We know for a fact that if we were to switch leagues that invite in its entirety wouldn't die, even if even a handful of players quit the game to go seek esports glory elsewhere before returning back when they realize they aren't going to make any money anywhere else either. Are we afraid that we won't have high level tf2 to watch anymore? Are people still clinging to the esports dream?

Since the very beginning ESEA has been propped up by the community as the "official" league of TF2 pretty much solely because they were the only ones putting money into it. In the wake of newer leagues willing to do the same, we've stuck to ESEA primarily out of habit but also for the reason that most people play the game competitively, competition. I know for a fact that's why I've played in this shitty league for way too many seasons now, it's where the best teams are.

Considering there is only ever 2 or three teams in this game that can even hope to compete at LAN during any given season, I have to ask why we still see it as necessary to have when it more or less just sinks money from the community into the pockets of the players that are holding us hostage to this system. If we are seriously afraid that they'll quit and suddenly take our ABILITY TO SPECTATE HIGH LEVEL TF2 hostage, then I'd like to remind you that main as it stands right now has been infinitely more enjoyable to watch than the life-support season invite has had.

Why would we subject ourselves to another season of a quarter of all teams dying in part due to premium fees, the fucking absurd ESEA rules that are forced on us because we ostensibly play in the same league that hosts CS matches, and combat scheduling for shitty servers on a client that doesn't work.

How about this: we make a league, and instead of making a fucking donation drive to fly 24 players to LAN, we make a donation drive for the prize pool so that 100% of everyone's cash flow to the league is immediately repaid to the players. Are the invite players you're so worried about quitting going to do it if there's the still cash on the line? I'd go so far as to say you might even be able to drum up some outside attention for competitive TF2 if you go out and contact some of those GAMING JOURNALISM sites and tell them about why we're making a league and how shitty ESEA has been. We could even split the prize pool and say that half the money donated to the community league goes to a charity of the winner of the league's choice.

I don't think many people in this community honestly cheat in any sort of official setting tbh, but I've played a number of UGC matches on my own server with no STV running and there was never any sort of oversight. If UGC can provide working servers for every match, then that's one thing, but half the UGC servers I've played on have been really stuttery to the point of unplayability. Not that that is much different from a typical ESEA match server, but at least those felt official.

cheats that work at the driver level require driver level access to be dealt with

aint that complicated folks

are there even active cheaters in tf2 anymore? the sentiment i get from everyone i ask is that there isnt

send me a pm if ur a scared baby

i have a lot of concerns about ugc and cevo.

with said influx of players, who would be deciding what division teams play in? would the divisions mimic the current divisions in esea? if a "sandbagging" team is in a lower division will they get put in a division they won't do as well in? or do we all just start in a lower division and then move up?

personally i like the fact that you can pull an stv from any match that has been played. the lack of consistent casting for divisions other than invite are made up for by this feature. i feel like there are enough statistic services out there that show way more useful data than the current esea model, and could possibly be implemented on match pages for either of those leagues.

Well the UGC 6s market doesn't really exist in platinum, most of the teams that could or should be legitimately in platinum have moved to esea.

The lack of client and dedicated servers *could* be changed. I believe STV recordings being done automatically is another thing that *could* be addressed.

TBH after reading the requisite legal docs for ESEA, even if we wanted to stay with ESEA they may be screwed anyways.

After you admit guilt to 1 state, and demonstrate the ability to pay, what is to stop the other states from coming after you?

That's all I really care about to be honest. Even if it's not a client, just playing on a dedicated match server would be preferable to what I've seen in my (very limited) UGC experience.

The ESEA client has been responsible for about 0 total bans in the history of competitive TF2. Anyone caught by it for TF2 (which is limited to a single player to my knowledge, infamous) was so obvious that they could only ever be mistaken for being legit if you assumed they were simply the luckiest case of parkinson's ever.

"we" gets thrown around a lot

it typically translates to "anyone but me" in regards to putting forth actual work

Why? Everything I've heard about ESEA servers is complaints about unavailability, high and inconsistent pings, and general shittiness.

In UGC you get to use your own servers, and when failing that UGC provides some perfectly acceptable ones to use. I can't possibly see how anyone can believe that removing client from the equation, dedicated servers can be preferable.

I legitimately think that this time is different. I've had multiple people contact me on steam for ideas since making this thread and with the potentiality for the demise of ESEA at the hands of state legislatures being considered, it is long since time we started talking about viable alternatives.

are you personally putting your life on hold to put in the hours required to build a viable alternative league in time for next season?

no?

anyone?

talk is great but no one in this thread has any appreciation for the tremendous amount of time it takes to do anything of significance

i always try to look at heal stats for matches thinking they'll be there, fuck me sizzling stats has spoilt me

also yea after this type of thing goes down, people always talk a lot, usually the ones getting things done dont even post until theyre introducing something new...

