screenshots please?
edit: i cant read

can you even read?

If you are really interested in giving feedback, just download it and load it on a server...
Screenshots (specially in alpha versions) can be very misleading and therefore useless

Quoting a post from the ETF2L thread for people to see.

If you would like some testing, you can submit it to the New-New Map Pugs google form at http://goo.gl/forms/B9qKiqz2VO

Thanks have a great one :)

I like the split-cp for highlander, actually.
But anyway, interesting.

i havent had a chance to test this for balance but i've taken a good look around it from a general map design perspective and there are a few things i want to point out. it seems like you're fairly new to mapping just judging from the issues that i have with the map, so it would behoove you to poke around on tf2maps for a while, there are plenty of tutorials and guides aimed at a newer perspective, and a lot of stuff that you might have not considered yet

there are some pretty glaring issues with the map that it would be good to address before you get too far along into development. the first issue is that the map's features are really incredibly oversized, there are no small rooms, your doors are two or three times the size that they normally would be, the heights of your indoor areas are twice the size that normally should be. essentially every single opening on the map is the size of bigdoor on gully, which is really awful for creating chokepoints. the heights of a lot of your areas is too tall as well, you should really only have a height that you take fall damage from naturally in very rare specific situations. on this map though, if you jump off of the second point you'll take fall damage, if you walk off of the roof next to second you'll take fall damage, if you walk out of the window between second and last you'll take fall damage, if you walk off of the roof of mid you'll take fall damage, etc. again, this is a symptom of your maps features being so oversized and it's really bad for gameplay. just take a minute to consider how many points on each map you can think of where you could theoretically take fall damage without a jump, and the answer is almost always a very small number. If you need help with sizing your map correctly, this is the best place to check http://tf2maps.net/threads/guide-scale-and-your-map.12605/

my second issue from just a general design standpoint is that the map is incredibly simple, each area is essentially a box with 1 or 2 straight hallways connecting to each area. the mid is by far the most interesting point on the map, but even that is essentially just a rectangular box surrounded by another rectangular box. a tip for this is to just go to a normal map and outline the spaces of each point and consider how much strategy that offers, and try to incorporate those kinds of things into your own map

we play-tested it and the map had a nice flow
there were some issues with spawn timers and getting from mid to second was a bit too quick but apart from that it was fun

Well it does make sense that the map is barren and feels very open, he did create the map a week ago. Right now it's just a complete outline and he'd rather have consultation on that before he just starts implementing props and textures.

I'm sorry I don't have anything to give you for criticism, but after watching Sideshow's stream your map does look interesting and has a shit ton of potential, don't get discouraged.

also this oversizing might be intended to, you know, making games less of a spam fest..

New version:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kjv0ur9qsath839/cp_drudgery_a5.bsp?dl=0

Changed cap and spawn times a bit
Added respawn visualisers
Changed cave up – hp added and shortened dramatically
Fixed clipping and jumping off mid fences
Choke lowered
Put a small hp on mid at choke
Textured some stuff, still not sure on the theme

1. Your map isn't using an actual skybox, you've boxed the map. Do not do this. Look up beginner tutorials on how to make actual skyboxes. To see why this is a terrible terrible thing to do, turn on mat_wireframe. You're rendering the whole map at once.
2. You seem not to have Areaportals or any optimization. Once you have added an actual skybox, do this and you will see instant improvements.
3. A little overscaled in some areas.
4. Too many entrances into last.
5. Unseen textures aren't nodrawed. Do this to improve FPS.
6. This map is a mess of doors. Look at 'good' maps, they hardly use doors at all.

Mostly all true I'd say. The reasons for this, I think, is because I never rebuilt the map from it's earliest 64 grid draft. I'm going to be redoing all of the walls and groundwork in the upcoming version, I'll make sure to include optimization, I do actually know how to do this, just didn't think it was necessary for alpha versions, woops :D

Thank you very much for looking!

Hello tftv, with etf2l season ending I have way more time to be working on this once again. I'm going to not list my changes anymore, but try to write a short paragraph so people can tell why I've done it and that way better communicate if I'm stepping in the right direction or not.

In the time off, I've redone the map. The map now probably cut down texture rendering by about half. The skybox has also been done, and area portals also. I'll have to redo all the skyboxing, but for alpha this is fine. I'll have to redo it once I start to decorate the roofs and give the map more personality anyway.

