I want to shed some light on recent TF2 shortcomings without jacking someone else's thread or turning this into a 'is it dead vs is it not dead' war or people saying goodbye and shit by using my well educated, intelligent, snarky attitude to possibly change some people's perspectives on things.
1. End of the Line - The update itself was pretty awful, all they did was use ducks to fund the pockets of people who poured their heart and soul into making a really well executed source filmmaker short. People felt this update was going to be 'big' but now feel like they're being nickel and dimed which is fair but it just goes to show that Valve are interested in money. The snowplow map isn't even done though, so even if they had added it, there'd be 100 threads of screenshots of it being glitched and broken so whatever.
2. Matchmaking - People make the argument that 'oh it'd be super profitable for valve to release matchmaking and player skins and shit.' I would like everyone to take a step back for a second and realize Valve doesn't take the term esports lightly. TI is the biggest competition each year and theyve done nothing but help the CSGO community improve.
Valve slapping a new button and player profiles/MMR into the current TF2 UI would be a disgusting mess. Seeing as how most people commenting either didn't finish college or have a degree in software engineering, I'd like you all to take a minute to think about where we are in the game as well as timelines/problems.
First of all, Valve isn't dumb. If they thought this 'letter' was a legitimate thing they'd keep it in their arsenal of potential updates and maybe follow through with it in the future. Responding to people and giving them hope of ever implementing their ideas is the worst thing they could do for PR as shown by this EOTL update where everyone lost their shit over not getting new weapons and maps or the ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give DIRETIDE fiasco in Dota.
Second, they already announced Source 2 coming next year. I'm not guaranteeing a TF2 port to a new engine but I'm sure its on their list of potential things to accomplish in 2015/16. The amount of work to add a shitty broken MM system to TF2 with unlocks would be a ridiculously large effort (not just a copy and paste into the dota/csgo engine) and probably take a year or more of dev time given the way valve operates. They can focus their efforts on a 7 year old game that was never supposed to be competitive and give it a matchmaking system (that could potentially ruin the game for pubbers with idiots getting kills and spamming WHATS YOUR MMR) or they can focus their efforts on 2 competitive eSport-centric games that rake in cash through stickers, skins, couriers, and live events. Just let that sink in.
Valve has one of the smaller sizes when it comes to employees and since most of you probably didn't read the employee handbook, it appears a majority of their employees get to focus on what they feel they'd enjoy to work on most, when they feel like it more or less. Which puts TF2 at the mercy of not just Valve as a company but the employees as a whole. The whole letter concept was silly to me because Valve isn't a black box of mysterious people, they're a company with working employees who are video game nerds just like most of you except they have jobs.
If you actually want an update published you need to get it hyped, you need people to want it, not just the nerds on this forum. The way we've always done it (we being me and the good people at TF2maps.net and TF2Lobby and whatever other TF2 projects I've chimed in on) is make people fucking want it. You don't go out and say this is what tftv wants or what 'comp' wants, you make it appealing for the entire world to see, get it trending on twitter, front paged on reddit, etc.
Personally the way I would've gone about it was get the artists, the mapmakers, and the pub community heads to help me assemble a fake update page, fake patch notes, a tf2 frag video made in source filmmaker, and a ridiculous comic and published it as a 'leaked' update, made people believe in it, and get it at the top of reddit/spuf/etc. That can still be done but I think it might not be worth it at this point.
Dev cycles take time, and TF2 in its current state cannot support a matchmaking system. (ui sucks, weapons are all over the place, classes aren't fully balanced, and I could rant for hours about why it's not spectator friendly) I know I sound fanboyish but I think we all need to have a reality check, stop and think about what we want vs what makes sense, and keep our fingers crossed that they'll make a good decision.
Also Robin doesn't work with TF2 anymore, so comparing old days of the beta/community weapons/lobby fixes are far and gone, as the new dude doesn't seem to want to accept friend requests or reply to emails. That's his prerogative though and to him, we're just a whiney subreddit at best.
TLDR: fiscally, it'd be a mistake to pour resources into a 7 year old engine when your new bread and butter is coming out in 2015, and theres probably a pretty good chance we see big tf2 changes in the next year or so whether it be a new game or a redone game with the new engine.
