couldn't you argue that smaka could more naturally play medic when using the qf most of the time? it focuses less on the med-only mechanics in hitscandodging and critheals and uses more general skills like airstrafing. i've never tried the weapon so i couldn't say, but makes sense to me.

The problem is that the meta chosen to deal with the qf is running a heavy. Heavy, although works wonders in defending against the qf, is slow and therefore it's harder to push out as a team. The counter to heavy is a sniper, therefore that's two players which are slowed down due to the qf. It's a fun medigun to use, and I think if the meta had developed differently it would still be in ESEA.

Just my two cents.

All the gullywash matches were awful and boring to watch, HRG vs Mixup was just the worst of the bunch. Even if gullywash is stalematey, it's usually pretty entertaining to watch, because it's a map where teams can swap between defending their last to pushing the opponents multiple times in a single round, often just off the momentum of a single exchange. And it wasn't just gullywash, none of the other matches were very great either.

Lan was just not the best environment to be testing out such a radically altered weapon.

Everything about this medigun is asking for stalemates.

It's uber is great at defending but pretty shit at attacking hardened positions.
You have to use it to win the midfight which usually dedicates your medic meaning you will be pushing into a turtled team at last something the QF uber sucks at.
No need to risk yourself building uber so there are fewer opportunities for roamers to get in on the medic meaning fewer advantages to push off of.
Roamer has no buff to bomb to help break the stalemate + the the QF jump ability makes it almost impossible to divebomb a aware team even with team coordination.
The QF uber is counterable with Heavys and Snipers so obviously means more Heavys and Snipers which = slower games.

Thats not even getting into how this thing makes a mockery of learning proper heal mechanics.

This thing needs banned with the force of 1000 suns.

In Europe you guys played with no unlocks at all.

So with the introduction of 1 unlock it basically made the game even worse than vanilla in terms of stalemating and effectively made all the other unlocks irrelevant. I'm pretty sure this is a better argument for banning the QF.

And a 3-2 score is not that low. The last cap got capped 5 between both teams as compared to only once at this LAN.

Holy shit, someone speaks with some sense.

For the longest time, no one had an issue with gully being shit, but people were more or less silent. People also seemed ok, in fact pretty hyped, about the quick-fix. Suddenly, after Slin just so happens to say QF should be banned in front of 3k people, suddenly everyone blames the QF and not a map that is known for being stalematey.

The QF, in my opinion, is seriously awesome and a ton of fun to watch, not only because of the gun itself but of the changes game-wide it brings. Seriously, I've said this a ton of times, but Plat pulling out the Conch and it being a legit, solid counter was fucking a m a z i n g. People were sneering about that match, saying "tsk, this is what Robin wanted huh" when the answer is in fact YES. In what world before the QF would a play with the Conch even be dreamed of? The play was shadowed by Gullywash being Gullywash, but thats the kind of shit we need to see, thats the kind of shit Robin and Valve wanted, more weapon variety.

nvm. mike is meany

It was just kinda dumb to allow it mid season, but I don't think it should be necessarily banned either. Didn't Vaccinator get banned at the very start of S12 when it came out (though it was renewed)?

guys they made republics so stupid people arent allowed to vote

if you want better management of the game dont let open players have equal representation as ruwin or something

i hope this makes sense oh god the -frags

let it happen. The minus frags make you strong

I believe what Enigma tells me to believe.

Also I agree anyway.

I'm sorry, but this is going to be a bit of an essay. Don't read it!

What the European 30 minute timer does is simple. When time is running out, the losing team has to become more aggressive and take more risks to try and pull back the score. The winning team gets the option of attempting to slow the game down in order to run the clock down. This means teams might have to start making pushes without waiting around for ubers or players to respawn.

The only effective difference between the US and EU match timers is that the US has technically set a 1 hour map timer (ignore halftime for now). This gives teams no sense of urgency so if they have an advantageous position that they can hold, they will do so until they are fully ready to push. The only reason why the American system 'appears' to produce faster gameplay is because people would be bored as fuck running out such a long map timer, so they make pushes just because 'someone has to'.

