Updating cp_snakewater

#1

chojje

cp_snakewater

0 Frags – +

Hey everyone,

I'm chojje, the author of cp_snakewater. I was approached recently by Fubar about updating Snake, and when discussing it with Valve they thought it would be a good time to do so two years after its release.

Specifically, Fubar brought up a problematic sentry spot which rendered the final point stale in Highlander. I will try to resolve this problem, and do a complete overhaul of the map where I take any feedback from the two last years into account.

So my question for the competitive community right now is the state of the map in both the 6s and Highlander scene.

* Is there any particular area which is problematic/not fun?
* Are there any glitches that have been abused in competitive play?
* What is the general opinion on Snakewater in the various formats?

I'm really glad to see the map still being played competitively, and I'll be really happy to take any feedback into consideration when updating the map! If anybody wants to playtest the upcoming versions, please send me a PM and I'd love to join in or survey the playtesting.

Thanks for your assistance,
chojje

Hey everyone,

I'm chojje, the author of cp_snakewater. I was approached recently by Fubar about updating Snake, and when discussing it with Valve they thought it would be a good time to do so two years after its release.

Specifically, Fubar brought up a problematic sentry spot which rendered the final point stale in Highlander. I will try to resolve this problem, and do a complete overhaul of the map where I take any feedback from the two last years into account.

So my question for the competitive community right now is the state of the map in both the 6s and Highlander scene.

* Is there any particular area which is problematic/not fun?
* Are there any glitches that have been abused in competitive play?
* What is the general opinion on Snakewater in the various formats?

I'm really glad to see the map still being played competitively, and I'll be really happy to take any feedback into consideration when updating the map! If anybody wants to playtest the upcoming versions, please send me a PM and I'd love to join in or survey the playtesting.

Thanks for your assistance,
chojje

#2

wrecheddddd

127 Frags – +

please for the love of god fix the forward spawns (specifically at mid) so players spawn facing the door

#3

Sideshow

27 Frags – +

Cool that you're planning a fairly large update. Will this get to be playtested before being made official? Hope so!

The biggest issues for me watching and playing snakewater: the mid is incredibly one-dimensional, and the last point can be tough to push.

More so than any other map, snakewater's mids leave nothing to the team in terms of strategy. You either bomb over aggressively or try to spam the other team out whilst contesting the point / high ground. I can't see a great way of altering this without changing the mid a lot, but it is a problem imo.

The last point frequently requires a sniper to be able to push it, either for picks or to get entry on the left (from attacker pov) and allow the sniper to try and take shots during a push. If you create another chokey room before you reach the spawn doors (kinda like how gully has a "room" outside the spawn) this will stop the defending team being able to rotate into spawn so easily and will also give them effectively less room on last to manoeuvre. This may end up helping uber trades from shutter, idk. Something is worth a try on last to help uber v uber not being a stalemate though.

Cool that you're planning a fairly large update. Will this get to be playtested before being made official? Hope so!

The biggest issues for me watching and playing snakewater: the mid is incredibly one-dimensional, and the last point can be tough to push.

More so than any other map, snakewater's mids leave nothing to the team in terms of strategy. You either bomb over aggressively or try to spam the other team out whilst contesting the point / high ground. I can't see a great way of altering this without changing the mid a lot, but it is a problem imo.

The last point frequently requires a sniper to be able to push it, either for picks or to get entry on the left (from attacker pov) and allow the sniper to try and take shots during a push. If you create another chokey room before you reach the spawn doors (kinda like how gully has a "room" outside the spawn) this will stop the defending team being able to rotate into spawn so easily and will also give them effectively less room on last to manoeuvre. This may end up helping uber trades from shutter, idk. Something is worth a try on last to help uber v uber not being a stalemate though.

#4

Lunacide

20 Frags – +

I feel like the sightline through the fence from the back of 2nd to lower is a bit too strong. Its incredibly easy to bodyshot a medic through there.

#5

Twiggy

5 Frags – +

Hey, here are my opinions, from a 6s(/pub player) :)

* Is there any particular area which is problematic/not fun?
IMO the last point/lobby has some stalemates issues. Defending last is easy while pushing it is hard (cuz of good sentry spots, sniper sightlines, entering far away from the defenders), but on the same time holding second is easy and pushing out of it is hard. So if either team decides to park the bus they automatically have an advantage for doing so, which is against fast gameplay.
I think this is due to the fact that holding the lobby is not good for defenders because you eat lots of spam and there is no immediate health packs available.
So ultimately it's up to you : you can change the lobby/last to make it attack favoured, or you can change the lobby to make it so that a defending team can forward hold it/push out more easily. But keeping it like it is a bit stale.

