hoolii have a question for all of you
There's actually a really noticeable difference between being killed up close by somebody, which you generally have the ability to react to, and being killed from across the map the moment you step into view.
I believe Robin Walker even touched on this a bit when talking about the design of TF2, when they were showing the kill cam of where the sniper was; the basic principle is that getting killed in one hit from across the map teaches you very little outside of "don't leave your cover". When you get to see where the sniper was, you can at least figure out what doorways to avoid next time, but other than that there's not much individual counterplay you can do (whereas the team can coordinate a bomb/scout flank/etc.).
On the other hand, getting killed in close range combat by a scout that runs straight at you and doesn't miss his shots can teach you a number of things:
- your movement is too predictable
- your aim is too inconsistent
- you should always have a buff before fighting (I'd imagine it's pretty rare to have a scout that constantly gets 90+ damage shots on every player of a team, where as snipers who can consistently nail players who just have bad awareness/positioning could be much more common)
- you should avoid 2v1 fights (again, even a bad scout + soldier can stay alive long enough to put out 185 damage against one player).
All of that being said, it seems that #tf2mix isn't exactly the place for newer players anymore, so I don't know that outright banning sniper is a good decision. It also, however, isn't something that should cause a big ruckus. If the admins don't want you to snipe, run your own pugs.
[quote=hooli]i have a question for all of you[/quote]
There's actually a really noticeable difference between being killed up close by somebody, which you generally have the ability to react to, and being killed from across the map the moment you step into view.
I believe Robin Walker even touched on this a bit when talking about the design of TF2, when they were showing the kill cam of where the sniper was; the basic principle is that getting killed in one hit from across the map teaches you very little outside of "don't leave your cover". When you get to see where the sniper was, you can at least figure out what doorways to avoid next time, but other than that there's not much individual counterplay you can do (whereas the team can coordinate a bomb/scout flank/etc.).
On the other hand, getting killed in close range combat by a scout that runs straight at you and doesn't miss his shots can teach you a number of things:
[olist]
[*] your movement is too predictable
[*] your aim is too inconsistent
[*] you should always have a buff before fighting (I'd imagine it's pretty rare to have a scout that constantly gets 90+ damage shots on every player of a team, where as snipers who can consistently nail players who just have bad awareness/positioning could be much more common)
[*] you should avoid 2v1 fights (again, even a bad scout + soldier can stay alive long enough to put out 185 damage against one player).
[/olist]
[b]All of that being said,[/b] it seems that #tf2mix isn't exactly [b]the[/b] place for newer players anymore, so I don't know that outright banning sniper is a good decision. It also, however, isn't something that should cause a big ruckus. If the admins don't want you to snipe, [b]run your own pugs[/b].
Papa Smurf's guide to why you are wrong
1. Offclassing abuse in pugs have been an issue in...
#tf2pickup
#tf2.gather.us
#tf2.pug.na
#tf2.pug
#tf2mix
2. Why? Enforcing offclassing is subjective.
What is the maximum about of offclassing that should be allow per pug. Should it be 25% of the time spent? Should it be only defending last? What about attacking last? "SNIPER IS A LEGIT CLASS AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAIN IT IN ALL MY PUGS". Not every admin/user will enforce/agree on the offclassing rule correctly, because we have tried it multiple ways for the past 5 years. Where do we draw the line papa? Tell me what to think.
3. Admins
I cannot guarantee that an admin will be in every pug. So when someone reports offclassing abuse. Someone has to go watch a demo. When that admin bans a user, someone gets mad and reports that they were banned unfairly. Now I have to go watch a demo. Admins are inconsistent when enforcing these rules.
