been able to experience it, and would really help noobs who are maybe looking to make their first step in the transition from pub to comp. Maybe the prize system could work a little differently but the way I see it, perfect. Only issue I can see is people making smurf accounts to cheat but I'm sure some sort of report system can be used to revert those games or something.

LoL has a system where they match you with people who is somewhat at your level, that needs to be implemented in order for this to not be a tf2lobby shitfest with bad players. That is hard to implement, but I would definitely pay to play in a serious system like this (so it's worth it)

I emailed Valve and included this thread + the reddit one for them to analyze for feedback. Here's hoping they take a look!

Salamancer is there anything you cannot do?

I think this is a really bad idea. It would be like TF2lobby except even more players who don't know what their doing. TF2lobby isn't very conducive to learning because people aren't willing to help the new players out. I know there are exceptions to this, but most people don't.

I would rather have a system where you setup a team and have them compete in a season. Maybe have a match making rating for the teams, similar to how arena teams worked in WoW. This would give the new players a chance to play people their level and have the pros still play against each other.

Or, you could view this as a expansion to get more people interested in 6's and therefore some of them would pursue further into say Newbie Mixes, etc. and eventually into stuff like #tf2mix, UGC, or even ESEA.

I think that's fine, Lunacide. Obviously if people are going to transition into comp play there will be a period when they don't know what they're doing. If we want this community to grow, new players will have to be a part of it.

Besides, I doubt anyone here would use this system. Like you said, it would be lower-skill than TF2lobby, which most of us already don't use. That's fine though - again, the goal is getting new players into competitive play.

I don't think Valve would do it because unlike MVM, a competitive gamemode with banned weapons and is somewhat serious won't be as eye catching. So not many people would pay to play, especially when there is TF2 pug and lobbies, where the more experienced players would flow to and are free. But I think it would be great as it will get more pubbers into lobbies and PUGS, expanding the community. Unfortunately, Valve won't do it because there is no benefit to them unless hats are involved. And If hats were, how would you win them? You have to be selfless in sixes and highlander so if there were hats, people would go in and do the goals required to get said hat, making he/she less focused on the betterment of the team and the game itself but the hat. If Valve could find a way to implement this with them benefiting, that would be great, but I don't think they can or will do it. I don't mean to be negative but is's what I think I guess :/ If valve could just promote TF2 Lobby and extv and get more pubbers into comp that way, I think it would be very effective. BUt I just don't see this in-game lobby thing happening

..did you watch the video?

i dont think you have to have a banned items list. i dont even think you need class limits besides everything limited to 2. Not sure why some people think this is going to transition straight into esea sixes. let random pubbers come to their own conclusions as to which class and which items to use.

The idea is to let people feel comfortable with the 6v6 game mode thats all.

also add some paragraphs. your text wall is kind of hard to read

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding. This would not be something that anybody on this forum would want to use over pug.na. It would all be about getting exposure to the pubber audience.

I watched the video, and posted a response in the reddit thread from 3 or so months ago. I see a few problems, and some neat ideas.

Positives:
+ I think that the idea Sal pitched with the tickets is pretty good. Best that's come up so far. The idea of hats, misc and all that seems to never really get past the start up gate.

+It could potentially expose more people to Highlander, but I really can't see it working for 6v6.

+I could see portions of the community getting behind this.

Cons:

-I can't see it working for 6v6. Not because of the weapons, but more because of the play style. If this is used to show "pubbers" a different style of play, but there is not a lot of feedback, you're going to get people who don't know what their doing matched up with people who do, and it'll end up worse than lobbies where you have a scout try to run full time spy.
I think if anything, it could work for Highlander though, and honestly, I think that if UGC was fluffed up more to be stepping stone from pub to comp, this kind of system could work really well. But that would mean that UGC would need to change a bit.