* Are there any glitches that have been abused in competitive play?
On grass on 2nd, there is rocks where you can put stickies into;
On the last shutter door, you can hide stickies on the cylinder thing above the door and stickies cannot be seen. It depends if you consider these a glitch or not.

* What is the general opinion on Snakewater in the various formats?
I like it! It's wide enough for pubs, straightforward to understand in 6s, promotes aggressive midfights as well as defensive play on last!

Hey, here are my opinions, from a 6s(/pub player) :)

* Is there any particular area which is problematic/not fun?
IMO the last point/lobby has some stalemates issues. Defending last is easy while pushing it is hard (cuz of good sentry spots, sniper sightlines, entering far away from the defenders), but on the same time holding second is easy and pushing out of it is hard. So if either team decides to park the bus they automatically have an advantage for doing so, which is against fast gameplay.
I think this is due to the fact that holding the lobby is not good for defenders because you eat lots of spam and there is no immediate health packs available.
So ultimately it's up to you : you can change the lobby/last to make it attack favoured, or you can change the lobby to make it so that a defending team can forward hold it/push out more easily. But keeping it like it is a bit stale.

* Are there any glitches that have been abused in competitive play?
On grass on 2nd, there is rocks where you can put stickies into;
On the last shutter door, you can hide stickies on the cylinder thing above the door and stickies cannot be seen. It depends if you consider these a glitch or not.

* What is the general opinion on Snakewater in the various formats?
I like it! It's wide enough for pubs, straightforward to understand in 6s, promotes aggressive midfights as well as defensive play on last!

#6

Bilbert

26 Frags – +

Snakewater is one of my favorite competitive maps. Very fun to play. The only issue I have ever had on it is the eaves of the shacks on mid. They overhang a little bit, which sometimes catches Scouts and Soldiers when they try to jump.

Edit: Screenshots of the eaves I'm talking about.
http://imgur.com/a/5cJhm

There are also eaves on the roofs around mid that others were talking about later in this thread:
http://i.imgur.com/OmET4jI.jpg
I've never had a problem with those, but I can see how they would be annoying.

Snakewater is one of my favorite competitive maps. Very fun to play. The only issue I have ever had on it is the eaves of the shacks on mid. They overhang a little bit, which sometimes catches Scouts and Soldiers when they try to jump.

Edit: Screenshots of the eaves I'm talking about.
http://imgur.com/a/5cJhm

There are also eaves on the roofs around mid that others were talking about later in this thread:
http://i.imgur.com/OmET4jI.jpg
I've never had a problem with those, but I can see how they would be annoying.

#7

wrecheddddd

-4 Frags – +

LunacideI feel like the sightline through the fence from the back of 2nd to lower is a bit too strong. Its incredibly easy to bodyshot a medic through there.

honestly i really didnt like snakewater at first but it has grown on me and i wouldn't want anything drastically changed, but i do agree with the sightline from that dropdown patio area overlooking yard/grass. it's almost like it was kept as an after-thought after removing the dropdown and should be removed imo. http://puu.sh/n31ET/4de5bcdc0f.jpg

[quote=Lunacide]I feel like the sightline through the fence from the back of 2nd to lower is a bit too strong. Its incredibly easy to bodyshot a medic through there.[/quote]

honestly i really didnt like snakewater at first but it has grown on me and i wouldn't want anything drastically changed, but i do agree with the sightline from that dropdown patio area overlooking yard/grass. it's almost like it was kept as an after-thought after removing the dropdown and should be removed imo. http://puu.sh/n31ET/4de5bcdc0f.jpg

#8

Manky

16 Frags – +

Does that mean we could potentially see other official maps reworked, such as stock granary and stock viaduct?

#9

lucrative

23 Frags – +

seems like last is way too easy to defend nowadays, I watched almost every game of IM and Invite on snakewater just a few weeks ago and seems like EVERY team struggled to push last, even with really solid advantages, It most definitely needs some tweaking for 6s in that respect. apart from some small bugs im sure exist, I think everything else is fine for 6s play, not sure about highlander.

#10

fnm

-14 Frags – +

I really liked the old drop down that existed connecting 2nd to last- it was a cool part of the map.

