http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=5958
I'll edit in a changelog, but we've had this compiled for like 2 days already so it makes no sense putting it off further :D
changelog (probably missing a bunch of stuff)
- china shortened to affect sniper sightlines
- rock slightly reshaped to affect sniper sightlines
- a lot of texture bugs/errors, and tiny cracks in the map fixed
- problems with surfing the stairs on concrete are fixed
- lots of splash bugs fixed (evened out ground, all stairs have blockbullet layers, tracks near spawn removed etc)
- some railings that didn't really provide anything were removed to nerf some annoying minisentry spots
- bridge is higher on mid
- 'hitbox' of the rock and fence should be better
- the rocks above cliff can no longer be built on
- some overhanging parts of roofs have been clipped for jumping/getting juggled
- moved the small ammo packs on concrete slightly into less dangerous positions
- wood panels on mid have been made larger to block sightlines
- projectiles can no longer be shot over the houses connecting the spawn to mid
some pics, sorry for the terrible quality
shortened china, removed railings
http://puu.sh/dQibf/5ad0694d60.jpg
heightened bridge, sightline differences from shortened china + rock shape (this is standing on the very edge of china)
http://puu.sh/dP9IP/98b56f6000.jpg
(compared to pro_rc4 http://puu.sh/dPa3N/6ce879be97.jpg - crappy gif to compare the 2 http://i.imgur.com/dDnu49t.gif)
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=5958
I'll edit in a changelog, but we've had this compiled for like 2 days already so it makes no sense putting it off further :D
changelog (probably missing a bunch of stuff)
[quote]- china shortened to affect sniper sightlines
- rock slightly reshaped to affect sniper sightlines
- a lot of texture bugs/errors, and tiny cracks in the map fixed
- problems with surfing the stairs on concrete are fixed
- lots of splash bugs fixed (evened out ground, all stairs have blockbullet layers, tracks near spawn removed etc)
- some railings that didn't really provide anything were removed to nerf some annoying minisentry spots
- bridge is higher on mid
- 'hitbox' of the rock and fence should be better
- the rocks above cliff can no longer be built on
- some overhanging parts of roofs have been clipped for jumping/getting juggled
- moved the small ammo packs on concrete slightly into less dangerous positions
- wood panels on mid have been made larger to block sightlines
- projectiles can no longer be shot over the houses connecting the spawn to mid
[/quote]
some pics, sorry for the terrible quality
shortened china, removed railings
[img]http://puu.sh/dQibf/5ad0694d60.jpg[/img]
heightened bridge, sightline differences from shortened china + rock shape (this is standing on the very edge of china)
[img]http://puu.sh/dP9IP/98b56f6000.jpg[/img]
(compared to pro_rc4 http://puu.sh/dPa3N/6ce879be97.jpg - crappy gif to compare the 2 http://i.imgur.com/dDnu49t.gif)
crossing my fingers that the bridge thing above mid is placed higher/removed
crossing my fingers that the bridge thing above mid is placed higher/removed
Spannzercrossing my fingers that the bridge thing above mid is placed higher/removed
yep
[quote=Spannzer]crossing my fingers that the bridge thing above mid is placed higher/removed[/quote]
yep
Spannzercrossing my fingers that the bridge thing above mid is placed higher/removed
Like I suggested before, I don't hope it's removed, it looks nice, and also doesn't encourage to make retarded demo plays jump from one way of the map to the other with just two stickies, making it slightly higher is fine tho
[quote=Spannzer]crossing my fingers that the bridge thing above mid is placed higher/removed[/quote]
Like I suggested before, I don't hope it's removed, it looks nice, and also doesn't encourage to make retarded demo plays jump from one way of the map to the other with just two stickies, making it slightly higher is fine tho
I think the bridge is just raised and the sniper sightlines are a lot better. Overall good changes.
I think the bridge is just raised and the sniper sightlines are a lot better. Overall good changes.