-It would breed a different kind of... overly competitive jerk? I don't know how to describe it. The idea Sal had about using a ticket to get stats is something I could envision breeding an influx of players who get to the top, think they are amazing and shit talk (creating an environment no one wants to be in, making the match making system annoying) and then they transition to UGC or ESEA, and no one wants to be around them. That new "species" of player would be awkward to handle.

-In MvM the level of communication you need isn't the same as you would need in HL or 6v6. While I've already said it couldn't work in 6v6, even in HL (despite how chaotic it can be) there's some level of communication that's needed. While you can still argue that "oh MvM takes teamwork" yes. But it's not the same level of teamwork, or even vocabulary needed for playing competitively.

-I imagine that the matchmaking on rank or skill level would be disastrous. Even at that, I imagine that it would end up like one of those systems where too many factors would need to be put in. location for ping, "skill level", class, game type, map preference maybe even something like, "off classing or not". I just see the whole match making system needing too many factors to make games that people who actually would transition to competitive, would come back to.

Pretty awesome that people are starting to talk about this though. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

(also, the idea in the reddit thread is radically different than the idea salamancer posted. I actually loathe the idea proposed in the reddit thread)

i think sal was talking about this thread:

http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/11c8q7/can_we_talk_about_an_expansion_of_the_lobby/

A ticket system would definitely gather more attention, but it'd be too vulnerable to stacking/poor class choices/hacking or general messing around unless Valve took the time to implement league-style configs and give players information on how to play competitively. Chances are they won't do that, but we could try to have them let us use the configs of our choice. Would they be willing to put some time into connecting with competitive leaders to provide the right resources for players?

Despite the problems that could surround this, I think everyone would enjoy an easier system to find 12/18 players for a game directly through TF2. Valve could make some money off this through a ticket service that would pay for the extra servers and let the community teach new players, but I don't know if we can market it to them in the same way of MvM.

It's still worth a shot anyway, so let's explore this idea and maybe we'll find a way that benefits both Valve and the community.

how about this

when you buy a ticket you can enter the automated monthly league or tournament. you can enter in division 1-3 whenever you want with no qualifications but divisions 4-5 require you to get a certain place in one of the lower divisions. the top 3 teams of each division get special hats that have a description that says something like "*Team Name*: 6v6 div 1 champions October 2012". Maybe the hat could be a trophy ON YOUR HEAD O_O WO!

make it so that only premium players can play it so that it will have less people brand new to the game.

have videos that show you how to play your class right. something like the "learn" section on dota 2.

they could add team support Maybe valve could make it so you can make a steam community page but have a "competitive team" check box so that people can have consistent rosters. Your accomplishments could also be shown on your team page.

BRAINNNNNNNNNNNSTORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMM

But without experienced players, what direction would the new players have?

If this is implemented, I can see it turning into basically a pub with 12 people in it. If there is incentive for new players and top teams to use the new system, I think it will have a much longer lasting effect. The new players have people to take after and watch, while the good players maybe have an incentive to use it (hats, medals, possibly money? most likely not). That's why I think some sort of ladder system would be great.

Going off what swiper said, I don't think Valve would ever implement a gamemode that is limited to mostly scout, soldier, demo, and medic. TF2 is a great competitive game but the game was not created with the competitive aspect as a focus. People gravitate towards "maining" the class that suits their style the most and they have the most fun with. I'm fairly positive that Valve has no interest in implementing a gamemode where you don't have the opportunity to use all 9 classes.

This. There's no reason for any limits on weapons, and the only class limits would be a limit of 2 per class. From there, people who have no idea what 6v6 is will need to experiment with the classes they can play and figure out what works best.

GUYS, you're going too deep into something that's simple.

Everybody knows and have said before that one of the problems with comp tf2 is that there is a big gap between pubs (the only game mode tf2 officialy has) and 6s. We don't need pug.na level games, we don't need the players to have feedback about how much they suck, ALL WE NEED IS PLAYERS TO KNOW 6V6 EXISTS.