4. Users
Lets say that the admins are robots and agree on a measurable value for correct offclassing limits and have the same opinion on every offclassing case that gets reported. THE USER IS STILL RETARDED. PlayerX sees that you let PlayerY offclass on gully for the majority of the game because PlayerY was defending a stalemate on last. Now PlayerX offclasses the whole game on badlands because PlayerY was playing spy/heavy/sniper all last game while defending last. "why didnt you ban him"
you try to explain defending, gullystalemate, blah blah. he doesnt give a shit. hates you forever. "OMG #TF2MIX HAS THE WORST ADMINS. OMG THEY LET THEIR FRIENDS OFFCLASS BUT NOT ME. ADMIN X OFFCLASSES. ADMIN Y LETS ME OFFCLASS"
5 The TL;DR most important part
People complain about the admins when they ban someone for offclassing. Example: Speedy seems to enforce offclassing more strictly than Eldritch. When we set sniper, engi, heavy limits to 0 there are no judgement calls, no need for admin in server, and no time consuming demo watching. Offclassing has been impossible to enforce consistently over the past 5 years in the multiple of pug channels me and cinq have been a part of. I wanted to get rid of Admin inconsistencies and bad user interpretation on when offclassing is suitable.
Cinq was never a fan of limiting offclassing, but we had a lot more active admins in the past to enforce offclassing rules. With less admins who will be in the servers no offclassing makes more sense. Offclassing has always been a pugging issue and we should just eliminated it.
Other admins thought that sniper was the most abused offclass and that is the sole reason it was banned for a day. We wont be banning offclassing until cinq releases me and lets me devour the world, which will look something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo4cFViNLes#t=59s For a safe and secure pugging system
Papa Smurf's guide to why you are wrong
1. Offclassing abuse in pugs have been an issue in...
#tf2pickup
#tf2.gather.us
#tf2.pug.na
#tf2.pug
#tf2mix
2. Why? Enforcing offclassing is subjective.
What is the maximum about of offclassing that should be allow per pug. Should it be 25% of the time spent? Should it be only defending last? What about attacking last? "SNIPER IS A LEGIT CLASS AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAIN IT IN ALL MY PUGS". Not every admin/user will enforce/agree on the offclassing rule correctly, because we have tried it multiple ways for the past 5 years. Where do we draw the line papa? Tell me what to think.
3. Admins
I cannot guarantee that an admin will be in every pug. So when someone reports offclassing abuse. Someone has to go watch a demo. When that admin bans a user, someone gets mad and reports that they were banned unfairly. Now I have to go watch a demo. Admins are inconsistent when enforcing these rules.
4. Users
Lets say that the admins are robots and agree on a measurable value for correct offclassing limits and have the same opinion on every offclassing case that gets reported. THE USER IS STILL RETARDED. PlayerX sees that you let PlayerY offclass on gully for the majority of the game because PlayerY was defending a stalemate on last. Now PlayerX offclasses the whole game on badlands because PlayerY was playing spy/heavy/sniper all last game while defending last. "why didnt you ban him"
you try to explain defending, gullystalemate, blah blah. he doesnt give a shit. hates you forever. "OMG #TF2MIX HAS THE WORST ADMINS. OMG THEY LET THEIR FRIENDS OFFCLASS BUT NOT ME. ADMIN X OFFCLASSES. ADMIN Y LETS ME OFFCLASS"
5 The TL;DR most important part
People complain about the admins when they ban someone for offclassing. Example: Speedy seems to enforce offclassing more strictly than Eldritch. [b]When we set sniper, engi, heavy limits to 0 there are no judgement calls, no need for admin in server, and no time consuming demo watching. Offclassing has been impossible to enforce consistently over the past 5 years in the multiple of pug channels me and cinq have been a part of. [u]I wanted to get rid of Admin inconsistencies and bad user interpretation on when offclassing is suitable.[/u][/b]
Cinq was never a fan of limiting offclassing, but we had a lot more active admins in the past to enforce offclassing rules. With less admins who will be in the servers no offclassing makes more sense. Offclassing has always been a pugging issue and we should just eliminated it.
