There's a scarcity of resources around the point. The team holding the point is forced to move around in order to pick up health packs or ammo, meaning the high ground advantage of the point is weighted against the lack of health/ammo pickups. Don't know if I'd call that the special sauce that makes Viaduct great but it's something I appreciate.

There's also more levels of verticality and open space in Via than most other koth maps.

koth is the easiest game mode to make maps for but at the same time it seems to get very little attention from map makers.

in my xp koth maps, like koth games, tend to have less going on but smaller flaws are a lot more noticeable

5cp is easier to start and easier to get playtested for a lot of reasons

I think it doesn't help that the one good KOTH map in 6s, viaduct pro (or product or w/e) is a map heavily biased in favor of scouts, and because there's no other KOTH maps to compare, it's viewed as that one gamemode that the best class in the game is even better at

you can't do what ppl did when making maps like sunshine and process, methinks. 5CP had a whole bunch of already well-established concepts to carve a niche into, whereas trying that with the current state of KOTH is like trying to make a 5CP map using only granary pro for layout inspiration

viaduct is the only one with a hill

KOTH maps tent to have crazy Sniper sightlines by their nature and to nerf them, you create bigger problems. Even on Viaduct a good Sniper can be annoying af.

Viaduct stands out because the point is actually a good defensive position. Most other koth maps it seems, standing on the point leaves you completely exposed. The forward hold is also a pretty unique feature. It's viable to do, but not completely overpowered.

I think to replicate the success of viaduct you have to emulate it almost entirely. 3 entrances into the "mid" allow teams to forward hold, but don't make it completely unbreakable. The buffer zone in between the 3 entrances and the point allow attacking teams to organize their push without getting spammed to death. And making the point a good place to hold means that it generally it isn't a good play to let the attacking team get on the point and then collapsing on them (like ashville).

Also I hate koth maps with paths that go underneath the point, that just seems like a lazy attempt to make a flank route.

I'd love to see a koth map that was shit for scouts and totally different to via. It would add more variety into the map pool. It's bothered me for a long time that we almost never see situations like in CSGO where teams have maps they can beat other teams on. Teams in TF2 either beat you on every map or none, in general (with via being a notable exception at times).

it's not possible to make a bad scout map.

5 points

I don't feel like that's possible on tf2. CS has way more strategy involved in the varying maps, teams have to remember pre aim spots, varying smokes vs various places to hold. And it's also way more punishing to people that go out of position or are read.

TF2 is just extremely basic in this sense. The same mode of pushing works for most maps, and default pushing done properly will take you to high div, even prem. You can play every map in almost the same way, and it's extremely easy theory. Viaduct is the only one that uses a different general strategy and it also happens to be the one that everyone isn't good at - it has something to do with sniping, but for the most part I feel like it's just because it's KOTH. Turbine was also one where teams had different degrees of success.

The answer might be using different modes, but at the moment, if I was going to make a 6v6 map, and it wasn't 5cp, I'd probably be laughed at, and nobody would play it. Nobody wants to put in hundreds of hours of mapping for no real prospects.

Default granary is a bad scout map, all you need are tight choke points and confined areas. Part of the reason people think scout is so OP is because the chokey maps aren't fun so we don't play them.

I thought koth_granary held a lot of promise. Too bad that never was finished.

I think a tunnel under the point would be interesting if it didn't dip far below a flat point. It'd be nicer if it were a tunnel through a raised point.

The entrance to the tunnel being right next to the point also didn't help Ashville.

what if scout just gets nerfed?

How would you nerf Scout?

personally i'd just increase the spread or falloff - make midranging worse

Competitive map makers maybe, but Koth_ is the most popular mode to make levels for. I think the reason why people don't wanna make Koth_ maps for competitive is
#1. There is much higher demand for 5cp_ maps
#2. It's much easier to make unique layouts for 5cp than it is for koth, there is a reason why most koth maps use the Viaduct formula, because maps that stray from it (Nucleus, Sawmill, Harvest) are usually unsuitable for competitive play, as their layouts require spawns while become easily campable, or points which are hard to retake.
#3. It takes too much experimentation to test each and every idea that a designer might have to make a new layout. And we all know that you guys don't wanna test in-dev dev texture maps.

cp_dustbowl

I'm interested to see any map, 5cp or koth that makes certain areas on mids and 2nd point only accessible to demomen and soldiers. It would be interesting to see how you can implement those in a balanced way without making them completely useless.

Gravelpit B Roof was pretty nice.

The devs even explain the commentary how they tackled balancing B roof, the main thing being that there are no resources on the roof and it takes health away to get up there, so you're likely to be lower hp on the roof and you have to come down for health and ammo.

Even though im probably the only person who thinks this, regular granary isnt even that bad for scouts tbh

i don't think there will be another "good" koth map at least not for a while, people just don't like the game mode outside of match play

Okay, here's a point of view that I have concerning viaduct/product. Viaduct is the only longstanding koth map that has been played in 6s, (with the next most played koth being ashville, which is great but nowhere near viaduct in terms of play time). I think one of the main ways the competitive community evaluates the quality of a map often boils down to "does it fit the dominant comp meta?". The situation 6s is facing with koth, is that the koth meta was built almost entirely around that map, and no map will fit that meta better than viaduct. The way I see it as a map maker is that 6s is too deeply ingrained in viaduct to play something that would stray away from its restraining formula. It's the "It's not badlands" phenomenon, only far worst when applied to koth.

Edit: More to the point, on the topic of making a good koth. I think it's difficult for players to identify what they like or why. make something special that feels interesting to you, and people will know if they like it or not when they see it.

http://imgur.com/vDRVdTe

scout can't reload while jumping