In terms of gameplay, there's been a few scaling changes, such as heightening of choke and lobby. Most importantly the most forward spawn has been moved back a good distance, and it's also now on the other side of the mid, meaning that the fastest way to get back to 2nd with a spawn will put you at height disadvantage. This should make it easier to push out on a failed last push. I've also played with the spawn times, hopefully won't see people on last already after a wipe on mid. It'll still be hard to hold given there won't be time to get to forward position, but it feels less cheap.

These changes should help gameflow a bit more. I have some plans on making the middle and 2nd a little more fun to play on a purely DM based standard, but I want the map flow to work well before I do that. At this point, experimenting with interesting additions takes focus away from that, and also encourages me to rework large sections if it's needed.

-

That said, I'd be really interested to detail some of the reasons on why I made the map the way I have, design choices etc, but I really don't want to be one of those mappers who has something to say about every bit of feedback they get, I'd much rather take it gracefully because I'm honestly thankfully if someone takes the time to open my work. So I guess if you want to know what's happening in my brain, please ask away.

Hello Mould. Played 2 lobby on this map and people really liked it!

There are very few healthpacks tho. Maybe add one in this entrance to mid ?

they are really scarce atm

Also I found it a bit uncomfortable how this window blocks you and you have to jump

cant just walk through it without pressing space

Thanks for the map anyway. Would love to try a new version someday :)

Mould -
I just wanted to let you know that Power Pugs will be playing this map on 'New Map Saturday's' this coming weekend 12/26/2015. The map will be played a couple of times throughout the day within our current rotation and we will be taking time after the map is played for players to come give input regarding the map.

WPJ
Power Pugs

Hi Mould-
Here is the stv and a recording with thoughts and input on the map. We will also post some notes here once I write them up.
STV: http://wikisend.com/download/224566/match-20151226-1302-cp_drudgery_a6_fix.dem
Voice Recording: https://soundcloud.com/meme-friends/drudgery-notes

the pastebin of notes is in the desc. of the recording.
there's really no point in watching the stv past 25 minutes, there were 3 minutes in that time, I really see what you were trying to do with the fast rounds

unfortunately, we stalemated for quite a while after the first 3-4 rounds, and almost managed to run the map time down.

Hello guys, I'm very sorry, like I said I haven't been checking TFTV. I missed these last 2 feedbacks, I will definitely be taking them into account for my next version, if they are still up. I'm really thankful that you took the time to do that and I'm sorry that I didn't see it.
Sage, I considered to clip that window, but given that one of the most useful rollouts is to go through there and then jump up through right, I wanted to keep it as the toughest rollout. I guess I will try it with that next version. About the healthkits for choke, the one in pit forces a medic to go out of position for health, which I think rewards good decision making and allows for timed sacrifices to be very successful. I will make sure to focus my attention on whether flow at that choke point is a problem. Please let me know if you agree, disagree guys, would be great to hear additional voices on this.

Thanks to all 3 of you for playing it, I really appreciate that.

While I've not been updating, there's been a fair few changes, mostly in terms of experimenting with cave and 2nd, but the changes for the most part have been reverted as they weren't great. One of the reasons I haven't been posting updates is that I won't publicly release a version I don't think is any good.
On that note, a10 is out. The main change you’ll notice is the maps been decorated. Other than that, between these versions, there’s been a resizing of lobby and cave. The spawn times and travel times have been played with a lot, won’t list them all but it should make the map flow a bit better and allow for some good moments. Choke has had a height and width increase which should allow teams to get into mid with a bit more breathing room and less claustrophobia.

If you'd like to play the map, the latest version is on serveme.tf and the download can be found on page 1.

Known gameplay issue- pixelwalk on fence outside spawn, strange shadow in cave, unsmooth displacement in pit.

The main downside here is that since I started decorating, the map is unoptimized again. I've had some guys testing the fps, it should still be very playable for the majority of people, but I'm fully aware of the issue and definitely working on it to make sure I don't end up with the coalplant problem. Next version will be focused on polish and FPS numbers.

Played a10 in a lobby with you today. Sniper sightlines are kinda ridiculous on second and last. Definitely needs more cover on those points. I was able to basically see everything so there was no hiding for the enemy team unless they simply backed off to last (if they're on second) or their own spawn (on last)
Mid was sort of fine but you'll need to move some props around or add some fences to block some long sightlines.