Other admins thought that sniper was the most abused offclass and that is the sole reason it was banned for a day. We wont be banning offclassing until cinq releases me and lets me devour the world, which will look something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo4cFViNLes#t=59s For a safe and secure pugging system
also why are so many people upset when they can't snipe in an environment that ISN'T challenging/impressive where they can ACTUALLY ruin the game but then still demand sniper be banned from DM servers because 'its not fair?'
also why are so many people upset when they can't snipe in an environment that ISN'T challenging/impressive where they can ACTUALLY ruin the game but then still demand sniper be banned from DM servers because 'its not fair?'
BananasaurusMr_OwlBananasaurusLol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...
dang u r so superior guess u guys shoulda banned sniper in 1776
Not saying we are superior. But we don't let a few -AA- wannabes full time sniping ruin everyone elses fun. Just an over-reaction on the tf2mix admins' part.
minus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.
[quote=Bananasaurus][quote=Mr_Owl][quote=Bananasaurus]Lol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...[/quote]
dang u r so superior guess u guys shoulda banned sniper in 1776[/quote]
Not saying we are superior. But we don't let a few -AA- wannabes full time sniping ruin everyone elses fun. Just an over-reaction on the tf2mix admins' part.[/quote]
minus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.
I don't flat-out say this about many people, but
bananasaurus, you are a self-absorbed idiot. NA this, NA that. NA so butt hurt. NA so serious. Blah, blah, blah. Your so-called opinion isn't even an opinion; it's just a conglomeration of put-downs and babble. Please stop posting.
That is all.
I don't flat-out say this about many people, but
bananasaurus, you are a self-absorbed idiot. NA this, NA that. NA so butt hurt. NA so serious. Blah, blah, blah. Your so-called [i][b]opinion[/b][/i] isn't even an opinion; it's just a conglomeration of put-downs and babble. Please stop posting.
That is all.
Bananasaurusminus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.
Didn't ETF2L have almost an entirely vanilla whitelist until very recently?
[quote=Bananasaurus]minus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.[/quote]
Didn't ETF2L have almost an entirely vanilla whitelist until very recently?
Why not just make a thread looking for admins like pug.na did a while back. I'm sure you'll get some active admins who can monitor the offclassing. That would help reduce the full time sniping but still allow it on last holds and the such. It shouldn't be that hard to get 2 or 3 new admins so why not?
Why not just make a thread looking for admins like pug.na did a while back. I'm sure you'll get some active admins who can monitor the offclassing. That would help reduce the full time sniping but still allow it on last holds and the such. It shouldn't be that hard to get 2 or 3 new admins so why not?
BananasaurusBananasaurusMr_OwlBananasaurusLol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...
dang u r so superior guess u guys shoulda banned sniper in 1776
Not saying we are superior. But we don't let a few -AA- wannabes full time sniping ruin everyone elses fun. Just an over-reaction on the tf2mix admins' part.
minus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.
http://etf2l.org/forum/user/88924/
I bet you were one of those Div 6 trashcans that wanted to keep the vanilla unlock rules in place on ETF2L.
[quote=Bananasaurus][quote=Bananasaurus][quote=Mr_Owl][quote=Bananasaurus]Lol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...[/quote]
dang u r so superior guess u guys shoulda banned sniper in 1776[/quote]
Not saying we are superior. But we don't let a few -AA- wannabes full time sniping ruin everyone elses fun. Just an over-reaction on the tf2mix admins' part.[/quote]
minus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.[/quote]
http://etf2l.org/forum/user/88924/
I bet you were one of those Div 6 trashcans that wanted to keep the vanilla unlock rules in place on ETF2L.
Bananasaurusminus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.
Pls stop making EU players look like arrogant shitheads.
[quote=Bananasaurus]minus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.[/quote]
Pls stop making EU players look like arrogant shitheads.
Bananasaurusminus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5iqYuFmzqg
[quote=Bananasaurus]minus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.[/quote]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5iqYuFmzqg[/youtube]
MedusaBananasaurusminus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.
