I know what you’re thinking. We’ve seen enough TF2Center drama this week already, right?
I’m going to ask you to bear with me, though, because not only are there things the community at large remains unaware of, but because I am so very angry.
Actually, I’m not just angry. I’m beyond furious at how the egos of one or two individuals have ruined something that was so good for the community and that had so much potential—something that they themselves created.
The last time I was this full of rage was when I realized that the Flares That Care charity stream was probably (and ultimately was) a scam. But do you remember what happened when that revelation came to light? The TF2 community pulled together and replaced it with something five times better.
And now I’d like to see us do it again.
But, first, here’s the backstory as to what pushed me to this point. I’m sure most of you are aware of the recent drama surrounding TF2Center. If you aren’t, it’s easy enough to look up; I’m not going to rehash it here. Suffice to say that the head of TF2Center messed up in a big way and the reputation of TF2Center took a huge hit.
Late Monday night TF2C admin Terry Crews asked if I would look over the statement the head of TF2C wanted to put out, in addition to versions written by himself and admin ninjaMooCow. He asked me, I assume, because we’ve developed a mutual trust, as well as a respect for each other’s dedication to the comp TF2 community. I’m not and have never been a TF2C admin, but my pen is usually greater than my DM, and he thought I could help.
Terry and I discussed the situation in length while I figured out what I wanted to do. On the one hand, I’d been increasingly concerned by the uneven adminship practices I’ve seen the head admins of TF2Center undertake; amongst other things, one of my teammates is part of the TC crowd and many of us know the issues they had with TF2C’s head admins. On the other hand, though, I loved the potential that TF2Center offered the community, and it’s really been obvious that most of its (current and former) admins are passionate about comp TF2.
Ultimately, I chose to read over the statements. I found that Terry Crews and ninjaMooCow had written unpolished and incomplete but sincerely apologetic statements, while the head of TF2C had written an “our side of the story” passive aggressive act of war. It was clear to me that none of those statements would be the PR saving grace TF2Center needed it to be.
I decided that everyone deserves a second chance, and so I agreed to write a new statement. I worked for 8 hours overnight in hopes of meeting TF2Center’s planned (European scheduled) deadline, with Terry doing research and answering questions for me throughout it. I finished at 7am ET on Tuesday and Terry read through it, agreed with all but four words, and posted it to the TF2C admin boards. We both agreed that it would be far easier if everyone assumed they were his words, and, in fact, a good portion of the statement’s sentiment came from his and moocow’s writings.
Unfortunately, the statement was met with significant resistance by the head of TF2C, while the remainder of the staff fought to post it. Flash forward to the end of the day and the TF2C staff remained unable to agree on it. Terry and I discussed the matter and I listed for him the points I felt absolutely had to be included for the statement to carry any weight, and he used that information to work with TF2C’s "PR" admin Marty. Together they cut out the areas the head admins had the most difficulty with, and, without the head admin’s approval, Marty posted the statement.*
It took about 2 hours for the head of TF2C to delete the thread, write a scathing post to all the moderators, and to relieve Marty of his adminship...and change Marty's label on the TF2Center forums to “clown.”
So that’s why I’m so angry. And, to me, TF2Center’s second chance has been used up and it’s time to move on.
How do we move on though? That’s where you guys come in.
TF2Pickup.net has potential, but it doesn’t quite fill the niche that TF2Center does. With proper community feedback and involvement maybe that could change, though. What changes do we think it would need in order to serve the same playerbase as TF2Center?
tf2pug.me also has potential, and does anyone recall tf2.gg? There are good resources available to us if we set about to properly utilize them
There is obviously passion for lobbies to exist in comp TF2. I hope we as a community can band together and create a service that surpasses TF2Center. We need to learn from the mistakes TF2Center made, most of which stemmed from the abuse of admin power, especially in the face of criticism (I suspect I’ll have a TF2C ban shortly to add weight to that statement). Having said that, however, I hope we also remember that most of TF2Center’s admins were fair and dedicated to the community, and that it’s very likely many of them are now free and available to offer their time and experience in whichever direction the community decides to take this.
TF2Center was fun while it lasted, and, all issues aside, I am grateful to its developers for creating it. However, it’s obvious that the time has come for something greater. I look forward to seeing what you guys put together. The comp TF2 community have accomplished amazing things, and we’ve kept this “dead” game going for a lot longer than our critics thought we could.
Here’s to our future.