They're not going to compete with overwatch with TF2 in its current state, matchmaking or not.
now quote every line, tell me why im wrong, and convince me tf2 is dead and that valves assholes, as well as that taking time away from DOTA or CSGO is a good idea. l8r dudes.
I want to shed some light on recent TF2 shortcomings without jacking someone else's thread or turning this into a 'is it dead vs is it not dead' war or people saying goodbye and shit by using my well educated, intelligent, snarky attitude to possibly change some people's perspectives on things.
1. [b]End of the Line[/b] - The update itself was pretty awful, all they did was use ducks to fund the pockets of people who poured their heart and soul into making a really well executed source filmmaker short. People felt this update was going to be 'big' but now feel like they're being nickel and dimed which is fair but it just goes to show that Valve are interested in money. The snowplow map isn't even done though, so even if they had added it, there'd be 100 threads of screenshots of it being glitched and broken so whatever.
2. [b]Matchmaking[/b] - People make the argument that 'oh it'd be super profitable for valve to release matchmaking and player skins and shit.' I would like everyone to take a step back for a second and realize Valve doesn't take the term esports lightly. TI is the biggest competition each year and theyve done nothing but help the CSGO community improve.
Valve slapping a new button and player profiles/MMR into the current TF2 UI would be a disgusting mess. Seeing as how most people commenting either didn't finish college or have a degree in software engineering, I'd like you all to take a minute to think about where we are in the game as well as timelines/problems.
First of all, Valve isn't dumb. If they thought this 'letter' was a legitimate thing they'd keep it in their arsenal of potential updates and maybe follow through with it in the future. Responding to people and giving them hope of ever implementing their ideas is the worst thing they could do for PR as shown by this EOTL update where everyone lost their shit over not getting new weapons and maps or the ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give DIRETIDE fiasco in Dota.
Second, they already announced Source 2 coming next year. I'm not guaranteeing a TF2 port to a new engine but I'm sure its on their list of potential things to accomplish in 2015/16. The amount of work to add a shitty broken MM system to TF2 with unlocks would be a ridiculously large effort (not just a copy and paste into the dota/csgo engine) and probably take a year or more of dev time given the way valve operates. They can focus their efforts on a 7 year old game that was never supposed to be competitive and give it a matchmaking system (that could potentially ruin the game for pubbers with idiots getting kills and spamming WHATS YOUR MMR) or they can focus their efforts on 2 competitive eSport-centric games that rake in cash through stickers, skins, couriers, and live events. Just let that sink in.
Valve has one of the smaller sizes when it comes to employees and since most of you probably didn't read the [url=http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf]employee handbook[/url], it appears a majority of their employees get to focus on what they feel they'd enjoy to work on most, when they feel like it more or less. Which puts TF2 at the mercy of not just Valve as a company but the employees as a whole. The whole letter concept was silly to me because Valve isn't a black box of mysterious people, they're a company with working employees who are video game nerds just like most of you except they have jobs.
If you actually want an update published you need to get it hyped, you need people to want it, not just the nerds on this forum. The way we've always done it (we being me and the good people at TF2maps.net and TF2Lobby and whatever other TF2 projects I've chimed in on) is make people fucking want it. You don't go out and say this is what tftv wants or what 'comp' wants, you make it appealing for the entire world to see, get it trending on twitter, front paged on reddit, etc.
Personally the way I would've gone about it was get the artists, the mapmakers, and the pub community heads to help me assemble a fake update page, fake patch notes, a tf2 frag video made in source filmmaker, and a ridiculous comic and published it as a 'leaked' update, made people believe in it, and get it at the top of reddit/spuf/etc. That can still be done but I think it might not be worth it at this point.
Dev cycles take time, and TF2 in its current state cannot support a matchmaking system. (ui sucks, weapons are all over the place, classes aren't fully balanced, and I could rant for hours about why it's not spectator friendly) I know I sound fanboyish but I think we all need to have a reality check, stop and think about what we want vs what makes sense, and keep our fingers crossed that they'll make a good decision.
Also Robin doesn't work with TF2 anymore, so comparing old days of the beta/community weapons/lobby fixes are far and gone, as the new dude doesn't seem to want to accept friend requests or reply to emails. That's his prerogative though and to him, we're just a whiney subreddit at best.