Take an example of badlands mid. Two even skilled teams. Score is currently - Team A (1), Team B (0).
Team A has the mid point, Team B is holding at their choke. Timeleft is 25 minutes. Round Clock is at 9:00 left. Ubers are even. Who should make the next move?

In theory if nobody moves, the round will stalemate after 9 minutes. This would be advantageous for team B as they would gain ground. But Team A risk losing more ground if their push fails. If the round stalemates, Team A lose half a capture point (mid is neutral) but if they fail their push, they lose a whole capture point (as B will surely secure middle). Of course Team A have a chance of winning their push, in which case they gain ground, but since they are currently winning in score, this isn't such a big deal. Team B could push! If they win they will gain some ground, but they would gain a little bit of ground for free if they just stay put. They could also lose ground if their push fails which is more likely because the holders of mid have a big advantage (forward spawns and choke point advantage). Team B could take a high risk, but what is the point if they could wait 9 minutes and gain that ground for free with zero risk?

At this point I would suggest that neither team has much motivation to push. Each team does have slight motivations, but I believe they kind of balance each other out.

Now how would that play out if the map had 8 minutes left?

Team A have absolutely zero motivation to push. They win the game if nobody moves. They are also in a strategic stronghold (mid, enemy has to push through chokes). Team B will lose the game if they do not move, so they HAVE to push.

Strategically there isn't actually motivation for a team to make a push if the map time limit isn't going to influence the result. The only strategic reason people do make a push in this case is either because:

- They have some sort of advantage (a pick / health / positioning)
- They would lose ground if they don't (because of round stalemates)

However, the more likely reason why people often make a push in this scenario is simply because:

- They are competitive computer gamers who would rather play the game than pick the optimum strategy. It is boring as hell to sit there. I'd rather attempt a push if the odds are 60% against us, and hope some better DM skill makes up the 11% needed to take the capture point, than sit there waiting for 9 minutes.

With the European timer, this later scenario comes around a lot quicker, so you find that in a stalematey game, you get 10/20 minutes of low action, followed by 10 crazy minutes where teams are forced to make a play or actually lose.

But with the American timer, people make pushes because they are bored! Games rarely go up to the point where the time limit comes into play because it's such a long game timer that nobody can be fucked to wait around for it to end.

Of course, when either money, an abnormal level of pride / ego boost is on the line in some really high profile matches, things change. Teams aren't as likely to enter less favorable scenarios when there is an option of making them more favorable without any risk (waiting for a clock to tick down).

As Enigma said in the original post:

I would agree with what he's wrote. The high stakes part for me is the key here. Usually people are willing to take risks that do not favor them, just for fun! But when you enter a scenario when winning is everything, the game's flaws start to creep out. The map layout plays a role too, shifting that chance of success percentage more in one direction. I'd would also like to add to what he wrote and suggest that the American timer ruleset is more damaging in these high-stakes environments for the reasons set above.

Last thing here. I'm not suggesting that the American rule set is bad as it is just attempting to put emphasis on reaching the score-cap rather than waiting for the timelimit to expire (which is does in most games and that can often be more exciting to witness insane comebacks etc..), but I just wanted to point out to the guy I've quoted that I actually think the American rule set encourages stalemate play in matches where people give a fuck, much more than the European rules do.

As for the Quickfix... I don't think it should be banned. I think it should be exploited as much as possible. If we can say to Valve, "This gun is being used 95% of the time and teams who don't use it lose", then it's more weight for them to make chances to it that would balance it. Remember, we don't want to nerf it to a point where it is not viable for it to be used. I think it's better to start with something OP and then tone it down to where it is still used frequently, but isn't the 'go-to' weapon of choice. By the sounds of things (at least in NA), it is becoming that.

Sorry for the essay. Maybe I should start a blog instead.