*As a side note, I found the released statement to be about 70% of what I wrote, with about 5% inserted in (including an odd, passive aggressive slight to kkaltuu). I still remain a bit confused as to where the 500 euro bribe was coming from, but I was not a fan of the other changes. That being said, I think it was an okay response. If you’d like to read what it could have been, here’s what I originally wrote.
I know what you’re thinking. We’ve seen enough TF2Center drama this week already, right?
I’m going to ask you to bear with me, though, because not only are there things the community at large remains unaware of, but because I am so very angry.
Actually, I’m not just angry. I’m beyond furious at how the egos of one or two individuals have ruined something that was so good for the community and that had so much potential—something that they themselves created.
The last time I was this full of rage was when I realized that the Flares That Care charity stream was probably (and ultimately was) a scam. But do you remember what happened when that revelation came to light? The TF2 community pulled together and replaced it with something five times better.
And now I’d like to see us do it again.
But, first, here’s the backstory as to what pushed me to this point. I’m sure most of you are aware of the recent drama surrounding TF2Center. If you aren’t, it’s easy enough to look up; I’m not going to rehash it here. Suffice to say that the head of TF2Center messed up in a big way and the reputation of TF2Center took a huge hit.
Late Monday night TF2C admin Terry Crews asked if I would look over the statement the head of TF2C wanted to put out, in addition to versions written by himself and admin ninjaMooCow. He asked me, I assume, because we’ve developed a mutual trust, as well as a respect for each other’s dedication to the comp TF2 community. I’m not and have never been a TF2C admin, but my pen is usually greater than my DM, and he thought I could help.
Terry and I discussed the situation in length while I figured out what I wanted to do. On the one hand, I’d been increasingly concerned by the uneven adminship practices I’ve seen the head admins of TF2Center undertake; amongst other things, one of my teammates is part of the TC crowd and many of us know the issues they had with TF2C’s head admins. On the other hand, though, I loved the potential that TF2Center offered the community, and it’s really been obvious that most of its (current and former) admins are passionate about comp TF2.
Ultimately, I chose to read over the statements. I found that Terry Crews and ninjaMooCow had written unpolished and incomplete but sincerely apologetic statements, while the head of TF2C had written an “our side of the story” passive aggressive act of war. It was clear to me that none of those statements would be the PR saving grace TF2Center needed it to be.
I decided that everyone deserves a second chance, and so I agreed to write a new statement. I worked for 8 hours overnight in hopes of meeting TF2Center’s planned (European scheduled) deadline, with Terry doing research and answering questions for me throughout it. I finished at 7am ET on Tuesday and Terry read through it, agreed with all but four words, and posted it to the TF2C admin boards. We both agreed that it would be far easier if everyone assumed they were his words, and, in fact, a good portion of the statement’s sentiment came from his and moocow’s writings.
Unfortunately, the statement was met with significant resistance by the head of TF2C, while the remainder of the staff fought to post it. Flash forward to the end of the day and the TF2C staff remained unable to agree on it. Terry and I discussed the matter and I listed for him the points I felt absolutely had to be included for the statement to carry any weight, and he used that information to work with TF2C’s "PR" admin Marty. Together they cut out the areas the head admins had the most difficulty with, and, without the head admin’s approval, Marty posted the statement.*
It took about 2 hours for the head of TF2C to delete the thread, write a [url=http://i.imgur.com/hSFcgao.png]scathing[/url] post to all the moderators, and to relieve Marty of his adminship...and change Marty's label on the TF2Center forums to “clown.”
So that’s why I’m so angry. And, to me, TF2Center’s second chance has been used up and it’s time to move on.
How do we move on though? That’s where you guys come in.
TF2Pickup.net has potential, but it doesn’t quite fill the niche that TF2Center does. With proper community feedback and involvement maybe that could change, though. What changes do we think it would need in order to serve the same playerbase as TF2Center?
tf2pug.me also has potential, and does anyone recall tf2.gg? There are good resources available to us if we set about to properly utilize them
There is obviously passion for lobbies to exist in comp TF2. I hope we as a community can band together and create a service that surpasses TF2Center. We need to learn from the mistakes TF2Center made, most of which stemmed from the abuse of admin power, especially in the face of criticism (I suspect I’ll have a TF2C ban shortly to add weight to that statement). Having said that, however, I hope we also remember that most of TF2Center’s admins were fair and dedicated to the community, and that it’s very likely many of them are now free and available to offer their time and experience in whichever direction the community decides to take this.