#11

Fox

25 Frags – +

imo the only thing that should be touched is last if anything
i feel like drastic changes to middle and second would just ruin the map

#12

Dagger

cp_granary_pro

20 Frags – +

the pillar in the saw rooms are not mirrored

#13

tatuwah

8 Frags – +

Change the railing on last to anything else

#14

brody

8 Frags – +

from my low level exp its really boring sitting in lobby without any spam angles, and so far separated from the enemy team

similar to granary last but gran last is easier to push and less risky to sack into

from my low level exp its really boring sitting in lobby without any spam angles, and so far separated from the enemy team

similar to granary last but gran last is easier to push and less risky to sack into

#15

Chriz_Tah_Fah

22 Frags – +

The wall with the railing at last (the side without the shutter door) catches a lot of splash damage. If it could be made one solid wall or if the railing at the top was just removed it would probably be for the best. If you hit the railing with a rocket or a sticky there is no guarantee that you will hit someone standing on the railing, and you will almost never hit someone on the other side. Generally objects that catch splash in a way that doesn't really make sense are just annoying in general.

#16

bearodactyl

2 Frags – +

It might be a good idea to remove the ability to stand on the inside of the doorframe to saw and the little ledge in the sky above battlements. Neither are really used consistently but seem unintentional, especially given that the pillars in saw had their clipping removed.

#17

kaidus

45 Frags – +

Snake works as the type of map it is. It has a one dimensional mid and no flank (2 chokes that the combo can rotate between doesn't make the other one a true flank), but it kind of works after years of teams getting used to it. If you want to fix these problems you'd be better served making a brand new map, as it would require ripping out huge chunks and completely remaking them.

Don't pin the "kaidus hates snake" thing on me as that's not been the case for almost 2 years. I think this style of map is inferior to something like badlands, but snakewater does this style better than anything else and it's nice to have the variety. Fix any bugs and leave the core gameplay as it is.

Edit: One thing I wish was changed is the old dropdown room (that sticks out of the wall onto cp2 balc) that stops you from jumping from that area. It's annoying and I wouldn't mind seeing it pulled back into a flat wall.

Snake works as the type of map it is. It has a one dimensional mid and no flank (2 chokes that the combo can rotate between doesn't make the other one a true flank), but it kind of works after years of teams getting used to it. If you want to fix these problems you'd be better served making a brand new map, as it would require ripping out huge chunks and completely remaking them.

Don't pin the "kaidus hates snake" thing on me as that's not been the case for almost 2 years. I think this style of map is inferior to something like badlands, but snakewater does this style better than anything else and it's nice to have the variety. Fix any bugs and leave the core gameplay as it is.

Edit: One thing I wish was changed is the old dropdown room (that sticks out of the wall onto cp2 balc) that stops you from jumping from that area. It's annoying and I wouldn't mind seeing it pulled back into a flat wall.

#18

Benroads

75 Frags – +

http://puu.sh/n37Bn/0df61f4617.jpg

I think you should have the fence line up better with the wall here or clip it over, currently it just creates a little weird pocket that you can get caught on if you get bounced near spawn.

http://puu.sh/n37KS/e087d1d2b4.jpg

Point is kind of a nightmare clipping wise, you can get stuck on just about every single part of it and leads to a lot of frustration in my experience

http://puu.sh/n37V8/1a74cd0e1e.jpg

These props are pretty annoying since basically the only thing they can really do is block players movement or projectiles. I think moving these outside the map or making them nonsolid would make this area a bit nicer.

http://puu.sh/n384x/6bbe4bd55f.jpg

Clip over or make nonsolid please

http://puu.sh/n38eq/066d05c52c.jpg

Would suggest just making these lights nonsolid so you can avoid having the silly clip brush above them that is super awkward

http://puu.sh/n38jH/de339e247d.jpg

Adding some little clipping brushes around the edges of these boxes would be nice

http://puu.sh/n38xI/c0e7f4d5d2.jpg

The little door edge being solid is probably one of the most annoying parts of the map imo, tons of areas around the level that you can get caught on these and there is no reason for them to be solid.

http://puu.sh/n38Dv/9d288d963e.jpg

Another frustrating thing is having solid props on the ceiling that you can get grabbed on when jumping around. Would suggest removing solidity from ALL ceiling props.

http://puu.sh/n38II/e4f7a5961b.jpg

Random clip brush sticking through the ceiling

http://puu.sh/n38Qx/e3ec22779c.jpg

This spam angle only exists on red side, I really like it and think you should make it the same on blue side. Currently on blue there's just a little concrete wall blocking it off next to the ammo pack.

http://puu.sh/n38Yj/9bdc986150.jpg

Why only clip one side :( Also that little flat area next to the ramp is pretty awkward and I don't think it'd be a huge deal if it was removed since you can do most of the spam just on the ramp itself and not be stuck in this little awkward area.

http://puu.sh/n39eD/ed45cb85e9.jpg

Redoing a bunch of the clipping around this door would be nice, you can get stuck between the two brushes if you're standing on the tires in the corner.

