I agree. Most people I talked to didn't want to go backwards, they voted for other as in to fix the current bot.

where was the vote?

Why would they do this? It was looking like it would be a good way for new players to learn how to play and for less experienced players to get some practice. Now it might as well not exist.

I love how adding in tf2.pug gives you a tf2.pug.na message.
[17:50:48] -Pug-Messenger3- Welcome to #tf2.pug.na! The channel has certain quality standards, and we ask that you have a good amount of experience and understanding of the 6v6 format before playing here. If you do not yet meet these requirements, please type !remove and try another system like tf2lobby.com

The tf2.pug bot was broken. I'm fine with the pug.na bot until that one is in working condition.

wasn't the purpose of a new bot to ensure that everyone who wanted to play, could play?

what's the point of two channels running the identical bot?

So the fat kids can fat kid people.

I wonder what exactly broke though. It seemed simple enough (queue 4 classes and then protect the ones directly in the queue).

Seriously, the other bot should just be fixed. It was actually a good idea for getting new blood into 6v6. No reason to have 2 circlejerk.na channels.

Unlike pug.na I've noticed that most pugs start with 12 people, because more people are willing/able to captain. The only differences in the channels are skill level and less fat kids.

opposing cinq is opposing the progress of tf2

pot, for you this is a non issue but for me it is. I did design the original bot that is very similar to pingu's one. This design come from a year and half experience running the channel and listening to everybody suggestions. I discussed so many time with nice guys and decent players that were getting left out many times in a row. I got very concerned about this issue. The problem is, it took me a very long time to figure out a design that would actually work. A design that would let us have competitive captain games while being consistent to the guys who are expecting to play at least in the next 30 minutes.

The whole situation is very frustrating for me because when I left the channel I suggested to the guys who were going to work on the channel to fix a bunch of issues while I am completing other improvements that I was almost done with. Instead pingu chose to completely rewrite the bot in a different architecture and a different language. Not only the new upcoming changes I was going to bring were no longer compatible but I had to re-learn a bot while I had one that I was very comfortable working with. This thing is going to happen again and it's very frustrating for me. It's like, I am giving sound advise regarding where things should head to but the people are ignoring my suggestions and do their way.

Also, it is not true that most PUGs start with 12 people, a PUG exceed the limit when it waits for captains and medics. Most of the time people are getting left out, no matter what is the level of the players added. Just this afternoon I added without knowing it was the PUG.NA bot. I added as demo, we had about 18 players added. I didn't get picked during the captain round. It's OK, I can see why, I am not as good as the other demos. But I really wanted to play demo. Though, the big issue there is, I am not even guaranteed to play the next game as demo, because other better demos will join and more players than needed are going to be added up when captains are going to pick the players.

Here's a discussion I had with Fog later tonight:
pepperfan: what is the list of the most critical bug to fix?
pepperfan: there wasn't a thousand
pepperfan: like
pepperfan: the people removing before the game starting
pepperfan: what else?
Gettin' Foggy Wit It: Gettin' Foggy Wit It: like what exactly was wrong with the pug bot?
narf: captain mode tends to fail about 1/2 the time
narf: it fails to put a server back in rotation
narf: some bugs related to !endgame that were due to my changes (it left people in a semi limbo state and started a game with 3 demos)
Gettin' Foggy Wit It: the last one being part of his re-organization

Two of the critical bugs that made them stop using the current system is related to bugs they caused themselves. The bug regarding the server not going back in the rotation is related to the endgame they broke. And they are saying my bot is buggy as shit. Of course it had bugs, it was a very quickly written prototype to show that a picking system like this should works and should be good for the community.

The other critical bug was caused by a typo. You can see it there: https://github.com/550/tf2ib/commit/f080b6faef7915776152bf9fd34aff24713b92bc They had a full month to fix such a simple bug and they didn't even fix it. Their solution was to move away from my code? I mean, come on. How hard are they even trying?

Anyway, things should work now and I hope we are going to keep using my code because I think it's in the best interest of everybody if I can keep implementing the ideas I have for this project. I might not have a lot of time this summer but I should have more this winter.

Cinq dunking on the admins.

Also, the devs should take debuging 101 if they didn't bother checking the PUG start conditions.

irc is a huge hurdle blocking growth of new players. I guess this kind of comes from left field, but we could really use a matchmaking system within tf2lobby that uses donated servers. You would see massive growth in 6v6 popularity. lobby stacks are toxic and are what make lobbies unenjoyable

If lobbies had mmr and admining to prevent people from faking/cheating in games, lobby stacks would happen a lot less. Would take 100x the effort though.

And IRC isn't a big hurdle. Anyone who really wants to try TF2 has to know about IRC eventually and really just part of the process.

Then again, what about ESEA. Maybe free TF2 ESEA pugging would make ESEA's business explode for TF2. I really think that if ESEA could try to get the lobby people on board they'd be able to get TF2 servers occupied and people subscribing.

randoom question at the wrong place: why don't you have a blue name cinq?

it's a hurdle for all of competitive tf2 lol

How is going to atf2.org any more complicated than going to tf2lobby.com? Also there's a simple solution to the fat kid issue. Make it so that if you're left out of the a pug, you're guaranteed to play in the next one. I think adding to the pug.na bot is much better than creating a new one altogether.

Meant to try comp TF2, my bad.

Cinq make a new channel. I'll provide the servers. I loved the idea of the #tf2.pug because I saw so many people from lobbies stepping up to play and pug. They weren't afraid of not getting picked because of the stupid circlejerk that goes on in pug.na. I'm all for full time lobby players getting out of lobbies to play more IRC pugs.

I said until that one was fixed, because it had to be restarted by an admin after every pug and a lot of the features didn't actually work.

we're using pingu's bot and adding random pugs to it...much more stable, more features, easier to manage for other admins if me or fog aren't around, the list goes on...

#22 but is it better for the newer players? The message when you add for the first time is pretty discouraging.

already been changed browny

I fixed an other issue. The servers weren't sending the substitute information to the main bot. I solved the problem by reinstalling sourcemod and restarting the servers. Again, an other issue blamed on my bot when it wasn't after some verification on my part.

I feel like the channel's been going real slow ever since they got rid of cinq's bot.

I've also noticed that the substitute command still isn't working.

I fixed the issue on my bot, not theirs, and they aren't running mine.

Yea, I just wanted to point out that pingu's bot has issues as well.
Bad communication on my part.

/me slaps pingu's bot around a bit with a large trout.