TF2Center was fun while it lasted, and, all issues aside, I am grateful to its developers for creating it. However, it’s obvious that the time has come for something greater. I look forward to seeing what you guys put together. The comp TF2 community have accomplished amazing things, and we’ve kept this “dead” game going for a lot longer than our critics thought we could.
Here’s to our future.
[i]*As a side note, I found the released statement to be about 70% of what I wrote, with about 5% inserted in (including an odd, passive aggressive slight to kkaltuu). I still remain a bit confused as to where the 500 euro bribe was coming from, but I was not a fan of the other changes. That being said, I think it was an okay response. If you’d like to read what it could have been, [url=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OUPtiBxkrekIOnIXv-M44xZgvNJt3TKfXhiTtMnNcUw]here’s[/url] what I originally wrote.
[/i]
[img]http://www.feandft.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/dead-end.jpg[/img]
#bringbacktf2lobby
REM_TF2Double post but
EDIT 2: Apparently the clown thing was something Marty did to himself. Apologies.
might wanna edit the clown part Digresser other than that good write up
[quote=REM_TF2]Double post but
EDIT 2: Apparently the clown thing was something Marty did to himself. Apologies.[/quote]
might wanna edit the clown part Digresser other than that good write up
The first time I ever had a issue with TF2Center was when Masternoob was fucking up a lobby by kicking people who didn't join in 60 seconds and permabanned my friend when he tried to rejoin. When I tried along with my friend to get him unbanned a couple of months later nothing but a "still a kid also his name is obscene in another language no unban" came out of it from Masternoob himself.
I mean I have had plenty of problems with TF2Center but all of the actual things that make me not want to ever type the url into my search bar again, are because of that pisshead. Suffice to say I will never go on there again and I will help however I can to make a alternative happen. If anyone needs some graphic design work I would be glad to see if I can help with anything.
The first time I ever had a issue with TF2Center was when Masternoob was fucking up a lobby by kicking people who didn't join in 60 seconds and permabanned my friend when he tried to rejoin. When I tried along with my friend to get him unbanned a couple of months later nothing but a "still a kid also his name is obscene in another language no unban" came out of it from Masternoob himself.
I mean I have had plenty of problems with TF2Center but all of the actual things that make me not want to ever type the url into my search bar again, are because of that pisshead. Suffice to say I will never go on there again and I will help however I can to make a alternative happen. If anyone needs some graphic design work I would be glad to see if I can help with anything.
PyromancerREM_TF2Double post but
EDIT 2: Apparently the clown thing was something Marty did to himself. Apologies.
might wanna edit the clown part Digresser other than that good write up
Thanks, but that was actually R.E.M misunderstanding Marty's joke. Marty is not actually a clown, otherwise I would totally hire him the next time I throw a party. He didn't change the title himself.
[quote=Pyromancer][quote=REM_TF2]Double post but
EDIT 2: Apparently the clown thing was something Marty did to himself. Apologies.[/quote]
might wanna edit the clown part Digresser other than that good write up[/quote]
Thanks, but that was actually R.E.M misunderstanding Marty's joke. Marty is not actually a clown, otherwise I would totally hire him the next time I throw a party. He didn't change the title himself.
Anybody wants to help write a better replacement? Add me, maybe we can flesh out something
Matchmaking's going to come anyway, but it should be a fun experience nevertheless!
Anybody wants to help write a better replacement? Add me, maybe we can flesh out something
Matchmaking's going to come anyway, but it should be a fun experience nevertheless!
i havent had any problems with them at all
i havent had any problems with them at all
quick someone call FLOOR_MASTER and DJ_ROOMBA
quick someone call FLOOR_MASTER and DJ_ROOMBA
When you have mods saying shit like, "The thing is, users shouldn't necessarily know what will happen to them if they misbehave" you know you have a problem. That's some North Korea shit
When you have mods saying shit like, "The thing is, users shouldn't necessarily know what will happen to them if they misbehave" you know you have a problem. That's some North Korea shit
saamWhen you have mods saying shit like, "The thing is, users shouldn't necessarily know what will happen to them if they misbehave" you know you have a problem. That's some North Korea shit
lol, where was that said? i'm legitimately curious. that's hilarious
[quote=saam]When you have mods saying shit like, "The thing is, users shouldn't necessarily know what will happen to them if they misbehave" you know you have a problem. That's some North Korea shit[/quote]
lol, where was that said? i'm legitimately curious. that's hilarious
Farewell TF2C, not that I used it much, mostly cause their's a rather large part of the community that was pretty wrapped up with the whole fact I had less than 30 centers played, and would get kicked for it.