GoobledegakI think the bridge is just raised and the sniper sightlines are a lot better. Overall good changes.
they're the main balance changes yeah, otherwise there's a metric fuckton of bugfixes
I'll post up a shit changelog now, but it'll be missing a bunch of stuff probably
- china shortened to affect sniper sightlines
- rock slightly reshaped to affect sniper sightlines
- a lot of texture bugs/errors, and tiny cracks in the map fixed
- problems with surfing the stairs on concrete are fixed
- lots of splash bugs fixed (evened out ground, all stairs have blockbullet layers, tracks near spawn removed etc)
- some railings that didn't really provide anything were removed to nerf some annoying minisentry spots
- bridge is higher on mid
- 'hitbox' of the rock and fence should be better
- the rocks above cliff can no longer be built on
- some overhanging parts of roofs have been clipped for jumping/getting juggled
- fixed getting stuck on some stuff when sliding against walls (ie: the windows on house)
but yeah, we weren't really intending on making drastic changes cause it's already a really solid map and there's no point changing things for the sake of variety, just tweaked balance a bit
if anyone feels like taking pics for me to put in the OP for some of the balance changes listed that'd be swell
[quote=Goobledegak]I think the bridge is just raised and the sniper sightlines are a lot better. Overall good changes.[/quote]
they're the main balance changes yeah, otherwise there's a metric fuckton of bugfixes
I'll post up a shit changelog now, but it'll be missing a bunch of stuff probably
[quote]
- china shortened to affect sniper sightlines
- rock slightly reshaped to affect sniper sightlines
- a lot of texture bugs/errors, and tiny cracks in the map fixed
- problems with surfing the stairs on concrete are fixed
- lots of splash bugs fixed (evened out ground, all stairs have blockbullet layers, tracks near spawn removed etc)
- some railings that didn't really provide anything were removed to nerf some annoying minisentry spots
- bridge is higher on mid
- 'hitbox' of the rock and fence should be better
- the rocks above cliff can no longer be built on
- some overhanging parts of roofs have been clipped for jumping/getting juggled
- fixed getting stuck on some stuff when sliding against walls (ie: the windows on house)[/quote]
but yeah, we weren't really intending on making drastic changes cause it's already a really solid map and there's no point changing things for the sake of variety, just tweaked balance a bit
if anyone feels like taking pics for me to put in the OP for some of the balance changes listed that'd be swell
great job, love the changes!
fubar mentioned in his stream that this lighting issue can be fixed, but it wasn't?
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166222867803/05901E732620B281378B11BE2CC154C21DBFBC7F/[/img]
some clipping issues with the fence:
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166222891332/BE47A3744FFE4FAC5A18A11ADAD7DF43C0C27B75/[/img]
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166222913839/922869AEEFE74A32E6B65C3B5FCF073CA853378C/[/img]
you can shoot through the rock here:
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166223551969/26AF01570D17DD8FF9C5A4E88E4A6DA24403AD74/[/img]
which differs from the other side(slight advantage):
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166223553400/64D1F7293856CD3048D13D438FE9A68249D9355C/[/img]
you can stand on this edge:
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166223780748/357D8581294133900B4B2F7960F850DBAE25EB26/[/img]
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166223775023/20323C1B82CB610F1C580C84BE42C82164A61133/[/img]
hole in the map i found by mistake, the house also clips:
[img]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166223694164/D1BDD4275DEE6FDF528A27E6E5B89E9B7715C3BA/[/img]
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166223690573/D01B0498DF5143395D916B0E6EDBC604790F2576/[/img]
this crack wasn't covered but it's not a big deal:
[img]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166223804941/55E2415CEF6C63C90F9420B323F5DA365909F684/[/img]
thanks for the feedback.
unlikely to push out a new version just for these fixes after a day of release, but maybe it'll get fixed later in the future when we (inevitably) have a bigger list of things to fix
thanks for the feedback.
unlikely to push out a new version just for these fixes after a day of release, but maybe it'll get fixed later in the future when we (inevitably) have a bigger list of things to fix
JackyLegsfubar mentioned in his stream that this lighting issue can be fixed, but it wasn't?
so the thing is that those metal sheets are using the same triangles for the front and back faces. in theory that's great because we get half the triangle count BUT a triangle cannot have different lighting for each of its sides. so the same lighting is used on both sides of the model. that's why they look really off. it can't be fixed unless I replace the metal sheets with something else (which I might do at some point).