TLDR: fiscally, it'd be a mistake to pour resources into a 7 year old engine when your new bread and butter is coming out in 2015, and theres probably a pretty good chance we see big tf2 changes in the next year or so whether it be a new game or a redone game with the new engine.
They're not going to compete with overwatch with TF2 in its current state, matchmaking or not.
now quote every line, tell me why im wrong, and convince me tf2 is dead and that valves assholes, as well as that taking time away from DOTA or CSGO is a good idea. l8r dudes.
flameemployees who are video game nerds just like most of you except they have jobs.
Implying I'm unemployed. Well you'd be right :(
[quote=flame]employees who are video game nerds just like most of you except they have jobs.[/quote]
Implying I'm unemployed. Well you'd be right :(
I don't understand why a group of people who claim to represent the community won't show us what they wrote
I don't understand why a group of people who claim to represent the community won't show us what they wrote
the significance of the "letter" is vastly overstated.
it's not some holy treatise on competitive TF2 aimed to sway Valve into giving us everything we've ever wanted -- just a loose collection of thoughts by a couple people over a few days.
it wasn't even going to be sent at all and was only attached later in an email thread.
the significance of the "letter" is vastly overstated.
it's not some holy treatise on competitive TF2 aimed to sway Valve into giving us everything we've ever wanted -- just a loose collection of thoughts by a couple people over a few days.
it wasn't even going to be sent at all and was only attached later in an email thread.
[quote=enigma]just a loose collection of thoughts by a couple people over a few days.[/quote]
[img]http://catholiclane.com/wp-content/uploads/declaration-of-independence-300x201.png[/img]
couple people over a few days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq-YDeEfZWY#t=2m15s
"it took months to write it"
[quote]couple people over a few days[/quote]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq-YDeEfZWY#t=2m15s
"it took months to write it"
Months is most definitely an exaggeration.
Months is most definitely an exaggeration.
So basically tf3 confirmed
So basically tf3 confirmed
a source 2 remake of tf2 would make me so happy
a source 2 remake of tf2 would make me so happy
to decide whether or not tf2 needs a lobby system, u have to look at whether or not it actually nets valve more money, relative to the effort required to execute it (assuming valve is purely profit motivated)
CSGO monetization would work very well for tf2, with journals or whatev
but htere's literally no reason to put in a lobby system for tf2 since a fair majority of the people who would play it are already playing it, and it's not like there's a need to force people into tf2
CSGO had this problem because people still wanted to play 1.6 or source or CZ or whatev
comparatively TF2 is feature complete to the point where no competing game is sucking up profits that are availible
unless valve sees a huge monetizing potential in tf2 mm, to the point where the steam market share of tf2 basically doubles, they'd never make the same money off of a tf2 mm compared to a csgo one
to decide whether or not tf2 needs a lobby system, u have to look at whether or not it actually nets valve more money, relative to the effort required to execute it (assuming valve is purely profit motivated)
CSGO monetization would work very well for tf2, with journals or whatev
but htere's literally no reason to put in a lobby system for tf2 since a fair majority of the people who would play it are already playing it, and it's not like there's a need to force people into tf2
CSGO had this problem because people still wanted to play 1.6 or source or CZ or whatev
comparatively TF2 is feature complete to the point where no competing game is sucking up profits that are availible
unless valve sees a huge monetizing potential in tf2 mm, to the point where the steam market share of tf2 basically doubles, they'd never make the same money off of a tf2 mm compared to a csgo one
As for making the game cluttered, you could make a MM button like MvM has on the main title page, which then opens another screen for options.
As for making the game cluttered, you could make a MM button like MvM has on the main title page, which then opens another screen for options.
flameassemble a fake update page, fake patch notes, a tf2 frag video made in source filmmaker, and a ridiculous comic and published it as a 'leaked' update
Reminds me of the Fancy Vs Nasty Update, and the Night of the Living Update. Even though they were unofficial updates, Valve took notice of them, and added many of the items it introduced into the game (The Fancy vs Nasty update bought in the Frying Pan, as an example).