Pls stop making EU players look like arrogant shitheads.
while I agree, everyone holding a country/ continent responsible for a single person is just as shitty and I wouldn't care for that guy's opinion at all
[quote=Medusa][quote=Bananasaurus]minus frags pls, you NAs are just butthurt at the fact that people can break the meta and it still works. It's the quick fix all over again.[/quote]
Pls stop making EU players look like arrogant shitheads.[/quote]
while I agree, everyone holding a country/ continent responsible for a single person is just as shitty and I wouldn't care for that guy's opinion at all
miwoalso #3 a mozart techno remix cmon
its beethoven jeez
[quote=miwo]
also #3 a mozart techno remix cmon[/quote]
its beethoven jeez
I'm not 100% positive that Deep got banned because he was "too good at market gardening" --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL4Dw6UrJc8 but it seems as though, like people are saying, they tend to ban something/someone once something/someone is "too hard to counter." (like insom and many other people stated):
insomI find it funny when snipers who can't hit shots are allowed to perma snipe even though they are being useless, but if someone hits their shots it's an instant perma ban.
Anyways, that's a cool video. :P
I'm not 100% positive that Deep got banned because he was "too good at market gardening" --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL4Dw6UrJc8 but it seems as though, like people are saying, they tend to ban something/someone once something/someone is "too hard to counter." (like insom and many other people stated):
[quote=insom]I find it funny when snipers who can't hit shots are allowed to perma snipe even though they are being useless, but if someone hits their shots it's an instant perma ban.[/quote]
Anyways, that's a cool video. :P
CorsaI'm not 100% positive that Deep got banned because he was "too good at market gardening" --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL4Dw6UrJc8 but it seems as though, like people are saying, they tend to ban something/someone once something/someone is "too hard to counter." (like insom and many other people stated):
insomI find it funny when snipers who can't hit shots are allowed to perma snipe even though they are being useless, but if someone hits their shots it's an instant perma ban.
Anyways, that's a cool video. :P
way to think for yourself, champ. hive mind mentality at its finest.
I would love for somebody to show me proof that we've banned anyone (within my admin tenure) simply because they were "too good at sniping" or doing anything "too hard to counter", and not because they were clearly offclassing excessively or simply trolling the pug.
[quote=Corsa]I'm not 100% positive that Deep got banned because he was "too good at market gardening" --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL4Dw6UrJc8 but it seems as though, [b]like people are saying, they tend to ban something/someone once something/someone is "too hard to counter."[/b] (like insom and many other people stated):
[quote=insom]I find it funny when snipers who can't hit shots are allowed to perma snipe even though they are being useless, but if someone hits their shots it's an instant perma ban.[/quote]
Anyways, that's a cool video. :P[/quote]
way to think for yourself, champ. hive mind mentality at its finest.
I would love for somebody to show me proof that we've banned anyone (within my admin tenure) simply because they were "too good at sniping" or doing anything "too hard to counter", and not because they were clearly offclassing excessively or simply trolling the pug.
joddI would love for somebody to show me proof that we've banned anyone (within my admin tenure) simply because they were "too good at sniping" or doing anything "too hard to counter", and not because they were clearly offclassing excessively or simply trolling the pug
Like I said, I thought that video could have been proof, but like I also said, I wasn't 100% positive.
[quote=jodd]I would love for somebody to show me proof that we've banned anyone (within my admin tenure) simply because they were "too good at sniping" or doing anything "too hard to counter", and not because they were clearly offclassing excessively or simply trolling the pug[/quote]
Like I said, I thought that video could have been proof, but like I also said, I wasn't 100% positive.
doing weird/cheesy shit 100% of the time in pugs should not be allowed in systems designed for newer players to adjust to 6v6
sniper
spy
rjumper soldier
etc
doing weird/cheesy shit 100% of the time in pugs should not be allowed in systems designed for newer players to adjust to 6v6
sniper
spy
rjumper soldier
etc
clorgAdmins of tf2mix are a joke, they have no one to check their power because cinq just doesn't give a shit it seems. Whenever I bring their abuse to his attention he just shrugs it off or ignores me. It almost seems like they have a quota they have to maintain because I and a few other people lost their admin because we didn't restrict or ban enough people, and every once in a while I'll see random bans they toss around. Crazy shit, not nearly as bad as aristotle's power trip, though.