JackyLegsyou can shoot through the rock here:
so the thing with those rocks... while the rocks are not symmetrical (it would look sorta odd if they were) their collision IS symmetrical, which leads to some oddities in solidity. I think symmetrical collision is preferable but there's no perfect answer for this area. I could try and make it a little better in the future. but yeah, there's also the issue of hiding stickies in there.
as far as everything else goes, good finds
[quote=JackyLegs]
fubar mentioned in his stream that this lighting issue can be fixed, but it wasn't?
[/quote]
so the thing is that those metal sheets are using the same triangles for the front and back faces. in theory that's great because we get half the triangle count BUT a triangle cannot have different lighting for each of its sides. so the same lighting is used on both sides of the model. that's why they look really off. it can't be fixed unless I replace the metal sheets with something else (which I might do at some point).
[quote=JackyLegs]
you can shoot through the rock here:
[/quote]
so the thing with those rocks... while the rocks are not symmetrical (it would look sorta odd if they were) their collision IS symmetrical, which leads to some oddities in solidity. I think symmetrical collision is preferable but there's no perfect answer for this area. I could try and make it a little better in the future. but yeah, there's also the issue of hiding stickies in there.
as far as everything else goes, good finds
I feel like the china nerf wasnt enough ;_;
I feel like the china nerf wasnt enough ;_;
really liking these changes, hope this version is used in esea and ugc this season :>
really liking these changes, hope this version is used in esea and ugc this season :>
SetletI feel like the china nerf wasnt enough ;_;
maybe not, I'd rather have a slow nerf over a few versions if necessary rather than taking a baseball bat straight to the snipers knees though, we'll see
[quote=Setlet]I feel like the china nerf wasnt enough ;_;[/quote]
maybe not, I'd rather have a slow nerf over a few versions if necessary rather than taking a baseball bat straight to the snipers knees though, we'll see
Not sure why the small ammo was moved as well as removing the railing?
http://puu.sh/dU0gX/0ce2742f10.jpg
Personally liked where the ammo was and using the railing to dodge and jump around was fun as well.
http://puu.sh/dU1f7/4fa7c7099f.jpg
Not 100% about how you handled the china sniper nerf thing, I think it makes the building look pretty weird overall and adding that little bar seems kinda pointless since there are like 3 other ways to get up to there for scout.
http://puu.sh/dU1Qd/f699ce411b.jpg
Pretty large gap between the roof and the actual building
http://puu.sh/dU2fH/b78dcd7197.jpg
Also pretty unsure about what you did around the mid point regarding the displacements. I don't really think the sticky trap on the log at point was ever really an issue. Also raising the displacements on the edge near the medium ammo to try and remove the splash bug seems like a poor solution, you could have just made some small angled bulletblock brushes to prevent it. Now the ledge just kinda seems like it'd be way more annoying if it blocked splash since I didn't see you add bulletblock on the stream but you might have done that afterwards.
http://puu.sh/dU2E7/e96a3dc98e.jpg
The clipping on fenceside cliff is still pretty inaccurate, I'm not 100% sure how to best explain it in a picture so what I did was use r_drawclipbrush 2 and shot where the edge of the clipping brush was compared to the actual fence model.
http://puu.sh/dU2QP/b73b42aa2c.jpg
You can still get caught on the wall here, seems like it is only on the blue side of the map.
overall a pretty good update. Hopefully you'll make a quick revision soonish but I doubt you'll be able to do that in time for the next season.
Not sure why the small ammo was moved as well as removing the railing?
[img]http://puu.sh/dU0gX/0ce2742f10.jpg[/img]
Personally liked where the ammo was and using the railing to dodge and jump around was fun as well.
[img]http://puu.sh/dU1f7/4fa7c7099f.jpg[/img]
Not 100% about how you handled the china sniper nerf thing, I think it makes the building look pretty weird overall and adding that little bar seems kinda pointless since there are like 3 other ways to get up to there for scout.
[img]http://puu.sh/dU1Qd/f699ce411b.jpg[/img]
Pretty large gap between the roof and the actual building
[img]http://puu.sh/dU2fH/b78dcd7197.jpg[/img]
Also pretty unsure about what you did around the mid point regarding the displacements. I don't really think the sticky trap on the log at point was ever really an issue. Also raising the displacements on the edge near the medium ammo to try and remove the splash bug seems like a poor solution, you could have just made some small angled bulletblock brushes to prevent it. Now the ledge just kinda seems like it'd be way more annoying if it blocked splash since I didn't see you add bulletblock on the stream but you might have done that afterwards.