[quote=flame]assemble a fake update page, fake patch notes, a tf2 frag video made in source filmmaker, and a ridiculous comic and published it as a 'leaked' update
[/quote]
Reminds me of the [url=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Fancy_vs._Nasty_Update]Fancy Vs Nasty Update[/url], and the [url=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Night_of_the_Living_Update]Night of the Living Update[/url]. Even though they were unofficial updates, Valve took notice of them, and added many of the items it introduced into the game (The Fancy vs Nasty update bought in the Frying Pan, as an example).
Really well articulated and informative. Just one thing I don't understand - why would they port tf2 over to source 2? I would imagine that the most important thing for Valve in tf2 is keeping the player numbers and economy at a stablish level; wouldn't porting it over ruin most of that and disrupt their huge source of income? How would it benefit them?
Really well articulated and informative. Just one thing I don't understand - why would they port tf2 over to source 2? I would imagine that the most important thing for Valve in tf2 is keeping the player numbers and economy at a stablish level; wouldn't porting it over ruin most of that and disrupt their huge source of income? How would it benefit them?
SideshowReally well articulated and informative. Just one thing I don't understand - why would they port tf2 over to source 2? I would imagine that the most important thing for Valve in tf2 is keeping the player numbers and economy at a stablish level; wouldn't porting it over ruin most of that and disrupt their huge source of income? How would it benefit them?
disable old tf2/update it
benefits could be better performance / lighting / map tools / less buggy (rofl)
they did it moving from goldsrc to src
they possibly could avoiding losing to many users if they optimize source 2 properly or whatevs, and I imagine considering that csgo and doter are huge, easily accessible games they'd want to keep fps playable, that the engine easily runnable even on toasters
[quote=Sideshow]Really well articulated and informative. Just one thing I don't understand - why would they port tf2 over to source 2? I would imagine that the most important thing for Valve in tf2 is keeping the player numbers and economy at a stablish level; wouldn't porting it over ruin most of that and disrupt their huge source of income? How would it benefit them?[/quote]
disable old tf2/update it
benefits could be better performance / lighting / map tools / less buggy (rofl)
they did it moving from goldsrc to src
they possibly could avoiding losing to many users if they optimize source 2 properly or whatevs, and I imagine considering that csgo and doter are huge, easily accessible games they'd want to keep fps playable, that the engine easily runnable even on toasters
let's hope source 2 tf2 has an improved netcode in terms of hitreg
let's hope source 2 tf2 has an improved netcode in terms of hitreg
I guess fps optimisation of the game will allow more people to play. I don't know how much those other things would really help valve out. Depends how easy it would be to port, and how much they would lose/be able to keep exactly the same I guess.
I guess fps optimisation of the game will allow more people to play. I don't know how much those other things would really help valve out. Depends how easy it would be to port, and how much they would lose/be able to keep exactly the same I guess.
im pretty sure hte point of source 2 is it's nearly a drop-in replacement of the old one
im pretty sure hte point of source 2 is it's nearly a drop-in replacement of the old one
point being if it gets updated to source2 the game itself isnt going to be very different outside of better use of multicore, more physics engine features, and maybe a new hammer to work with, its not like theyd be remaking the gmae
point being if it gets updated to source2 the game itself isnt going to be very different outside of better use of multicore, more physics engine features, and maybe a new hammer to work with, its not like theyd be remaking the gmae
It won't be source 2 tf2, of they do anything it will be tf3.
It won't be source 2 tf2, of they do anything it will be tf3.
2cpoint being if it gets updated to source2 the game itself isnt going to be very different outside of better use of multicore, more physics engine features, and maybe a new hammer to work with, its not like theyd be remaking the gmae
* Performance optimizations
* (presumably) Fixing long-standing graphical and physics glitches
* More accessible file formats (for HUDs, mods, and demos)
I'd call all of these (especially the third one) pretty big gains.
The demo format in particular is proprietary, and in Valve's own words, hacky and nearly impossible to parse. I did some amount of work attempting to decode it, but realized my efforts would be better spent elsewhere, especially when and if the format becomes deprecated with Source 2.
[quote=2c]point being if it gets updated to source2 the game itself isnt going to be very different outside of better use of multicore, more physics engine features, and maybe a new hammer to work with, its not like theyd be remaking the gmae[/quote]
* Performance optimizations
* (presumably) Fixing long-standing graphical and physics glitches
* More accessible file formats (for HUDs, mods, and demos)
I'd call all of these (especially the third one) pretty big gains.