YES I AGREE. I got my admin taken because I shit talked cinq's friend. The dude has mumble(and maybe channel) admin and doesn't do jackshit. Now whereas I'd be fine with that, being a dickhead and banning other admins in mumble because you didn't like how you were being treated back is just fucking dumb imo. And like clorg said, I was reminded several times that I was a bad admin because I didn't ban people enough even though I never had a reason to. I tried staying active and fixing broken bots and banning people if they deserved it but for not being able to that + shit talking cinq's friend, I got my admin removed.
And this reminds me of another funny incident...
There was a certain player that I felt needed to be banned for 2-3 days. When I called for an admin, it was cinq. He didn't know it was me since I changed my alias a while back but as soon as he did learn it was me, he promptly kicked me from the channel and said something along the lines of
"because I cant trust a guy like Lin"
also the guy was never banned.
Edit: Maybe I'm missing some other groundbreaking reason for why I got banned but this is all I took away from that incident.
[quote=clorg]Admins of tf2mix are a joke, they have no one to check their power because cinq just doesn't give a shit it seems. Whenever I bring their abuse to his attention he just shrugs it off or ignores me. It almost seems like they have a quota they have to maintain because I and a few other people lost their admin because we didn't restrict or ban enough people, and every once in a while I'll see random bans they toss around. Crazy shit, not nearly as bad as aristotle's power trip, though.[/quote]
YES I AGREE. I got my admin taken because I shit talked cinq's friend. The dude has mumble(and maybe channel) admin and doesn't do jackshit. Now whereas I'd be fine with that, being a dickhead and banning other [i]admins[/i] in mumble because you didn't like how you were being treated back is just fucking dumb imo. And like clorg said, I was reminded [b]several[/b] times that I was a bad admin because I didn't ban people enough even though I never had a reason to. I tried staying active and fixing broken bots and banning people if they deserved it but for not being able to that + shit talking cinq's friend, I got my admin removed.
And this reminds me of another funny incident...
There was a certain player that I felt needed to be banned for 2-3 days. When I called for an admin, it was cinq. He didn't know it was me since I changed my alias a while back but as soon as he did learn it was me, he promptly kicked me from the channel and said something along the lines of
"because I cant trust a guy like Lin"
also the guy was never banned.
Edit: Maybe I'm missing some other groundbreaking reason for why I got banned but this is all I took away from that incident.
also i want to be clear:
pug fragmovies are definitely the most solid evidence of an alternative strategy / class distribution being completely viable full-time.
also i want to be clear:
pug fragmovies are definitely the most solid evidence of an alternative strategy / class distribution being completely viable full-time.
LinYES I AGREE. I got my admin taken because I shit talked cinq's friend. The dude has mumble(and maybe channel) admin and doesn't do jackshit. Now whereas I'd be fine with that, being a dickhead and banning other admins in mumble because you didn't like how you were being treated back is just fucking dumb imo. And like clorg said, I was reminded several times that I was a bad admin because I didn't ban people enough even though I never had a reason to. I tried staying active and fixing broken bots and banning people if they deserved it but for not being able to that + shit talking cinq's friend, I got my admin removed.
And this reminds me of another funny incident...
There was a certain player that I felt needed to be banned for 2-3 days. When I called for an admin, it was cinq. He didn't know it was me since I changed my alias a while back but as soon as he did learn it was me, he promptly kicked me from the channel and said something along the lines of
"because I cant trust a guy like Lin"
also the guy was never banned.