[img]http://puu.sh/dU2E7/e96a3dc98e.jpg[/img]
The clipping on fenceside cliff is still pretty inaccurate, I'm not 100% sure how to best explain it in a picture so what I did was use r_drawclipbrush 2 and shot where the edge of the clipping brush was compared to the actual fence model.
[img]http://puu.sh/dU2QP/b73b42aa2c.jpg[/img]
You can still get caught on the wall here, seems like it is only on the blue side of the map.
overall a pretty good update. Hopefully you'll make a quick revision soonish but I doubt you'll be able to do that in time for the next season.
Going to scrim this tomorrow if I can. Looks like a good change!
Going to scrim this tomorrow if I can. Looks like a good change!
found more holes randomly:
[img]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/550895166233590755/4AE40E4A4E9B964A6D387AD8F1685E4FD5CAF815/[/img]
[img]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/550895166234157367/775E7CD683AE2ED9C3341165D3EBF8C9224A3C90/[/img]
some aesthetics things that caught my eye:
this stairway and the board on top of it seems misplaced and awkward:
[img]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/550895166233772522/DC8BE1FF03191A0858A8E0889D42B9B212FA9831/[/img]
for some reason these gaps are driving me crazy:
[img]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/550895166233795291/F7CACC18DEF647671835C25EE16DDC5E3FC70972/[/img]
[img]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/550895166233798859/142FC57917FE8EED5792029EA08F010383697C4A/[/img]
im with benroads on moving back the pack to where it was, this is just awkward and misplaced:
[img]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/550895166233956159/6935AD8E730FEB0AB6BA58C8A49A21E594CFDAD5/[/img]
you can also build on top here, and get there as an engie without needing a wrangler (not sure if this is much of a problem, but since you removed the ability to build on top of rock, i guess this makes some sense aswell):
[img]http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/550895166234015590/1808513C961C9478AA8B4A2B1B758459041F1C2A/[/img]
really hope you can put out a new version soon enough before ETF2L S20, ESEA S18 and UGC S15, since all 3 are coming up and this map is crucial in every league.
BenroadsNot sure why the small ammo was moved as well as removing the railing?
Dunno about the ammo pack, but the railing soaked up bullets and rockets and provided little benefit so removing it was a better option.
[quote=Benroads]Not sure why the small ammo was moved as well as removing the railing?
[/quote]
Dunno about the ammo pack, but the railing soaked up bullets and rockets and provided little benefit so removing it was a better option.
I like it balance-wise but I think it looks worse
guess you can't have everything
I like it balance-wise but I think it looks worse
guess you can't have everything
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39366323/koth_viaduct_pro5.bsp.bz2
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39366323/koth_viaduct_pro5.bsp
The tf2maps download is so slow, here's a dropbox download.
hey, so
we'll be pushing out the (probably final?) version of viaduct very soon hopefully - if anyone has any bugs that weren't reported in this thread already with the current version, or if anyone has any suggestions on how to make the map better visually (something else we'll try to do with this version), please let us know
hey, so
we'll be pushing out the (probably final?) version of viaduct very soon hopefully - if anyone has any bugs that weren't reported in this thread already with the current version, or if anyone has any suggestions on how to make the map better visually (something else we'll try to do with this version), please let us know
ALERT: I'm a perfectionist
http://puu.sh/hlN6z/1ad69f67a9.jpg make this lip non-solid
http://puu.sh/hlNpX/a969cf6e06.jpg make this diagonal thing non-solid or remove it
http://puu.sh/hlOqo/4c6d16fbfe.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOEq/5d95a9dc3a.jpg Ditto
Make the skybox a bit higher, if I do a single vertical rocket jump from cliff i bump the ceiling.
http://puu.sh/hlNyo/c2ade710ee.jpg make the geometry simpler here, you shouldn't get stuck anywhere underneath the stairs/balcony. Remove/make the supporting things non-solid and put a clip brush so you don't get stuck on the lip.