I don't know if it's just Gullywash. There have been plenty of highlevel games on Gullywash that had high scores. S15 Infused vs Broder for example ended in a 4-3. That's 7 caps in 30 minutes (they also played Badlands that evening and it ended in the same score). As Arx has mentioned this is probably because of the timelimit that actually forces you to go and make some plays. It being Broder also helps, they aren't a team that sits around to twiddle their thumbs. Considering Heavy + Quickfix is so strong and Gullywash has always been a map where you can run a Heavy it is just a combination of factors that slowed down the game so much. Then you have to choose: ban the Heavy or ban the Quick-fix. Banning the QF is probably the best move out of those two if you want to have any chance at attracting some players to the game.

I know Americans have a different sense of scale to Euros but there's this area on Gullywash that we call "big door". Didn't see anybody trying a switch push there.

All it took was one gully last standoff (which totally never happened before) and suddenly a bunch of knee jerkers want the thing banned. At a time where Comp TF2 is crying out for innovation and fresh strats you guys want to ban one of the most interesting and tactically fun weapons in recent history.

Qfix is one of those weapons where its very rewarding if you can use it right, but ass punishingly terrible if you get it wrong. just because its new and it scares some people because they think it will kill 6v6. its exactly that kind of narrow minded additude that kills 6v6 and makes it inaccessible to valve or anyone considering getting into comp tf2.

imagine walking into a game where you have a whole host of cool and interesting items. but as soon as you reach for one someone slaps your hand away saying "no, you cant use that one, you can only pick these" and he points to 4 or 5 perfectly functional, but rather boring options.

is it any wonder the TF2 comp scene is so compounded with an attitude like that.

i had fun playing with QF

i didn't have fun playing against heavy

Consider, for a moment, if that sniper had landed the headshot on the heavy. we probably wouldnt even be discussing this. qfix wouldnt have saved him, it might have even killed him with the lack of overheal.

Consider for a moment that decent players dont idle in sniper lanes and that trying to get a good sniping angle during a stalemate is often suicidal.

I don't understand why it was allowed mid season. This item can very well change the landscape of the 6v6 metagame, but that's no reason to allow it mid season. I'm not sure if this is the correct way to put it, but it basically forces teams to forget what they were practicing to learn how to use an item and form strategies with it in a short period of time. I don't think it allowing it after the season started would have been as big of a deal had it been near the start of the season, but the fact is it wasn't.

As for having it banned or not, I say to leave it unbanned until near the end of the off season so people can learn about the item and what it brings better than stalemates on a map already prone to stalemates, then have a vote between invite captains.

people make pushes because they are bored!

This might be the most retarded statement i've ever read about tf2. American rules DO produce faster gameplay because its not viable strategy to stall at 20 minutes and 1 second into the map. Theres a big difference between getting 5 rounds in 60 minutes compared to a 30 minute timer, European rules are terrible and it amazes me they still haven't changed them.

The QF wasn't the sole cause of that match being so stalemated. When you have 2 teams of incredibly close skill/experience in a situation where it is better to play safe, the QF was just the cherry on top of an already slow pace. When money/titles are on the line, teams will play more cautious regardless of the medi gun being used (see enigma's examples). A semi-decent counter for QF is running a heavy due to concentrated dmg output....the problem being the heavy's speed of course. Gullywash last is hard to push as is...watching a heavy push last, or the dreaded heavy vs heavy at last + QF was just painful to see.

The QF has a lot of viable features that i'd love to see stay. The quick overheal and the reduced knockback (which correct me if i'm wrong, is finally a nice counter to being gayed by a pyro at choke points - which i hate seeing even more than heavy's) are great adds. The best part in my opinion is the increased movement it gives the medic. This allows for an entire new style to play the class - the medic can choose to be aggressive or defensive with many more options while healing different classes. This is the best change the game has seen in quite sometime imo.

What i personally don't like, is the insane superheal it gives the medic. It does appear to be overpowered in it's current state. Having to have 2 or 3 people focus the medic to try and kill him (only to fail) is pretty insane...especially while having to fight whoever is getting flashed with the QF uber.