Edit: Maybe I'm missing some other groundbreaking reason for why I got banned but this is all I took away from that incident.
schmang, you were removed as admin because all you did was petition for your friends to be unbanned, be rude to cinq's real life friend in mumble, and give rcon out to your friends.
nice try though
[quote=Lin]
YES I AGREE. I got my admin taken because I shit talked cinq's friend. The dude has mumble(and maybe channel) admin and doesn't do jackshit. Now whereas I'd be fine with that, being a dickhead and banning other [i]admins[/i] in mumble because you didn't like how you were being treated back is just fucking dumb imo. And like clorg said, I was reminded [b]several[/b] times that I was a bad admin because I didn't ban people enough even though I never had a reason to. I tried staying active and fixing broken bots and banning people if they deserved it but for not being able to that + shit talking cinq's friend, I got my admin removed.
And this reminds me of another funny incident...
There was a certain player that I felt needed to be banned for 2-3 days. When I called for an admin, it was cinq. He didn't know it was me since I changed my alias a while back but as soon as he did learn it was me, he promptly kicked me from the channel and said something along the lines of
"because I cant trust a guy like Lin"
also the guy was never banned.
Edit: Maybe I'm missing some other groundbreaking reason for why I got banned but this is all I took away from that incident.[/quote]
schmang, you were removed as admin because all you did was petition for your friends to be unbanned, be rude to cinq's real life friend in mumble, and give rcon out to your friends.
nice try though
It's obvious this argument will never come to an end at this rate. Like PapaSmurf said, it's been an issue since forever. The issues with off classing in tf2mix should be dealt with individually like they have been, but with more harsh consequences.
The fact that admins/moderators can ban/restrict solely off of how they feel about the situation is an issue that most people don't seem to realize. While this isn't 100% something that is bad or wrong, it definitely isn't the most solid way to deal with the offenders.
There should be a document that dictates what should happen to said offenders. This document could state common situations where certain utilities are allowed, time the player spent on the class, and general stuff such as that.
For example, pushing Granary last. Granary last, as I'm sure a lot of people will agree, can often invite lengthy stalemates. There are other things this last point brings to the table, but I'll only include this one. It's not rare to see the pushing or even the defending team running a sniper to regain advantages that were lost one way or another prior to pushing last. So obviously this would be okay for someone in a pug to do.
While the document alone will not solve the issue, it would be best to require admins/moderators to watch every demo when there may be a problem player. Yes, it takes away from your precious time, but if you signed up to be an authority figure, you should take honest responsibility and do your job correctly.
TF2mix was supposed to be a place for new players trying to learn the metagame. That example I gave is part of the metagame. Banning off classing entirely takes away from something new players will have to learn anyway. It's not fair for the new players to miss out on learning in a channel allegedly dedicated to helping said players.
An example of this document would look something like this - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xdCZ2GP5_nIeeYsbWP9QOAXEquyJww4wyXsPPYDQLEw/edit?usp=sharing - Except probably better looking and with more to it.
When it comes down to obvious cases of people trolling the pug/intentionally trying to ruin it for the other team/playing a utility classes for their own desires instead of proper situations, simply watching the demo and seeing this will suffice. In my opinion, anyone trying to ruin a pug or troll or whatever should receive something like a 3 month restriction right off the bat. No feeling bad for those who don't feel bad for the things they do to others.
I feel like I'm forgetting stuff that was supposed to be a part of this post, but I think what I have will get the idea through. It's not about how "harsh" or "unfair" the consequences are. It's about having a fun place to play, a place for new players to learn the game and a place for experienced players to play and potentially help out the newer players.
It's obvious this argument will never come to an end at this rate. Like PapaSmurf said, it's been an issue since forever. The issues with off classing in tf2mix should be dealt with individually like they have been, but with more harsh consequences.
The fact that admins/moderators can ban/restrict solely off of how they feel about the situation is an issue that most people don't seem to realize. While this isn't 100% something that is bad or wrong, it definitely isn't the most solid way to deal with the offenders.