http://puu.sh/hlNFO/2b542324f5.jpg Make this part of the roof non-solid so you don't get stuck on it during a vertical rocket jump
http://puu.sh/hlO5C/2820bc3749.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOur/faa7c76597.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOxW/bc63a2e52d.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOxb/0e0d39f4c4.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlNKz/1ee29c4a77.jpg This happens on both sides and is a bug caused by the door frame not being drawn because of visleafs. Make the doorframe a brush instead and it shouldn't happen anymore. Making the doorframe a brush should also fix this bug: http://puu.sh/hlNP8/fa20245144.jpg
http://puu.sh/hlNSg/f083b2767d.jpg Make this lip non-solid so that you don't get stuck on it.
http://puu.sh/hlNU9/c2c877d9ee.jpg The geometry on this isn't optimal for rocket fights as there are quite a lot of splash bugs. Simplify the geometry here.
http://puu.sh/hlNXk/fa374a09d0.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOeC/0bbd4828b1.jpg Ditto (maybe enclose the "storage" in chicken net. http://puu.sh/hlOk4/468146c5b7.jpg clip brush this window, http://puu.sh/hlOlO/38aa189118.jpg Remove the vent or make it non-solid or something. Make the fence non-solid and raise the floor or just cover it with a blockbullet brush. It would also be best to remove the electrical switch but it's not really important.
http://puu.sh/hlOzr/1dd4315a09.jpg Blockbullet brush on walls like this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOBw/daf7f66353.jpg Clip brush the beams so you don't get stuck on them
http://puu.sh/hlOHk/c52c4a7bc1.jpg Make tiny blockbullet ramps on all places like this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOUr/2223625f06.jpg Blockbullet this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOW8/4069ebc2e6.jpg Ditto
ALERT: I'm a perfectionist
http://puu.sh/hlN6z/1ad69f67a9.jpg make this lip non-solid
http://puu.sh/hlNpX/a969cf6e06.jpg make this diagonal thing non-solid or remove it
http://puu.sh/hlOqo/4c6d16fbfe.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOEq/5d95a9dc3a.jpg Ditto
Make the skybox a bit higher, if I do a single vertical rocket jump from cliff i bump the ceiling.
http://puu.sh/hlNyo/c2ade710ee.jpg make the geometry simpler here, you shouldn't get stuck anywhere underneath the stairs/balcony. Remove/make the supporting things non-solid and put a clip brush so you don't get stuck on the lip.
http://puu.sh/hlNFO/2b542324f5.jpg Make this part of the roof non-solid so you don't get stuck on it during a vertical rocket jump
http://puu.sh/hlO5C/2820bc3749.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOur/faa7c76597.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOxW/bc63a2e52d.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOxb/0e0d39f4c4.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlNKz/1ee29c4a77.jpg This happens on both sides and is a bug caused by the door frame not being drawn because of visleafs. Make the doorframe a brush instead and it shouldn't happen anymore. Making the doorframe a brush should also fix this bug: http://puu.sh/hlNP8/fa20245144.jpg
http://puu.sh/hlNSg/f083b2767d.jpg Make this lip non-solid so that you don't get stuck on it.
http://puu.sh/hlNU9/c2c877d9ee.jpg The geometry on this isn't optimal for rocket fights as there are quite a lot of splash bugs. Simplify the geometry here.
http://puu.sh/hlNXk/fa374a09d0.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOeC/0bbd4828b1.jpg Ditto (maybe enclose the "storage" in chicken net. http://puu.sh/hlOk4/468146c5b7.jpg clip brush this window, http://puu.sh/hlOlO/38aa189118.jpg Remove the vent or make it non-solid or something. Make the fence non-solid and raise the floor or just cover it with a blockbullet brush. It would also be best to remove the electrical switch but it's not really important.
http://puu.sh/hlOzr/1dd4315a09.jpg Blockbullet brush on walls like this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOBw/daf7f66353.jpg Clip brush the beams so you don't get stuck on them
http://puu.sh/hlOHk/c52c4a7bc1.jpg Make tiny blockbullet ramps on all places like this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOUr/2223625f06.jpg Blockbullet this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOW8/4069ebc2e6.jpg Ditto
the map is already getting very close to finish with all of the changes listed in this thread (and some that fubar initially dismissed as implausible)
quick teaser image showing the team coloured houses and the fixed lighting on china among other things (I play with bad settings so this probably will look more pretty for others)
http://puu.sh/hmNSq/e7ce20615c.jpg
the map is already getting very close to finish with all of the changes listed in this thread (and some that fubar initially dismissed as implausible)
quick teaser image showing the team coloured houses and the fixed lighting on china among other things (I play with bad settings so this probably will look more pretty for others)
http://puu.sh/hmNSq/e7ce20615c.jpg
Removing the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.