Farewell TF2C, not that I used it much, mostly cause their's a rather large part of the community that was pretty wrapped up with the whole fact I had less than 30 centers played, and would get kicked for it.
The major problem with TF2C for me was that administrative decisions were often made by those unqualified to make them. While Masternoob and Mother Tereza were qualified to make changes to the website in terms of development and coding, there was no line between those duties and duties such as bans and PR. On the contrary, people such as kkaltuu and REM are not exactly script kiddies, but they have a better understanding of how to deal with people, and are more equipped for administrative duties.
Of course, there were rare instances such as Foxy where you could manage both, but having no divide between the positions severely impacted the efficiency of the site.
As I mentioned in my PM to you Digresser, outstanding post, I couldn't have said it better myself.
The major problem with TF2C for me was that administrative decisions were often made by those unqualified to make them. While Masternoob and Mother Tereza were qualified to make changes to the website in terms of development and coding, there was no line between those duties and duties such as bans and PR. On the contrary, people such as kkaltuu and REM are not exactly script kiddies, but they have a better understanding of how to deal with people, and are more equipped for administrative duties.
Of course, there were rare instances such as Foxy where you could manage both, but having no divide between the positions severely impacted the efficiency of the site.
As I mentioned in my PM to you Digresser, outstanding post, I couldn't have said it better myself.
I attempted to tryout tf2pickup the other day only to find out that I needed an etf2l account to play.
If they remove that I'm all for it, I shouldn't have to make an account on a completely separate site just to play a pug.
I attempted to tryout tf2pickup the other day only to find out that I needed an etf2l account to play.
If they remove that I'm all for it, I shouldn't have to make an account on a completely separate site just to play a pug.
With the rumors of TF2 Matchmaking launching at the end of the Gun Mettle update (in 3 months), it may be worthwhile to wait and see what Valve comes up with. You'd want a TF2Center replacement to offer features that make it worth using over the Valve one, and it's easier to design features before you start writing code.
With the rumors of TF2 Matchmaking launching at the end of the Gun Mettle update (in 3 months), it may be worthwhile to wait and see what Valve comes up with. You'd want a TF2Center replacement to offer features that make it worth using over the Valve one, and it's easier to design features [i]before[/i] you start writing code.
that Marty guy is an admin? He used to be a blatant cheater on tf2lobby.
edit: whoops. the admin marty is not the cheater marty
that Marty guy is an admin? He used to be a blatant cheater on tf2lobby.
edit: whoops. the admin marty is not the cheater marty
whats the drama with tf2center? i only started playing tf2 again the past two days and I can't find it anywhere.
whats the drama with tf2center? i only started playing tf2 again the past two days and I can't find it anywhere.
This is such a great post, I've been asking myself why we should put up with this when we have so many talented people in the TF2 community. Masternoob + Mother Thereza did a great job on TF2C's design for the most part but they cannot be the only 2 people in a community of 1000s of players who can do this sort of thing.
TF2Pickup.net has potential, but it doesn’t quite fill the niche that TF2Center does. With proper community feedback and involvement maybe that could change, though. What changes do we think it would need in order to serve the same playerbase as TF2Center?
TF2Pickup have said time and again they're not interested in being like TF2C. What made TF2C special is that it was open and welcoming to players who were only just beginning their comp experience. TF2Pickup's unofficial motto is "this is not the place to come to learn TF2" and the attitude to new players amongst some of the TF2Pickup userbase is hostile. Not to say I don't like TF2Pickup, I use it all the time but it's never going to be a TF2C replacement because it dosen't want to be one.
tf2pug.me also has potential, and does anyone recall tf2.gg? There are good resources available to us if we set about to properly utilize them
TF2pug.me is even more exclusive and won't allow people outside of prem and the top 4 teams of high. Also they use one of TF2Center's servers so there could be potential retribution.
I think we should just start again and make a new site with a proper ELO system for balancing teams like TF2Pickup does rather than base it on TF2Playerrankings or league experience. Introduce a proper ranking system and ladder so people of similar skill levels are paired with each other so that everyone is happy. If such a site were to be welcoming to new players I would gladly get involved in whatever way you see fit.