There should be a document that dictates what should happen to said offenders. This document could state common situations where certain utilities are allowed, time the player spent on the class, and general stuff such as that.
For example, pushing Granary last. Granary last, as I'm sure a lot of people will agree, can often invite lengthy stalemates. There are other things this last point brings to the table, but I'll only include this one. It's not rare to see the pushing or even the defending team running a sniper to regain advantages that were lost one way or another prior to pushing last. So obviously this would be okay for someone in a pug to do.
While the document alone will not solve the issue, it would be best to require admins/moderators to watch every demo when there may be a problem player. Yes, it takes away from your precious time, but if you signed up to be an authority figure, you should take honest responsibility and do your job correctly.
TF2mix was [b]supposed[/b] to be a place for new players trying to learn the metagame. That example I gave is part of the metagame. Banning off classing entirely takes away from something new players will have to learn anyway. It's not fair for the new players to miss out on learning in a channel allegedly dedicated to helping said players.
An example of this document would look something like this - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xdCZ2GP5_nIeeYsbWP9QOAXEquyJww4wyXsPPYDQLEw/edit?usp=sharing - Except probably better looking and with more to it.
When it comes down to obvious cases of people trolling the pug/intentionally trying to ruin it for the other team/playing a utility classes for their own desires instead of proper situations, simply watching the demo and seeing this will suffice. In my opinion, anyone trying to ruin a pug or troll or whatever should receive something like a 3 month restriction right off the bat. No feeling bad for those who don't feel bad for the things they do to others.
I feel like I'm forgetting stuff that was supposed to be a part of this post, but I think what I have will get the idea through. It's not about how "harsh" or "unfair" the consequences are. It's about having a fun place to play, a place for new players to learn the game and a place for experienced players to play and potentially help out the newer players.
LinI tried staying active and fixing broken bots and banning people if they deserved it but for not being able to that + shit talking cinq's friend, I got my admin removed.
You were caught giving away server rcon, mumble privileges, changing people's aliases in mumble, and petitioning for your friends to be unbanned when they were caught breaking rules.
Only 4 had high enough privileges to use admin commands in the bot that fixed things.
You weren't one.
Given admin in start of September.
Removed in start of December.
4 bans recorded total.
1.1 ban per month.
Nice try.
[quote=Lin]
I tried staying active and fixing broken bots and banning people if they deserved it but for not being able to that + shit talking cinq's friend, I got my admin removed.
[/quote]
You were caught giving away server rcon, mumble privileges, changing people's aliases in mumble, and petitioning for your friends to be unbanned when they were caught breaking rules.
Only 4 had high enough privileges to use admin commands in the bot that fixed things.
You [b]weren't[/b] one.
Given admin in start of September.
Removed in start of December.
4 bans recorded total.
1.1 ban per month.
Nice try.
joddLinYES I AGREE. I got my admin taken because I shit talked cinq's friend. The dude has mumble(and maybe channel) admin and doesn't do jackshit. Now whereas I'd be fine with that, being a dickhead and banning other admins in mumble because you didn't like how you were being treated back is just fucking dumb imo. And like clorg said, I was reminded several times that I was a bad admin because I didn't ban people enough even though I never had a reason to. I tried staying active and fixing broken bots and banning people if they deserved it but for not being able to that + shit talking cinq's friend, I got my admin removed.
And this reminds me of another funny incident...
There was a certain player that I felt needed to be banned for 2-3 days. When I called for an admin, it was cinq. He didn't know it was me since I changed my alias a while back but as soon as he did learn it was me, he promptly kicked me from the channel and said something along the lines of
"because I cant trust a guy like Lin"
also the guy was never banned.