Removing the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.
GiraffeRemoving the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.
Don't forget the beast that is Heavy that abuses the fuck out of that too.
-edit-
I'd hate seeing the entire white fence go, I understand it makes sniper horrible to play against though, maybe compromise by shortening the white fence so snipers can only see either left or right not both.
[quote=Giraffe]Removing the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.[/quote]
Don't forget the beast that is Heavy that abuses the fuck out of that too.
-edit-
I'd hate seeing the entire white fence go, I understand it makes sniper horrible to play against though, maybe compromise by shortening the white fence so snipers can only see either left or right not both.
ComangliaGiraffeRemoving the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.
Don't forget the beast that is Heavy that abuses the fuck out of that too.
-edit-
I'd hate seeing the entire white fence go, I understand it makes sniper horrible to play against though, maybe compromise by shortening the white fence so snipers can only see either left or right not both.
not happening I think, not convinced that it's really needed, but if everyone speaks out strongly about it, it can be done
[quote=Comanglia][quote=Giraffe]Removing the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.[/quote]
Don't forget the beast that is Heavy that abuses the fuck out of that too.
-edit-
I'd hate seeing the entire white fence go, I understand it makes sniper horrible to play against though, maybe compromise by shortening the white fence so snipers can only see either left or right not both.[/quote]
not happening I think, not convinced that it's really needed, but if everyone speaks out strongly about it, it can be done
Ond_kajaALERT: I'm a perfectionist
http://puu.sh/hlN6z/1ad69f67a9.jpg make this lip non-solid
http://puu.sh/hlNpX/a969cf6e06.jpg make this diagonal thing non-solid or remove it
http://puu.sh/hlOqo/4c6d16fbfe.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOEq/5d95a9dc3a.jpg Ditto
Make the skybox a bit higher, if I do a single vertical rocket jump from cliff i bump the ceiling.
http://puu.sh/hlNyo/c2ade710ee.jpg make the geometry simpler here, you shouldn't get stuck anywhere underneath the stairs/balcony. Remove/make the supporting things non-solid and put a clip brush so you don't get stuck on the lip.
http://puu.sh/hlNFO/2b542324f5.jpg Make this part of the roof non-solid so you don't get stuck on it during a vertical rocket jump
http://puu.sh/hlO5C/2820bc3749.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOur/faa7c76597.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOxW/bc63a2e52d.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOxb/0e0d39f4c4.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlNKz/1ee29c4a77.jpg This happens on both sides and is a bug caused by the door frame not being drawn because of visleafs. Make the doorframe a brush instead and it shouldn't happen anymore. Making the doorframe a brush should also fix this bug: http://puu.sh/hlNP8/fa20245144.jpg
http://puu.sh/hlNSg/f083b2767d.jpg Make this lip non-solid so that you don't get stuck on it.
http://puu.sh/hlNU9/c2c877d9ee.jpg The geometry on this isn't optimal for rocket fights as there are quite a lot of splash bugs. Simplify the geometry here.
http://puu.sh/hlNXk/fa374a09d0.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOeC/0bbd4828b1.jpg Ditto (maybe enclose the "storage" in chicken net. http://puu.sh/hlOk4/468146c5b7.jpg clip brush this window, http://puu.sh/hlOlO/38aa189118.jpg Remove the vent or make it non-solid or something. Make the fence non-solid and raise the floor or just cover it with a blockbullet brush. It would also be best to remove the electrical switch but it's not really important.