The demo format in particular is proprietary, and in Valve's own words, hacky and nearly impossible to parse. I did some amount of work attempting to decode it, but realized my efforts would be better spent elsewhere, especially when and if the format becomes deprecated with Source 2.
If a matchmaking update does ever come I really hope they update the TF2 menus. The current menus look like trash, especially compared to CSGO and Dota
If a matchmaking update does ever come I really hope they update the TF2 menus. The current menus look like trash, especially compared to CSGO and Dota
reillyIf a matchmaking update does ever come I really hope they update the TF2 menus. The current menus look like trash, especially compared to CSGO and Dota
most custom HUDs make them look pretty nice (which, btw, is something they don't have in cs:go or dota)
[quote=reilly]If a matchmaking update does ever come I really hope they update the TF2 menus. The current menus look like trash, especially compared to CSGO and Dota[/quote]
most custom HUDs make them look pretty nice (which, btw, is something they don't have in cs:go or dota)
eeeto decide whether or not tf2 needs a lobby system, u have to look at whether or not it actually nets valve more money, relative to the effort required to execute it (assuming valve is purely profit motivated)
Not saying you're wrong, but I wonder how much Valve made off from those duck trackers or whatever that are $5. I believe it does something to track how many ducks you collected and puts you on the leaderboard? There's probably a number of ways to do something equivalent to that for a lobby system, I mean if you consider MvM, they release ToD tickets I believe and give back prizes(Australium weapons afaik).
There is definitely a way to add that in and make it balanced(maybe make it where all the people who dedicate to improving their skill in TF2 is rewarded rather than mindlessly farming/trading for the Aussies). It definitely can and probably would make Valve more money, I guess what needs to be considered is how much it will make them. I've kind of stated the obvious, but I thought it needed to be restated to remind people that there's always possibilities that aren't looked into enough or have been mentioned.
Also I apologize for the lack of knowledge on this duck stuff and MvM stuff, I never looked far into that kind of stuff or got time.
[quote=eee]to decide whether or not tf2 needs a lobby system, u have to look at whether or not it actually nets valve more money, relative to the effort required to execute it (assuming valve is purely profit motivated)[/quote]
Not saying you're wrong, but I wonder how much Valve made off from those duck trackers or whatever that are $5. I believe it does something to track how many ducks you collected and puts you on the leaderboard? There's probably a number of ways to do something equivalent to that for a lobby system, I mean if you consider MvM, they release ToD tickets I believe and give back prizes(Australium weapons afaik).
There is definitely a way to add that in and make it balanced(maybe make it where all the people who dedicate to improving their skill in TF2 is rewarded rather than mindlessly farming/trading for the Aussies). It definitely can and probably would make Valve more money, I guess what needs to be considered is how much it will make them. I've kind of stated the obvious, but I thought it needed to be restated to remind people that there's always possibilities that aren't looked into enough or have been mentioned.
Also I apologize for the lack of knowledge on this duck stuff and MvM stuff, I never looked far into that kind of stuff or got time.
MasterKuni* (presumably) Fixing long-standing graphical and physics glitches
Is it possible that fixing physics glitches could include making pyro airblast reasonable? (not stop strafes, not work on the pyro's back or from 10 miles away)
[quote=MasterKuni]
* (presumably) Fixing long-standing graphical and physics glitches
[/quote]
Is it possible that fixing physics glitches could include making pyro airblast reasonable? (not stop strafes, not work on the pyro's back or from 10 miles away)
MonkeySuitMasterKuni* (presumably) Fixing long-standing graphical and physics glitches
Is it possible that fixing physics glitches could include making pyro airblast reasonable? (not stop strafes, not work on the pyro's back or from 10 miles away)
It is possible. I can only hope for that day so I can bathe in pyro main tears.
[quote=MonkeySuit][quote=MasterKuni]
* (presumably) Fixing long-standing graphical and physics glitches
[/quote]
Is it possible that fixing physics glitches could include making pyro airblast reasonable? (not stop strafes, not work on the pyro's back or from 10 miles away)[/quote]
It is possible. I can only hope for that day so I can bathe in pyro main tears.
