There are two separate arguments going on in this thread right now, neither are related to the OP. Can we at least argue about whether pyro is viable in 6v6? or not?

Pyro is viable in 6v6.

So sal, who is a commentator and was never seriously involved in sixes, and a guy that publicly denounced medic play before he did it anyway and got good at it. Essentially someone who had been publicly bored of medic long before "the meta is stale" was ever mentioned on any site the forums have been on.

If you're implying that I falsely assume I'm part of the majority you are immediately positing that you instead are. However, someone who has been playing for less than a year and never outside of ugc 50% polyester/cotton blend probably is unaware of things that minute.

and beyond that if you haven't been around long for something to actually become stale, then you have to be assuming based on someone else's word.

http://i.imgur.com/wi9JQsk.jpg

Every class is viable in 6v6. They're just viable in different situations. Scout, Soldier, Demoman, and Medic are the "standard" loadout because they are either A) versatile, all-around fighters (Scout, Soldier) or B) incredibly useful at all times (Medic, Demo). The reasons classes like Heavy, Engineer, Spy, etc aren't run 24/7 because they are the niche classes--the polar opposite of the good all-around fighters like Scout and Soldier. Instead of the #yolo plays, we need to focus on whether or not Pyro is viable to run full time. The answer, as of now, is no. Pyro has only close-range viability and can get destroyed by a Scout. It's designed solely as a flanking class, and, without the speed of a Scout or the mobility of a Soldier, Pyro just gets beat long-term by having a Roamer or a Scout. The airblast has been explored in and out in the meta and the only ~reliable~ use it has is to airblast back ubers, and with the advent of the QF even that is being somewhat neglected.

Overall: Is Pyro Viable as a full-time class in 6v6? No.

Well I wasn't here a few months ago since I took about a year long break... Just got back into the game a couple weeks ago and I am slightly annoyed by the quick fix mainly because I'm not used to it yet.
So just saying that I'm not a hypocrite because I have never asked for change. And I'm still trying to get used to the quick fix so I'm definitely not looking forward to any game-changers yet

powerjack is only kind of viable as the melee for an HL pyro -- not sure which video but huey lewis did a good bit of discussion/testing of it on his stream.

if the speed boost was passive, i think it would be a totally different discussion at this point. in all honesty, if it did not make a difference at a passive 10% increase in speed (gas jockey set + 10% increase in bullet damage downside) why would it suddenly be viable when it has to be equipped and includes a 20% increase in damage taken from all sources?

do people just not think more than 2 seconds before making posts like this? do people really believe that if pyro was not a "viable" class in 6s before, with the old gas jockey set bonus (PASSIVE +10% speed increase, +10% increase in bullet damage) -- after the nerf of the set and an added requirement that you now must the powerjack equipped to get the additional 5% speed increase (15% total speed increase while active and a +20% increase in damage from all sources) it is suddenly something that should be considered?

do 6s players believe that the new powerjack (only useful when equipped) is a better option for a pyro than the old gas jockey set (and his passive attributes)?

serious question OP: did you even think before you clicked post?

67, sometimes its fun to talk about things related to video games that everyone plays, even if the discussion is kinda pointless.

While the subtler strategies have changed, the class and weapon selection is basically the same, and that's what people base it on. It's dumb, but the most superficial things are the ones people who don't play 6s base this argument on. Weird suicides and new holds don't seem that interesting for a couple of reasons. First being that they seem the exact seem to the unaccustomed, and second being that pub tf2 doesn't place much emphasis on positioning, which means the full gravity of an aggressive hold is lost on someone new to the game mode. We could be running double roamer with pocket scouts and people would still say the meta seems stale because they don't really understand the game to the same degree that people who play 6s a lot do.

As a Pyro main, here's what I have to say.

First of all, in lower level's of 6v6, almost anything is viable. Including full time Pyro. In higher divisions and playing with highly competent people, it's not. Pyro may seem like an over powered class or w/e, but it's not. People complain about it being annoying but it's simple to kill a Pyro if you know how to, and if you know how to, you are probably playing in higher divisions. It's easy to fight a Pyro if you know how to.

Pyro's really should ONLY BE USED for last points, and neutralizing damage output and ubers from the other team. In lower divisions, it's not that bad to have a nice pocket Pyro to help bombers not able to get to you.

I don't see the buff to the Powerjack being influential in running it as an offclass to mid in 6s. Pyro would get there only slightly later than the Medics and Soldiers without it and even then, he would still get to mid before the Roamer bombs in anyhow. Outside of the Powerjack, which has to be out for the speed bonus to take effect, Pyro has no other means of advanced mobility because last time I checked, Detonator jumping has not been buffed to how it was in TF2 Beta.

At best, it will work under the context of "holy shit they're running a Pyro to mid?" which might work only because it throws a wrench in what the enemy team intends to do at mid. Oooooooooor they're like "holy shit there's a Pyro at mid, which means no X", and then roll them because they don't have to worry about a second Scout or a Roamer/Pocket at the midfight. Either way, it's still one less combat class since Pyro cannot be as proactively involved in a fight as the Scout or Soldier, so it forces some passiveness, and Heavy would probably be a better offclass choice to compliment that style of play.

the class also neuters the other team's non-sniper long-ranged damage

don't think this is the problem

i would probably stop playing if a class with that bullshit airblast became viable in 6s

All sets were banned by ESEA. The Powerjack itself is not. Before the Powerjack was useless compared to the Axtinguisher. Now it's viable.