Remember this video??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBJnfB7O9qw&hd=1

I mean the guy domes the medic 3 times in 5 seconds and he doesn't die...that's just crazy lol. A good fix to this is either cap the medic's health (no overheal to med with quickfix and retain heal speed), or reduce the heal speed to the medic during QF uber. Krtiz is a counter, but the current QF charge speed (added with the fast heals) can allow the QF team to play ultra aggressive and get to a med much easier before the kritz is charged...especially if they know the team is running kritz (just takes 1 good call at mid). The team running QF will almost always have the advantage.

I don't necessarily agree with the ban, but i can understand where some people are coming from. Everyone freaked out after 1 match, which really should not have been judged as the sole example. I would love to see the weapon tweaked as it can really add an entire new dimension to competitive play.

Either make respawn times longer or make a new forwards to make pushing out of last easier

It didnt help that you were sitting as a heavy in chokepoints for half the lan

eh, what would have happened if he got a headshot on the medic who had uber? same result.

not really a valid concern imho

people who don't play comp or play it at a really low level seem to want it unbanned. yet seemingly a rather big majority of the people who play it at a higher level (considering the low level people posting high open is "higher level" here) want it banned.

low level people also have a tendency of standing around letting 70 percent uber advantage slip out of their hands. low level people want to unban the gunslinger so that engi is viable. never listen to low level people.

might seem rude but tbh i'm really tired of this discussion; you could argue that the decision to ban it was rushed but it's a retarded weapon (in its current state).

Except QF is not uber (nor would a sniper be aiming at an uber medic...)

The medic may not be invincible but they are incredibly hard to drop. Seriously that's 450 dmg from one player in a matter of seconds. The medic is able to re-heal the full buff within a second between each headshot.

There is no major risk to running QF at the moment in it's current state, and if it wasn't banned i would see no reason not to use it more often then uber/kritz. Like i said, i like QF and personally i wouldn't have voted for the ban. However, i do believe it needs to be tweaked for more of a balance that the other medi guns have.

except thats the dumbest thing ive seen because you wouldnt try and headshot a medic who is ubered because you cant stop that mid-charge... you can stop a quickfix and kritz mid-charge by killing the medic, so shooting the medic still makes sense.

edit: phaser come on dont do this

Uh huh... This is incorrect. What you are assuming is that the game is faster up until the point where the clock comes into play. I consider it to be the opposite. When the clock comes into play, the winning team has the option to attempt to slow the game down, but the attacking team only has the option to get points back. They can't sit and wait for anything so they have to make pushes.

When time left isn't a factor, teams have time to build ubers, wait for picks, wait for players to respawn before they attempt pushes. Your goal is to gain ground in the game. If you are currently down one or more capture points, then you can gain ground without ever pushing the enemy. All you need to do is stalemate the round and you gain all the ground you've lost up to the mid point. Obviously attacking team would want to attack in this scenario (because a stalemate means they lose ground), but if the attacking team is currently winning the match, and there is a timelimit (30 mins or 60 doesn't matter) then they wouldn't want to either. This is the scenario I described in my above post.

What I was implying with that 'bored' statement, is that in a match where there is no time limit, there would mathematically be scenarios where both teams would not want to make a push because pushing is less favorable than not pushing (not just for the outcome of the round, but the outcome of the whole match). But that would mean sitting around doing nothing until the round stalemated (if we want to be technical, the team holding mid would never want it to stalemate but would want to make a final attacking push at a time when it would be impossible for the other team to cap mid should the push fail although with overtime it could be capped at anytime).

But people aren't always fussed about what is mathematically favorable, they want to play the computer game, and since the mathematics can be influenced significantly more by ones death-match ability and team fight positioning, teams will often ignore the 'base risk' and just make a push because they can't be bothered to sit around and wait for the small (but still evident) mathematical advantage. When money is on the line, people will be much more reluctant to push when they are at a disadvantage (even if it's small). This is what Enigma was on about in his first post.

change everything

:-D

Don't worry i +fragged you downpour, i hope that helps.