PapaSmurf323https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq-YDeEfZWY#t=2m15s
"it took months to write it"
It was started, then no one did anything on it for a month or two, then it was finished. Then the match making leaks came out and there was panic, then it was finished again. About a week actual effort maybe? Lange is being a bit hyperbolic cos he's not happy. It happens, he's still The Man.
SideshowReally well articulated and informative. Just one thing I don't understand - why would they port tf2 over to source 2? I would imagine that the most important thing for Valve in tf2 is keeping the player numbers and economy at a stablish level; wouldn't porting it over ruin most of that and disrupt their huge source of income? How would it benefit them?
I have a degree in software engineering, lots of experience and a job, so you can take it from me that it's possible if they want to do it and they have architected the system with making it possible in mind. Only an in depth understanding of the differences between the two engines could give genuine insight into how hard it is or what the result would be, and that's something nobody here has. The benefits are obvious - the game stays up to date, latest shaders, better performance, longevity, etc. People forget TF2 is the first shooter (that's not an MMORPG) the publisher wants to live forever because of the hats.
On topic: whether it's a good idea for Valve to do something along these lines is only for them to decide, but the fact is they're doing something towards some kind of match making and the comp community would be remiss to not put ourselves in position to collaborate/offer our cooperation with that if it's possible. Whether it's a new game mode, something dumb or something we wouldn't recognise there's something appearing in the source code and it is not MvM.
However if you want a TF2 MMR without Valve Time I'll probably have something up in a few weeks ;)
[quote=PapaSmurf323]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq-YDeEfZWY#t=2m15s
"it took months to write it"[/quote]
It was started, then no one did anything on it for a month or two, then it was finished. Then the match making leaks came out and there was panic, then it was finished again. About a week actual effort maybe? Lange is being a bit hyperbolic cos he's not happy. It happens, he's still The Man.
[quote=Sideshow]Really well articulated and informative. Just one thing I don't understand - why would they port tf2 over to source 2? I would imagine that the most important thing for Valve in tf2 is keeping the player numbers and economy at a stablish level; wouldn't porting it over ruin most of that and disrupt their huge source of income? How would it benefit them?[/quote]
I have a degree in software engineering, lots of experience and a job, so you can take it from me that it's possible if they want to do it and they have architected the system with making it possible in mind. Only an in depth understanding of the differences between the two engines could give genuine insight into how hard it is or what the result would be, and that's something nobody here has. The benefits are obvious - the game stays up to date, latest shaders, better performance, longevity, etc. People forget TF2 is the first shooter (that's not an MMORPG) the publisher wants to live forever because of the hats.
On topic: whether it's a good idea for Valve to do something along these lines is only for them to decide, but the fact is they're doing something towards some kind of match making and the comp community would be remiss to not put ourselves in position to collaborate/offer our cooperation with that if it's possible. Whether it's a new game mode, something dumb or something we wouldn't recognise there's something appearing in the source code and it is not MvM.
However if you want a TF2 MMR without Valve Time I'll probably have something up in a few weeks ;)
GentlemanJonHowever if you want a TF2 MMR without Valve Time I'll probably have something up in a few weeks ;)
Just helping you avoid being misunderstood :)
MMR stands for matchmaking rating
[quote=GentlemanJon]
However if you want a TF2 MM[size=14][b]R[/b][/size] without Valve Time I'll probably have something up in a few weeks ;)[/quote]
Just helping you avoid being misunderstood :)
MMR stands for matchmaking rating
I'm pretty sure that was intentional.
I'm pretty sure that was intentional.
thesupremecommanderI'm pretty sure that was intentional.
I know it, but I'm either sleepy or my english is just shit, what I should have said was "being misunderstood" :P
[quote=thesupremecommander]I'm pretty sure that was intentional.[/quote]
I know it, but I'm either sleepy or my english is just shit, what I should have said was "being misunderstood" :P
I don't know if you guys ever noticed but valve had recorded some of their panels during the steam dev days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwv1G3WFSfI
I don't know if you guys ever noticed but valve had recorded some of their panels during the steam dev days.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwv1G3WFSfI[/youtube]