http://puu.sh/hlOzr/1dd4315a09.jpg Blockbullet brush on walls like this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOBw/daf7f66353.jpg Clip brush the beams so you don't get stuck on them
http://puu.sh/hlOHk/c52c4a7bc1.jpg Make tiny blockbullet ramps on all places like this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOUr/2223625f06.jpg Blockbullet this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOW8/4069ebc2e6.jpg Ditto
how the fuck did you find all of this
[quote=Ond_kaja]ALERT: I'm a perfectionist
http://puu.sh/hlN6z/1ad69f67a9.jpg make this lip non-solid
http://puu.sh/hlNpX/a969cf6e06.jpg make this diagonal thing non-solid or remove it
http://puu.sh/hlOqo/4c6d16fbfe.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOEq/5d95a9dc3a.jpg Ditto
Make the skybox a bit higher, if I do a single vertical rocket jump from cliff i bump the ceiling.
http://puu.sh/hlNyo/c2ade710ee.jpg make the geometry simpler here, you shouldn't get stuck anywhere underneath the stairs/balcony. Remove/make the supporting things non-solid and put a clip brush so you don't get stuck on the lip.
http://puu.sh/hlNFO/2b542324f5.jpg Make this part of the roof non-solid so you don't get stuck on it during a vertical rocket jump
http://puu.sh/hlO5C/2820bc3749.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOur/faa7c76597.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOxW/bc63a2e52d.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOxb/0e0d39f4c4.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlNKz/1ee29c4a77.jpg This happens on both sides and is a bug caused by the door frame not being drawn because of visleafs. Make the doorframe a brush instead and it shouldn't happen anymore. Making the doorframe a brush should also fix this bug: http://puu.sh/hlNP8/fa20245144.jpg
http://puu.sh/hlNSg/f083b2767d.jpg Make this lip non-solid so that you don't get stuck on it.
http://puu.sh/hlNU9/c2c877d9ee.jpg The geometry on this isn't optimal for rocket fights as there are quite a lot of splash bugs. Simplify the geometry here.
http://puu.sh/hlNXk/fa374a09d0.jpg Ditto
http://puu.sh/hlOeC/0bbd4828b1.jpg Ditto (maybe enclose the "storage" in chicken net. http://puu.sh/hlOk4/468146c5b7.jpg clip brush this window, http://puu.sh/hlOlO/38aa189118.jpg Remove the vent or make it non-solid or something. Make the fence non-solid and raise the floor or just cover it with a blockbullet brush. It would also be best to remove the electrical switch but it's not really important.
http://puu.sh/hlOzr/1dd4315a09.jpg Blockbullet brush on walls like this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOBw/daf7f66353.jpg Clip brush the beams so you don't get stuck on them
http://puu.sh/hlOHk/c52c4a7bc1.jpg Make tiny blockbullet ramps on all places like this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOUr/2223625f06.jpg Blockbullet this to avoid splash bugs
http://puu.sh/hlOW8/4069ebc2e6.jpg Ditto[/quote]
how the fuck did you find all of this
ComangliaGiraffeRemoving the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.
Don't forget the beast that is Heavy that abuses the fuck out of that too.
-edit-
I'd hate seeing the entire white fence go, I understand it makes sniper horrible to play against though, maybe compromise by shortening the white fence so snipers can only see either left or right not both.
Eh, for once, I think Giraffe has a point. A Sniper who has the cover of their entire team is pretty irritating. Sniper is already strong on koth in general, and it's really not so easy as to "just have the Spy stab him" when there's aware players who press tab and listen in Mumble. Sniper has plenty of other strong spots that they can abuse, they don't need more. :P
[quote=Comanglia][quote=Giraffe]Removing the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.[/quote]
Don't forget the beast that is Heavy that abuses the fuck out of that too.
-edit-
I'd hate seeing the entire white fence go, I understand it makes sniper horrible to play against though, maybe compromise by shortening the white fence so snipers can only see either left or right not both.[/quote]
Eh, for once, I think Giraffe has a point. A Sniper who has the cover of their entire team is pretty irritating. Sniper is already strong on koth in general, and it's really not so easy as to "just have the Spy stab him" when there's aware players who press tab and listen in Mumble. Sniper has plenty of other strong spots that they can abuse, they don't need more. :P
KatsyComangliaGiraffeRemoving the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.