I have experience in running servers through FTP, using sourcemod admin tools, setting up and running online communities and I also was a former mod at TF2C running the feedback section of the forums. I've also worked as a QA person for a software company.
Your biggest problem is gonna be servers. When TF2C started we had jayserp providing a ton of servers for the website, matches and internals like databases and testing servers. We need to talk to Arie about Serverme.tf because at the moment it's fully integrated with TF2C but I don't know if it'll stay that way or not.
This is such a great post, I've been asking myself why we should put up with this when we have so many talented people in the TF2 community. Masternoob + Mother Thereza did a great job on TF2C's design for the most part but they cannot be the only 2 people in a community of 1000s of players who can do this sort of thing.
[quote]TF2Pickup.net has potential, but it doesn’t quite fill the niche that TF2Center does. With proper community feedback and involvement maybe that could change, though. What changes do we think it would need in order to serve the same playerbase as TF2Center?[/quote]
TF2Pickup have said time and again they're not interested in being like TF2C. What made TF2C special is that it was open and welcoming to players who were only just beginning their comp experience. TF2Pickup's unofficial motto is "this is not the place to come to learn TF2" and the attitude to new players amongst some of the TF2Pickup userbase is hostile. Not to say I don't like TF2Pickup, I use it all the time but it's never going to be a TF2C replacement because it dosen't want to be one.
[quote]tf2pug.me also has potential, and does anyone recall tf2.gg? There are good resources available to us if we set about to properly utilize them[/quote]
TF2pug.me is even more exclusive and won't allow people outside of prem and the top 4 teams of high. Also they use one of TF2Center's servers so there could be potential retribution.
I think we should just start again and make a new site with a proper ELO system for balancing teams like TF2Pickup does rather than base it on TF2Playerrankings or league experience. Introduce a proper ranking system and ladder so people of similar skill levels are paired with each other so that everyone is happy. If such a site were to be welcoming to new players I would gladly get involved in whatever way you see fit.
I have experience in running servers through FTP, using sourcemod admin tools, setting up and running online communities and I also was a former mod at TF2C running the feedback section of the forums. I've also worked as a QA person for a software company.
Your biggest problem is gonna be servers. When TF2C started we had jayserp providing a ton of servers for the website, matches and internals like databases and testing servers. We need to talk to Arie about Serverme.tf because at the moment it's fully integrated with TF2C but I don't know if it'll stay that way or not.
-protothat Marty guy is an admin? He used to be a blatant cheater on tf2lobby.
uhh are you sure you aren't confusing me with someone else?
my steam: steamcommunity.com/id/atmarty
[quote=-proto]that Marty guy is an admin? He used to be a blatant cheater on tf2lobby.[/quote]
uhh are you sure you aren't confusing me with someone else?
my steam: steamcommunity.com/id/atmarty
Can someone tl;dr what's going on for me, I'm working but still want to know what's going on
Thanks
Can someone tl;dr what's going on for me, I'm working but still want to know what's going on
Thanks
Further criticising the complete mess that is TF2center at this point feels both like beating a dead horse and wasting energy, so to stay on the constructive side of this discussion: if people step up and this whole project (which I will from now on refer to as Operation !Rep TF2Center and none of you can stop me goddammit) goes somewhere, if people want I'll gladly help with the replacement however I can where writing is needed, can also throw in some input on design if it helps. If a team gets together to work on a Center replacement, whatever form it may take, let me know.
Further criticising the complete mess that is TF2center at this point feels both like beating a dead horse and wasting energy, so to stay on the constructive side of this discussion: if people step up and this whole project (which I will from now on refer to as Operation !Rep TF2Center and none of you can stop me goddammit) goes somewhere, if people want I'll gladly help with the replacement however I can where writing is needed, can also throw in some input on design if it helps. If a team gets together to work on a Center replacement, whatever form it may take, let me know.
vibhavpAnybody wants to help write a better replacement? Add me, maybe we can flesh out something
PS: Matchmaking's going to come anyway, but it should be a fun experience nevertheless!
If this is a genuine thing, I'd get involved. Not that I can code or do much, but I can fund servers and I also do own the domain for league.tf and that's a pretty nice domain to hold on to.