Just gonna focus on sniper sightlines for now because I think that's one of the bigger issues this map has. i ran around a bit in the map after the lobby and here's what I found

Mid
http://puu.sh/ockKH/c47f5c1dcf.png sightline to main. Can't really get jumped from the right if you have your team with you because your team sees them coming from a mile away if they try to flank right
http://puu.sh/ockS8/29b1e83852.png sightline to part of main
http://puu.sh/ockXh/497c9a1a12.png sightline to main and right flank
http://puu.sh/ocl0d/ad75e1d4c4.png sightline to left shutter and main. The medic's head sticks out at main
All these sightlines are very easy to rotate between

Second
left sightline
http://puu.sh/oc8mz/d869210196.png ridiculously long sightline when defending if they come from the left
possible fix would be placing a fence on the elevated terrain just in front of where I'm standing and extending the walls at the health/ammo inward a bit more to break the sightline

sightlines to/from main
defending
http://puu.sh/oc8sq/88134ba7a3.png same spot where the long sightline is can also watch main
http://puu.sh/oc8vO/c9c416b376.png basically the same thing but you get some cover from the bridge
http://puu.sh/oc8u0/cfd2835967.png (same as the previous one but you can stand on the edge of the concrete block for an easy bodyshot. kinda useless because the sightline on the left does the same thing. You just see them a splitsecond earlier if they come around the corner. Mostly something to keep in mind if you decide to move things around. This sightline might remain viable if you don't take it into account. Changing the prop I'm standing on to where you can't stand on it as sniper is an easy solution)
http://puu.sh/ocjh7/8dad90ce23.png right shutter
As you can see that one spot can watch both left and main so that definitely needs some work. You're also very close to your team who will hold behind bridge on any of these sightlines so there's no way to get jumped without at least trading
This also means the only safe route to second if you want to avoid the sniper would be through cave. But you'd have the lower ground and you'd get spammed by the demo/soldiers (perhaps changing cave to have a second exit with higher ground could help with this because spam when going cave will also be an issue without a sniper watching. I don't see cave as a viable way to push to second if the demo is alive)

Perhaps raise the bridge and make it wider so you can't see heads when peaking behind it. mid point is the right height to where you at least need to be standing on the slope to mid to see people at main (not on slope http://puu.sh/ocl97/9f6e8921cc.png on slope http://puu.sh/ockXh/497c9a1a12.png )

attacking
http://puu.sh/ocjBM/8f5920d4ea.png Can see the medic's head sticking out above the point, can basically snipe anything in this area. Only way to avoid it is hiding at health pack on the right or in lobby

Last
right shutter
http://puu.sh/oc5G1/40245d4903.png you can still shoot through the top parts of the blocks where I'm aiming at
http://puu.sh/oc5PO/0cd0fc56e0.png The blocks are also smaller than a player so you can still headshot people behind them
http://puu.sh/oc59t/7e85980aac.png You can peak almost everything on last from the right
Only real hiding spot is the spawn, the blindspot to the left maybe but you'll get spammed there, or behind the right wall on the point but you're just going to be stuck there and get spammed. Everything in lobby has high ground so they just spam down on you if you are standing on the point
Best solution is changing the concrete blocks blocking right shutter vision to a different prop (snakewater last truck?) or placing another block on top of the one I was aiming at in the screenshots

lower lobby shutter
http://puu.sh/oc7rN/29a392b49d.png Not sure about this one. Seems easier to spam if a sniper tries to peak from here. But the shutter opens from quite far away. I'm assuming this can be adjusted but I have no experience with mapping. This is about the maximum distance I was able to open it by myself to get a peak on whatever is on the right.
It opening from quite far away also means a sticky trap there is kind of useless because it gets spotted before you get in close range to the trap. A 300 hp soldier will rarely be killed by a trap there. They'd spot it before they'd get close enough to where the trap can kill them
(I also went back to right shutter. Also has a far distance from where you can open shutter. less of an issue here though. Doesn't seem like a place where you'd put stickies on the ground http://puu.sh/oc81C/2e2c3d9f3f.png )

left lobby window
Seems fine. Easy to spam from left spawn shutter, people can hide by sitting close to right spawn shutter or underneath the window where the sniper peaks. Something providing additional cover for the defenders wouldn't hurt though because having to hide underneath the window on the ground just gets you stuck there and everyone in lobby can spam you from high ground. Also I personally don't think having to hide in spawn should be one of the only viable ways to not peak a sniper.