Don't forget the beast that is Heavy that abuses the fuck out of that too.
-edit-
I'd hate seeing the entire white fence go, I understand it makes sniper horrible to play against though, maybe compromise by shortening the white fence so snipers can only see either left or right not both.
Eh, for once, I think Giraffe has a point. A Sniper who has the cover of their entire team is pretty irritating. Sniper is already strong on koth in general, and it's really not so easy as to "just have the Spy stab him" when there's aware players who press tab and listen in Mumble. Sniper has plenty of other strong spots that they can abuse, they don't need more. :P
I also think a 185 sniper standing there with his heavy behind him is kind of really annoying and would like to see this fixed.
[quote=Katsy][quote=Comanglia][quote=Giraffe]Removing the white fence (http://puu.sh/hmSJA/d76b43a001.jpg) behind both of the big middle rocks would go a long way in making sniper more balanced on the map. Probably not used as much in 6s as in highlander, but in hl most snipers are able to sit on the white fence looking over the rock, have great cover, quickly change sight lines to see every entrance to point and be protected by his whole team. The majority if not all of the other sight lines on viaduct force the sniper to be either more isolated and/or more visible. The fence serves no other purpose but making sniper even stronger and would be great to have it gone.[/quote]
Don't forget the beast that is Heavy that abuses the fuck out of that too.
-edit-
I'd hate seeing the entire white fence go, I understand it makes sniper horrible to play against though, maybe compromise by shortening the white fence so snipers can only see either left or right not both.[/quote]
Eh, for once, I think Giraffe has a point. A Sniper who has the cover of their entire team is pretty irritating. Sniper is already strong on koth in general, and it's really not so easy as to "just have the Spy stab him" when there's aware players who press tab and listen in Mumble. Sniper has plenty of other strong spots that they can abuse, they don't need more. :P[/quote]
I also think a 185 sniper standing there with his heavy behind him is kind of really annoying and would like to see this fixed.
The fence adds a lot to the area, can use that to dodge rushing scouts and soldiers as medic. The sniper sightline from there is good but not as good as people make it out to be. Let the fence stay.
The fence adds a lot to the area, can use that to dodge rushing scouts and soldiers as medic. The sniper sightline from there is good but not as good as people make it out to be. Let the fence stay.
so, I've asked more than 10 top players from 6s + HL now, and this has turned out to be an INCREDIBLY divisive request - half think it's a good thing, useful for dodging etc, the other half think it's not (because of it being either annoying or OP, both being good reasons of course), so at the moment I'm unsure on how to proceed.
one 'compromise' option is to chop it down as suggested by comanglia - maybe making it a tad shorter as well as taking a little off of either side or something like that. Making it shorter is very likely to have the unintended side effect of giving him even more cover though...
http://puu.sh/hn4T1/00a62bcab4.jpg
there's a picture if anyone wants to have a go at MS paint mockups or something
so, I've asked more than 10 top players from 6s + HL now, and this has turned out to be an INCREDIBLY divisive request - half think it's a good thing, useful for dodging etc, the other half think it's not (because of it being either annoying or OP, both being good reasons of course), so at the moment I'm unsure on how to proceed.
one 'compromise' option is to chop it down as suggested by comanglia - maybe making it a tad shorter as well as taking a little off of either side or something like that. Making it shorter is very likely to have the unintended side effect of giving him even [b]more[/b] cover though...
http://puu.sh/hn4T1/00a62bcab4.jpg
there's a picture if anyone wants to have a go at MS paint mockups or something
Ond_kajaThe fence adds a lot to the area, can use that to dodge rushing scouts and soldiers as medic. The sniper sightline from there is good but not as good as people make it out to be. Let the fence stay.
I don't think you're talking about the same fence... the small white fence behind the rock does not in anyway affect rushing scouts or soldiers. The only affect it has on the game is makes sniper stronger.
[quote=Ond_kaja]The fence adds a lot to the area, can use that to dodge rushing scouts and soldiers as medic. The sniper sightline from there is good but not as good as people make it out to be. Let the fence stay.[/quote]
I don't think you're talking about the same fence... the small white fence behind the rock does not in anyway affect rushing scouts or soldiers. The only affect it has on the game is makes sniper stronger.