Once you get into 6v6 you want to get good, but each player will decide how much they want to tryhard. One of the reasons games like dota and lol have been succesfull is because they make you play the format that is played competitively from the begining, so then you can go on the web looking for guides, streams, frag videos or w/e and they are all about the same game mode, so you understand them.

I would love to see all of our casual pubbers playing 6v6, it doesn't matter if they suck, I want them to know and feel how you can play this game seriously and enjoy it.

Not imposing the 6v6 class limits with a strong persuasion to use cookie-cutter lineup would be disrespectful to the five years competitive TF2 has taken shape and grown ripe. You must understand that some of the choices the comp. aspect of this game has implemented in its rules and its metagame have been, to put it simply, arbitrary, and based on some kind of general, vague feeling back in the day of 'two demos might be a bit too much'.

This makes it an ugly compromise on Valve's part to accept as standard something they have not devised. To start over would be a catastrophic mistake. Sure, it would be nice and cuddly to let everyone play whichever way they wish and run two Phlog pyros to Badlands mid with a minisentry in the window and a Quickfix medic with two demoknights screwing around. You could open the floodgates to all the variables and intricate parts and counterparts the game has, but the only thing separating it from a pub would be the team size of six. It would be easier to achieve this by having the popular pub communities introduce 12-man servers.

Keep in mind that the normal, casual TF2 setting is already driven by objectives and encourages teamplay. 6v6, and this should be obvious, is way more than the name indicates. It has its history, its innovations, its leagues, its narratives, its highs and lows, its dramas, its merits and its deficiencies.

In old frag movies you can see a demoman defending Badlands last with the Chargin' Targe or Jh-AA- sniping spun-up heavies on Dustbowl. The game has gone a long way and you must, as terrible as it sounds, begin its learning process with restrictions and dogmas. Most of it is explainable in terms of mobility, damage output, area denial, versatility and predictability. The rest of it does not need to be bargained with.

It is absolutely important to appeal to pub players but do not, for fuck's sake, be sheepish and betray the game itself and turn your back to its progression; stand tall and say 'this is 6v6'. You must insist on its value and not sell your stock for the lowest offer you get.

what about the built-in support for highlander, and arbitrary weapon whitelists and classlimits?

obviously valve supports comp tf2; it's just not in money. most of the comments in the past of them refusing to get into 6s is that they won't want to put money into anything that /they/ aren't running. mostly that was understood as a dismissive thing against leagues and ladders for tf2 in general, but that's not the case.

I said this over in the Reddit thread, but this has pretty much been put in front of Valve in various ways for the last 2 years... there has been no response, other than them saying they value competitive play of their game, but they need 'solid ideas' presented by the community to them and 'feedback' on how things can change. They've been spoon-fed both on various occasions (even eXtine pitched this IN PERSON on 2 occasions) and all we've seen are more hats, more crates, and MVM.

It's my opinion that Valve's actions are clearly speaking louder than their words here, and they've made it perfectly transparent that TF2 is their cash cow and they'll be putting their competitive efforts into DOTA2 and CS:GO. If we want these things, they'll have to be community developed based around the restrictions Valve puts on the game and the engine... that's where our efforts need to be focused - once again, in my opinion.

#28. theres no way valve basically copies an esea ruleset onto one of their game modes. if you want to force people to play with certain classes its just not gonna happen. No way valve does that. Got to have some compromise.

It didn't take years for people to figure out the current lineup. If you force people to play a certain way theyre not going to do it. Let them come to the realization of what's best. its not that hard

you could do what Sal said and give people the choice of playing with 1 of 3 rulesets. 1 esea. 1 vanilla 1 whatever you want.

Honestly i think this kind of system could be implemented by valve for highlander. It makes sense for them. they don't have to take out any classes or items. If it's successful with highlander they might try it with 6v6. Or some of those highlander plays might join leagues like UGC and eventually run into 6v6.

edit: meant 28 not 29