upper lobby main
http://puu.sh/oc6ZM/b0c9cd2098.png standing as close to the window as possible to show the sightlines you can get
http://puu.sh/oc7eS/3d6e4f1c0d.png you can stand quite far back to minimize spam and if you just move around at the right distances you can peak basically everything from the first pic

General
I felt like the attacking team was too favored on last. Also felt that way on second but we were rolling the other team so there were never stalemates on second. So only going to talk about last.

On last the attacking team always has high ground in lobby. But the defending team has to defend a capture point on lower ground that is easily spammed. Most of last is lower ground that can be spammed from higher ground in lobby. Shoot a couple of rockets to get some stickies off the point, send in a scout, scout dies but people have to jump on the point to defend it and you just spam some rockets on the point for free damage. 2 or 3 defending people are standing on the point, uber in and get more free damage on them
Feels like the scouts can't really do much if they're defending, if they try to snipe against an attacking sniper there's 4 possible sightlines they can get peaked from and the only viable places to snipe from when defending are the 2 shutter doors so you're pretty easy to predict.
The roamer's most viable spot seems to be sitting in right shutter door and spamming rockets until something happens. You can hide in the corner in front of your right shutter and get a rocket on something when they come in with the uber by being behind them. That seems to be about it

Perhaps last point needs some higher elevation and the elevation in upper lobby needs to be lowered slightly? Maybe last point + spawn also need to be moved back a bit because the distance for the attacking team to travel to get to last is quite small. Also means it's quite easy to spam the point
Moving the point back and placing some props and elevation inbetween the point and lobby would give both the defending and attacking scouts some breathing room

I'll try to keep an eye on updates and I'll probably play some more drudgery if I see a lobby is up :)

Thank you very much for the feedback. For the most part I'd like to keep sniping to choke from both ends open- I'll make sure I add some more cover to cave especially though. This should help teams pushing into 2nd get around sniper. As for 2nd itself, widening the point is definitely going to happen- I can afford to add some crates to block vision if I do that, without cramping the point. This should also make 2nd a bit more dynamic for scouts. Very good idea.

For mid, I do think that if the enemy team comes out of cave they've got a pretty good chance. It's important to remember that in cases like this, if the enemy team can get close and have a somewhat good uber, they have the advantage if no picks were given. It's kind of like pushing gullywash mid against a sniper, except in that case it's worse because the enemy team can get out super fast and still guarantee a force since you're coming from big door. I'll have to monitor this further. What will probably happen is that I'll bring cave a bit closer to the enemy side, which will give attackers a better uber, if they choose to push there. I'll add some cover for the shutter push also, that's certain, which will also semi block sightlines from shutter to choke. This will prevent a 'free escape' for the sniper, improving uber situations for attackers. It can't hurt to raise mid point a little too.

As for last, it's designed to be very easy to attack given that the enemy team doesn't forward hold. I don't really mind the attacking sniper seeing a large amount from right- that's a price you pay for losing control of window room. In this case, you will most likely lose last anyway, window room is the strongest defensive position. Compare it to snakewater- if you lost the hut, then a sniper can get full vision there without really being contested. Similarly, once you lost the hut, it's likely that you won't hold the point.
If you do have lobby, the sightlines are pretty null. Even when you lose lobby, you still want to be holding on the front rafters, not above point, because if you go far back, you let the other team in for free. It just happens to be the case that holding in the optimal position makes sniper a lot weaker. Unfortunately, when people in TF2C play the map for the first time, there's little chance that the 'best' hold will be discovered in a 12 minute game. Potentially sniper might see an issue, but for now, I don't think it'd be outlandish to leave last as it is for now.