Edit: Maybe I'm missing some other groundbreaking reason for why I got banned but this is all I took away from that incident.
schmang, you were removed as admin because all you did was petition for your friends to be unbanned, be rude to cinq's real life friend in mumble, and give rcon out to your friends.
nice try though
When micheal told me he was banned and he gave me valid reasons for why it wasn't fair, I only asked speedygeek once for him to be unbanned based on the information I was presented. As for the rcon, only one person had it, someone who had voice and may still have voice. The person was someone trustable that would make a fine admin. And as for changing the alias changing, it was a joke and I would have gladly changed the name back if he wanted me to. I guess I shouldn't have said anything to bloodsplatters but other than that, I dont believe I did anything wrong. OH, and I definitly didnt give away mumble privileges and register people.
btw I definitely did fix the bot a bunch...
http://pastebin.com/prhmTgcN
[quote=jodd][quote=Lin]
YES I AGREE. I got my admin taken because I shit talked cinq's friend. The dude has mumble(and maybe channel) admin and doesn't do jackshit. Now whereas I'd be fine with that, being a dickhead and banning other [i]admins[/i] in mumble because you didn't like how you were being treated back is just fucking dumb imo. And like clorg said, I was reminded [b]several[/b] times that I was a bad admin because I didn't ban people enough even though I never had a reason to. I tried staying active and fixing broken bots and banning people if they deserved it but for not being able to that + shit talking cinq's friend, I got my admin removed.
And this reminds me of another funny incident...
There was a certain player that I felt needed to be banned for 2-3 days. When I called for an admin, it was cinq. He didn't know it was me since I changed my alias a while back but as soon as he did learn it was me, he promptly kicked me from the channel and said something along the lines of
"because I cant trust a guy like Lin"
also the guy was never banned.
Edit: Maybe I'm missing some other groundbreaking reason for why I got banned but this is all I took away from that incident.[/quote]
schmang, you were removed as admin because all you did was petition for your friends to be unbanned, be rude to cinq's real life friend in mumble, and give rcon out to your friends.
nice try though[/quote]
When micheal told me he was banned and he gave me valid reasons for why it wasn't fair, I only asked speedygeek once for him to be unbanned based on the information I was presented. As for the rcon, only one person had it, someone who had voice and may still have voice. The person was someone trustable that would make a fine admin. And as for changing the alias changing, it was a joke and I would have gladly changed the name back if he wanted me to. I guess I shouldn't have said anything to bloodsplatters but other than that, I dont believe I did anything wrong. OH, and I definitly didnt give away mumble privileges and register people.
btw I definitely did fix the bot a bunch...
http://pastebin.com/prhmTgcN
I gave people mumble admin, I don't even know how I got it lol.
I gave people mumble admin, I don't even know how I got it lol.
thanks guys solid feedback on the offclassing discussion
thanks guys solid feedback on the offclassing discussion
well the first part of reimu's thread could be interpreted any way and as for sniping in pugs, it should be allowed because pugs can help people without teams improve and offclassing is something a lot of players need to do to be successful.
well the first part of reimu's thread could be interpreted any way and as for sniping in pugs, it should be allowed because pugs can help people without teams improve and offclassing is something a lot of players need to do to be successful.
As for the rcon, only one person had it, someone who had voice and may still have voice. The person was someone trustable that would make a fine admin.
giving a rcon password to someone who isn't an admin, and you're still going off about getting removed as admin?
http://trusoulradio.mobi/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/mj-laughing.gif
[quote]As for the rcon, only one person had it, someone who had voice and may still have voice. The person was someone trustable that would make a fine admin.[/quote]
giving a rcon password to someone who isn't an admin, and you're still going off about getting removed as admin?
[img]http://trusoulradio.mobi/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/mj-laughing.gif[/img]
Linrcon can be changed
So can admin privileges
[quote=Lin]rcon can be changed[/quote]
So can admin privileges
i played sniper in a mix like yesterday. end of discussion they unbanned it
i played sniper in a mix like yesterday. end of discussion they unbanned it
[quote=Lin]rcon can be changed[/quote]
duly noted, i'm sure you'd make a fine admin for any other pug channel
[img]http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Dumb-Dumber-s-Harry-Lloyd-Laughing-At-A-Burger-Joint.gif[/img]