[quote=vibhavp]Anybody wants to help write a better replacement? Add me, maybe we can flesh out something
PS: Matchmaking's going to come anyway, but it should be a fun experience nevertheless![/quote]
If this is a genuine thing, I'd get involved. Not that I can code or do much, but I can fund servers and I also do own the domain for league.tf and that's a pretty nice domain to hold on to.
i really hope this doesnt bring newer players to tf2pug.me
i really hope this doesnt bring newer players to tf2pug.me
Could you explain real quick how the admin power abuse have influenced the quality of the free product they offer for the user?
I care about admin abuse, but i tought they were improving with the advanced lobbies a little as an experience for the average TF2 gamer.
It's true that the matchmaking system Valve will implement (soon?) will probably shut down a lot of those parallels websites.
Thank you!
Could you explain real quick how the admin power abuse have influenced the quality of the free product they offer for the user?
I care about admin abuse, but i tought they were improving with the advanced lobbies a little as an experience for the average TF2 gamer.
It's true that the matchmaking system Valve will implement (soon?) will probably shut down a lot of those parallels websites.
Thank you!
x3Could you explain real quick how the admin power abuse have influenced the quality of the free product they offer in for the end user?
Thank you!
quality tends to be shitty when you can't use the service
[quote=x3]Could you explain real quick how the admin power abuse have influenced the quality of the free product they offer in for the end user?
Thank you![/quote]
quality tends to be shitty when you can't use the service
all we would really need is a lobby system to last until matchmaking
all we would really need is a lobby system to last until matchmaking
thmpsnall we would really need is a lobby system to last until matchmaking
MM isn't a catch all for people looking to play lobbies tbh. CSGO MM has plenty of problems in it, and our current lobbies probably fall around the DMG/LE level to begin with. There's plenty of demand for cheater free, high quality games even at the GN level of CS, and I doubt it'd be different for TF2. What will change if MM becomes a thing is the reason for tf2c/l/whatev to exist. It will no longer be populated because its the only way to play low level 6s games, but because its better than MM in a way that MM can't be. Banning hackers, community feedback, and new maps are all plenty of reasons to continue the lobby format.
[quote=thmpsn]all we would really need is a lobby system to last until matchmaking[/quote]
MM isn't a catch all for people looking to play lobbies tbh. CSGO MM has plenty of problems in it, and our current lobbies probably fall around the DMG/LE level to begin with. There's plenty of demand for cheater free, high quality games even at the GN level of CS, and I doubt it'd be different for TF2. What will change if MM becomes a thing is the reason for tf2c/l/whatev to exist. It will no longer be populated because its the only way to play low level 6s games, but because its better than MM in a way that MM can't be. Banning hackers, community feedback, and new maps are all plenty of reasons to continue the lobby format.
The issue is that creating such a system creates quite some time, especially a proper one. You have to create the Server Plugin, a Server for the Lobby Handling with Websockets and a proper Frontend. While that is certainly possible it requires quite some time and will be most likely wasted time once the matchmaking is coming. If that woudn't be the case I would certainly say "Hell yes, lets do it", but like that?
The second thing is that I had the image that most people are not really willing to donate. To host such a site you need way more than a 5€ VPS, and a proper dedicated server is starting at 60€+ per month, so the programmer who invested shit loads of time also had to pay for the hosting. And subscriptions are most likely really hated in the TF2 Community after what I have seen in the TF2C Advanced Lobby stuff, tons of comments "Why should I pay for something I get somewhere else for free?".
The issue is that creating such a system creates quite some time, especially a proper one. You have to create the Server Plugin, a Server for the Lobby Handling with Websockets and a proper Frontend. While that is certainly possible it requires quite some time and will be most likely wasted time once the matchmaking is coming. If that woudn't be the case I would certainly say "Hell yes, lets do it", but like that?
The second thing is that I had the image that most people are not really willing to donate. To host such a site you need way more than a 5€ VPS, and a proper dedicated server is starting at 60€+ per month, so the programmer who invested shit loads of time also had to pay for the hosting. And subscriptions are most likely really hated in the TF2 Community after what I have seen in the TF2C Advanced Lobby stuff, tons of comments "Why should I pay for something I get somewhere else for free?".
I heard that TF2Pickup is supposedly expanding to other regions soon, so hopefully that will give the NA scene somewhere other than TF2C to go.
Edit: am I being minus'd because people hate me or because people don't believe me?
I heard that TF2Pickup is supposedly expanding to other regions soon, so hopefully that will give the NA scene somewhere other than TF2C to go.
Edit: am I being minus'd because people hate me or because people don't believe me?