Thank you for the great feedback, and of course for playing the map. Lots of love <3

Hey, I am working on this again, since I am at uni again and haven't got loads to do right now. Plus season started and I'm motivated to try to make something good. I've been working a few weeks on new version. Here is a writeup of main changes.

a11 writeup

2nd- Reduced severity of height advantage on point
removed easy access to balcony
added clutter to point (this allows access to balc, but not as a general route, blocks sight)
added bonus width to point (ground area remains similar)
added prop between choke and pit
added more consistent prop route from pit (should allow a scout through in pit to come behind choke quickly)

This should reduce the power of holding on point. Combo classes now are slower up to balcony which should mean pushing through cave becomes more viable, before teams could hold close to choke and be in the better holding spot by the time the push happened. These changes should allow for a better rock paper scissors game to go on and generally be better for attackers, who can capitalise on unexpected pushes far better, and punishes out of position combo players. 

In terms of attacking, there's a few changes. The biggest change to main is that scouts can no longer follow up as easily as they're much more predictable getting up now, as they have to hop on a box first, which can give a free rocket if it's expected. The prop near choke should nerf spam from far back and give medics a bit of a safe space, while also nerfing choke to pit pushes, which I figured would be really strong slow pushes if balcony sees more play. 
Also, the clutter on point gives better vis blocking on lower, which will hopefully mean aggro from lower, whether it be sac(k) plays or uber vs no uber pushes have a higher success rate. 
Finally, I tightened choke at the top of cave, due to the fact that cave pushes are generally scout ubers and the ubers were coming out really late. This should tone down the effectiveness a slight amount by nudging the medics closer to ubering earlier.

ps- I've changed the sightlines in cave - it's such now that a surprise sniper can get a balcony pick, but a called sniper can be avoided simply by hugging the wall a bit. Snipers on the top of cave can peak, but this is a very aggressive angle, someone should be holding there. The important thing is that you can't snipe freely from the bottom of cave now, which was an oversight of shortening the cave route. 

Please let me know what you think about these changes :)

I focused mainly on 2nd, but here's some more mid changes changes:
Raised mid a bit so that it blocks a sightline from choke to choke
Extended cave slightly further toward middle, should allow a better uber for cave vs sniper pushes.
-If snipers defending mid continues to be a problem, I'll be changing the huts to block sightlines, for now these changes are enough to test. 

Misc:
By popular demand, gravel has been clipped. Sorry for not doing it earlier. (other clipping too)
Map is no longer having an identity crisis
Replaced ramps with stairs (dw they're clipped, no splashbugs and rampslidable)
I've also added general signposting. This should definitely help if you want to run a tf2c/tf2s/dblmix/pickup or whatever. 
General improvements in polish and detail
We have sound now - Should no longer do that gullywash demo bug as there are soundscapes now. You got your bird noises near the trees and rustling, your running water sounds, your wind noises in tunnels and your machinery inside the lobbies.
Clipped a couple of hiding places. 
FPS is slightly better - please report if you're seeing FPS problems, I'm still not done with the optimization but it'll help me gauge how urgent it is

I'm right now doing full compile, but if you happen to have played a game and remembered I can find useful, now is a great time to bring it up, ty x

Just thought I would update, dl link and screens are there now :)

textures look so nice! i wish i wasnt blocked from tf2center to try it out (even tho i dont have adblock)
uploaded to serveme

thank you- If it helps, I have tried on firefox instead of chrome and its worked for me, I can make lobbies again.

A new version, a12 is coming out, here is the changes

This version I mostly looked at changing mid up. Mid has been a really polarizing topic generally. A lot of people thought it was decent, and a handful thought it was terrible. I knew for a long time that the mid could do with improvements but frankly there were more pressing things to test.

From my earliest testing I already knew that the flow of mid was 'alright'. Teams choose a side and the team that controls the high point better generally wins. I think the mid has the potential to be very fun, it has a very centralized fighting area for soldiers- I don't think any other map mid acts so heavily as a "spire" - any high ground which can't be easily dominated by scouts is going to be a fun area for soldiers to fight on. Unrelated, I think any map that rewards going forward for demos is more fun for them. Scouts just have fun if they can dm things. Medics must be able to survive the mid to find it rewarding. 

So now for the problems of the mid. 

Soldier- Although the tower does centralize the positioning of the soldiers, there is a lack of vision on the top which turns dm fights into just peeking the corner and shooting the other side. It's passive and not very exciting, and punishes people for walking forward and taking control correctly. 