Also here is SPUF thread with a bunch of plat pyros (huey lewis, hard ass johnny, tmp, indivicivet) arguing about axtinguisher vs gas jockey. the arguiment is that the axtinguisher is better for killing heavies. there are no heavies in 6s. so the gas jockey would have been better, or so it seems to me.

Not that it matters because Jockey was nerfed into the ground, but still.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3128539

plat pyro pov

If pyro was played constantly in 6s i would quit this game for good

I honestly think those people that think that way are retarded.

Unless every month you change the fundamental mechanics of the game you won't get amazing new strats.

People find a method which works and then stick with it.

I've always felt that the tri-lane dota map is fucking retarded. Imagine if SCII, TF2, Quake, etc only had 1 map. But hey, you don't see me talking about shit that I have no idea on (because I don't play dota).

So why is it that idiots that don't understand the metagame can criticise the metagame for being stale just because it's superficially the same?

And does no one understand that at the end of the day, unless you drastically change the mechanics of the game every 3 months you aren't going to get people playing the game in wildly different configurations.

Are people who watch soccer bemoaning the fact that it's always the same? Are there chess players who are petitioning pawns being buffed to change the meta?

Why is a "stale meta" ok in "real" sports but as soon as it comes to TF2, EVERYTHING must change, otherwise it's boring? Am I missing something here?

this is going to work

yolo

paging hooey

Because robin walker talked out of his ass about the meta-game and how he wishes it was like dota despite there being massive mechanical and genre differences. Unskilled players borrowed this opinion on the grounds that they thought it was accurate and started flooding the forums with posts about WHAT CAN CHANGE THE META

As someone that has played both tf2 and dota competitively it's offensively stupid on so many levels that it causes me physical agony.

Guys plasma has theoretically the highest dps in quake why don't people just get good with it and change the meta-game?

There's lots of reasons, most of them stemming from the divide between pub and comp play. Most people view TF2 as a zany game where anything goes and because of the new weapons and updates that occur they think that any changes in the game are gonna be big and accompanied by large swathes of that class for a few days. They simply don't see things like positioning and bombings as important, or a "large meta change" because they're not used to noticing the subtler changes because they don't occur in pubs.

As a Plasma/Nailgun MAIN in QL/QW/VQ3/VQL/CPM/WSW/SkullTag I am rampantly offended at the idea of you comparing pyro->plasma as the APPROPRIATE comparison are MEDIC NEEDLES and as a future ESEA Pyro/Spy/Heavy MAIN I would ask you to delve further into team fortress 2 strategies before informing the community of the objective 'futility' of the classes
check your standard rollout privilege

why dont you try running it with your 6's team and see if it works before asking everyone else if its viable?

i dont understand why this needs discussion if you can try it on your own with your team? if you dont have a team get 4 other players and a plat pov pyro and try it.

i'm not sure how switching to melee and then switching back to your primary and secondary at midfights has increased the skill ceiling. Do you also think the GRU has increased the heavy skill ceiling?

also please dont ruin pugs by just playing pyro the entire time and then going "oh man i had to see if its viable stop being so serious"

anything is viable in a pug

It's kind of hard to try this out when playing in a league where most unlocks, including these, aren't allowed in 6v6 (in my case etf2l) but maybe you weren't aware of how other leagues work, or maybe you didn't notice my swedish flag pointing towards the fact that I'm probably NOT playing in ESEA where this would be allowed (though you can still have a swedish flag and live in NA so it might be understandable).

And I'm not really interested in playing pugs etc. with 200 ping in order to try this out, thus I felt that this would be the right forum to ask you guys since most of you probably play in an environment where this would be possible.

Yes I think that the GRU has increased the heavy skill ceiling (though not allowed in 6v6 in ESEA as far as I know so your comparison is unfortunately not that relevant), but the powerjack is still very different and very much less punishing than the GRU in many ways. What I meant with the skill ceiling being raised, if just a little, is that the powerjack with it's speed bonus adds another element to the pyro play which means that the player has to spend more time in order to truly "master" the class, in order to unlock its full potential.

And one more thing, half of the posts here discuss whether pyro is viable or not, which only leads me to the conclusion that people aren't that interested in fully reading the OP since I clearly stated that I asked people to discuss if running pyro FULL TIME is viable now with the powerjack.

I edited the OP to emphasize this.

The simple answer is no, there's so many other things about pyro that have already been stated in this thread that being able to get to mid faster with the powerjack doesn't make up for. So no, he's not any more viable to run full time than he was before.

pyro fulltime will never be viable because im pretty sure most household pets can play demo at a level where it has more impact than a pyro when youre holding/starting mid/etc

die 6s scum

respect my pyro pronouns

http://i.imgur.com/uHIPGc6.jpg