I've done it before and would be willing to do it again for at least several months.

where do you even start with creating a league? I'm happy to help in any way that I can, and I'd put way too much of my own time and money into getting something started, but I hoenstly don't even know who to talk to or what to do.

http://etf2l.org/ the answer to all your needs

This might be a good option.

http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14024-etf2l-north-american-division

while i understand that this has been standard practice for scrims and ugc, i can't help but feel like someone is going to abuse this. i seem to remember a certain team that logged IP addresses on the server they scrimmed on, and then getting DDoSed that same week (coincidentally OBVIOUSLY). i know i don't need to talk to you of all people about that issue so i'm just going to let that lie.

i know UGC releases cfgs in an attempt to create some kind of standard for servers being played on, but i also know there is absolutely no way they can enforce that you use that cfg.

personally i dont see what all the bitching is about. Servers are better than they were last season by a long shot, there are more servers than last season for matches. Valve updates tf2, and esea takes forever to update their servers? ok anyone realize that it takes a few minutes for their own server to update, let alone how many that ESEA has that have to update? On top of that they have a fully automatic system that allows us to schedule matches etc. Quick fix bad: everyone bitches about it during LAN, it gets banned afterwards, then everyone bitches about it being banned without "asking the community?" Yes we did start late with a really rocky start to the season, but it seems to have gone pretty smoothly since. if anyone can actually tell me why ESEA is shit WHILE realizing what they actually provide for us, go for it

http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14006-meatshot-8-vol-5

I don't see how making everyone from ESEA go into UGC makes sense. You'd have to make a few other divs in ugc 6s since Platinum (the highest div) is basically the same as open. I guess you could have the UGC admins make separate higher divs above Platinum but in that case it would make so much more sense switching over to CEVO instead. So far cevo only has one div, just add 2-3 divs (IM,Main,Invite) and the league would be good to go.

UGC is considered a much more newb friendly league anyway in terms of 6s. CEVO could easily become the new ESEA, but ofc without all of the bullshit.

That is one of those things that could be changed london.

Basically what I proposed to forn, is that UGC create a separate UGC 6s league specifically to accommodate ESEA players.

That's the easy part.

Everybody's divisions and changes would be carried from ESEA s15, new teams would start in the new bottom league (open equivalent), rules and etc could be negotiated or carbon copied.

Payments, servers, and cash prizes could then be integrated over time *potentially* (it's not something you can just say yes to over 1 steam convo without any real research lol) while still maintaining the free UGC league + medals and etc.

Have you actually read the last few threads on this forum?
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14006-meatshot-8-vol-5
All that you talked about is just a fraction of the issues, these news were the last straw

Well, in order to have the league provide servers, you've either got to a) have the league maintain a large pool of servers for match nights or b) be able to provision servers for match time.

Most leagues practice a) in a limited fashion, expecting most teams to get their own server since they'll use it to scrim. ESEA does it fully. The problem with a), however, is that it's expensive to maintain servers that only end up getting used for a few hours a day.

There isn't a league that does b) yet, because it's a bit more complicated than just running and doling out servers, but if done right it'd be more stable and less expensive than running a pool of servers. This is the option that I've been looking into for a while, and while I do have a pretty good understanding of how to get it done, I just haven't been able to pull through and build it yet. The cool thing with this, however, is that if you can get this up and running, it's relatively trivial to bring back most of the features that ESEA did right (notably absent: the ever-coveted LAN and an anti-cheat client).

etf2l and UGC have already said they'll do this. You can stay with ESEA and maybe get another LAN next season. No one is stopping you.

You're forgetting the client back doors and monitoring even after you close the program or uninstall the client

etf2l really seems like the best option to me
the level of play is more diverse than UGC (where the highest div is akin to open or even lower), the league wants to and is very interested in expanding to north america.
So long as they are offering this, I will definitely be interested and likely will give it a shot if it shows up around the start of next season.

§ 232: they have always been crooked as fuck

§ 232: i hope they get enough evidence to shut down the whole site
§ 232: hopefully 1 of them has childporn on their computers
§ 232: they dont deserve any of the corporate funding or the idiots that pay them money cuz they think they will be professional gamers with a sponsor from nvidia and some other gamer shit
§ 232: give us money while we con you even more

If etf2l made a NA division and used NA rule sets in terms of unlocks, class bans, and round limit, it sounds pretty appealing (at least to me).

But then there's the discussion of euro rule set vs. na rule set and that's always fun.............

People often bring up the idea of all of invite refusing to play in some attempt to force ESEA's hand, which sounds ridiculous on paper. However, it's unclear as to what would actually happen in that scenario (assuming it's even a possibility in the first place)

The biggest concern is that ESEA will drop TF2, but that wouldn't be the end of the scene all at once. You still have a tight-knit community with hundreds of people eager to play and plenty of alternative leagues to accommodate them.

LAN is obviously ESEA's biggest draw right now, and nobody really wants to go without it. Even so, I doubt much of invite will quit right away if it doesn't happen for a season or two. It's a huge financial hassle for the invite teams attending and only one of many goals for those who aren't.

If anything the casting staff of TF.TV and VTV are the ones hurt most by the absence of LAN, considering how important high-quality casts of star-powered matches are to growing the game. Covering a big event like LAN from season to season is what brings the community together and draws in new players, and the loss of that opportunity is what we should be most concerned about should LAN not happen. It's unlikely that any of the alternative leagues will be able to provide a LAN event any time soon, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered at all.

The alternative leagues might look dinky compared to ESEA right now, but take a moment to consider what it would be like if you ran one of them and ESEA stopped being an option. Suddenly there's a HUGE untapped market in the displaced community, and it's up to you to provide the highest quality league around or lose all those numbers to the guys that do. Competition like that is what the community needs in its leagues, else you get something like, well, ESEA.

this is my biggest concern with etf2l. if the NA ruleset is the same as etf2l i would probably not bother playing.