Demo/medic- The lack of HP on the mids prevents demos from walking anywhere that isn't just onto the point. This means if your soldiers aren't winning up top the demo doesn't really have that many options to do much but launch stickies up top. This is a fine strategy but a few more options for pushing are needed. For medics there's just too few health packs. A bomb can force the team out just by hitting 100. 

so-
reworked mid structure:
-building isn't a gpit ripoff
-more vision up top
-flattened roof
-lowered windows
-moved cave health pack a bit closer to structure and towards team control
-changed to medium
-added prop cue, should stop players trying to jump to the top of the structure on mid

Result-
The vision increase up top prevents hiding behind walls and peeking. You can hide there, but you can just fire rockets next to the wall to cause damage. This should make the 'spire fight' more dm based and far less passive. The flatter roof just makes scout a bit less good up there, while still able to deny jumps an already present soldier has a much better chance. 
On the scouts side though, the lower window means that scouts can jump up there without the winger. Means scouts will be surprising people more often, rotating faster and generally it should just feel a lot more fluid.
The forward health pack gives the aggressive team a bit more steam. It's also in front of the enemy hut and where the enemy medic is going to be taking health, so the option to lock them out is there now, just gives meds and demos the flexibility to do more. The tradeoff of height VS health comes into play, it should be interesting. Cave rollout improves aswell, which wasn't being used at all. 

I've also reworked the hut into something more reasonable. The hut before was just killing space and really didn't contribute anything to the mid at all. Now you can walk on it as all classes, which should make the mid feel a bit more spacious. This I feel is okay since the lower ground players will be playing with a medium health pack. It also acts as a great place to hold far back as a passive force mid while you have disadvantage, which is definitely something that was missing from the mid. 

Misc-
Fixed clipping on stairs (was using wrong clip texture smh!!) 
Giant arrows became non-solid
Fixed up a very thick spawn wall which felt strange
Fixed up the cave to be a bit more friendly to walk on and also fixed an infinite stuck point
Tweaked spawn times, last pushes and contests should flow a little better

Please let me know what you think! As always if you have any last minute suggestions, feel free to give them! newest screens and dl will be here soon enough, I'm compiling over night. I'm hoping this will be the final alpha :)

Next version is out. It has an slight displacement gap in the cave, sorry

screens of the changed mid building are up, and the map is now on serveme if you want to run tf2c or mix

thanks x

Next version is currently compiling. I made some really bad mistakes on the last version. (such as some reverted 'thick' walls accidentally and even unstickable mid, along with more clipping badness etc)

This next version should fix everything I think I broke, as well as a slight adjustment to choke height. I hope that last version doesn't dissuade people from testing it, I know it was bad, I was rushing the version and didn't do enough testing. Sorry for garbage release.

Compile is done, new version is out. This should be the last alpha.

Hello I've just put the map on the workshop, link is in the OP and here.
If you like the map feel free to give it a up rating. Maybe one day it'll get put in the matchmaking rotation, after all it's at least better than badwater for 6s!

I'm in dire need of more feedback please, as far as it goes for me I've really gleaned all I can from unorganised tf2centers. I'm really sad that I don't have any update to give out even though it's been almost 3 weeks now since any last version.

So what I'm planning on doing is selling/raffling off my unusual and starting a small cup. Not checked how much it's worth nowadays but at one point it was worth at least 500$ so I think I could get some decent teams to play in it. It would probably be EU though as I don't know any NA people.

Love this map so far. Has a unique style, and I think if some kinks are worked out, it will be great to play. However, there are some issues:

You can stand on this section of the fence, but no other parts:
http://imgur.com/pQhabKv
This on RED side:
http://imgur.com/X4k5QGD
I find it questionable for there not to be a barrier here and here to place stickies, but more of a nitpick:
http://imgur.com/3koPYK5
http://imgur.com/GliSa6E
Some of these power things have collision, yet some don't:
http://imgur.com/JIdZEj8
http://imgur.com/XsXyuAJ
And I don't know if this was intended, but you are able to stand on this portion of the rock wall, and on the arrow sign:
http://imgur.com/t0Xvhl6
http://imgur.com/UyUVihi
Keep up the great work my dude. :)

Hi there, thank you, first 2 and last 4 should be fixed next version.

As for the stickies there in 3rd/4th, imo its normal that the stickies can go into gaps. Surely if they couldn't that would be a much worse sticky trap? Will ask for more opinions

Ty :)