http://puu.sh/n3b3m/d0f66c68e9.jpg

for what purpose

http://puu.sh/n39lh/3d0634e068.jpg

Neither of the clip brushes above the doors actually work, I would suggest just making the door prop nonsolid so you don't have to deal with that.

http://puu.sh/n39qQ/8b6796797a.jpg

clip please

http://puu.sh/n39tI/f0ca3ec1eb.jpg

Same stuff here, also the really annoying roof clipping sucks but I will talk about that later.

http://puu.sh/n39ys/1b5fa747f3.jpg

Should clip the edges on both sides. Also probably should just put some stuff under that ramp because it serves no real purpose.

http://puu.sh/n39H4/027a0f77d2.jpg

The clip brush above these boxes doesn't really seem to serve a purpose

http://puu.sh/n39Rd/6f36c8b202.jpg

Not sure why the clipping extends this far over the roof, also making the lights nonsolid here would be super nice and let you can one of those weird clipping brushes.

http://puu.sh/n3a4c/e081006e59.jpg

You can catch your head here a lot if you're coming up out of lower and somewhat hugging the wall, I would suggest lowering the displacement a bit here so this does not happen.

http://puu.sh/n3a83/b04b453fec.jpg

Should clip over this wall

http://puu.sh/n3ad3/7b4f539f5b.jpg

I think you should either make all of those beams on the ceiling non solid or clip over the extra area that they protrude so you cannot get stuck on them.

http://puu.sh/n3al1/72d42b5e47.jpg

Small clip brush here would be nice, same with a bunch of the other props in the lower area leading to second

http://puu.sh/n3axI/6bce25cbc8.jpg

Basically all of saw needs a clipping pass since there is a whole lot of weird shit going on in here. The little bars that are just above door height are only clipped on the top side and there is a huge gap in the clipping at the top of the ceiling. Also I would like a return of the little metal bands that you could hide on similar to granary.

http://puu.sh/n3aPe/aa35fcfaa6.jpg

This is a thing that is probably only going to bother me but I still think it's pretty sloppy looking and could cause issues in some weird situations. Either way if you're going to be cleaning up a bunch of other stuff redoing the clipping above the doors would be nice.

http://puu.sh/n3bb0/fa49cb59e7.jpg

This is honestly the reason I even went and made the post. The way that you've clipped off basically every roof on the map is super annoying. I think that you really should consider swapping to the pro viaduct way of clipping off roofs. Having the actual building top clipped over but the little decorative lip be non solid. This would make a lot of the areas on the map a lot nicer as soldier as currently most of the stuff that you would want to jump off of has a little brush on the top that kinda fucks your jumps most of the time.

This post was mostly about actual bugs and less about redesigning parts of the map but I agree with some of the people above specifically the posts about the annoying railing thing devouring splash whenever it can. I have similar issues with the large metal sheet thing on the other side but much less frequently. As for holding last I think that maybe giving the people pushing into last a slightly shorter spawnwave could help but would maybe cause the issue that the old snakewater had with 4 man sacks. Either way I really enjoy the map quite a bit and hopefully this update will help a bit with gameplay in the future.

EDIT: There's a bunch of stuff I missed that I will add as I remember it

http://puu.sh/n3gnU/3507596e5b.jpg

You should use a different door prop for this since this kind normally has that little mechanism attached to a ceiling. I am fairly sure that there is a version that does not have it on it.

http://puu.sh/n3o1h/b9966bc533.jpg

7:00 PM - ✌: you can put stickies inside the mechanics of the shutter door
Personally I really really dislike prop doors and find that the simple brush ones that are used on Sunshine and Process/Metalworks are far more consistent and have far fewer issues associated with them. The only real "downside" is that you could argue that they look a bit worse but honestly I don't think the extra detail is worth all the issues that come with them.

http://puu.sh/n3o3F/c0db54b859.jpg

These clip brushes actually only keep you stuck in the little area near where the second forward used to be. I think you could just fully clip over that wall to prevent any issues since there is no reason to have the indent now.

[img]http://puu.sh/n37Bn/0df61f4617.jpg[/img]

I think you should have the fence line up better with the wall here or clip it over, currently it just creates a little weird pocket that you can get caught on if you get bounced near spawn.

[img]http://puu.sh/n37KS/e087d1d2b4.jpg[/img]

Point is kind of a nightmare clipping wise, you can get stuck on just about every single part of it and leads to a lot of frustration in my experience

[img]http://puu.sh/n37V8/1a74cd0e1e.jpg[/img]

These props are pretty annoying since basically the only thing they can really do is block players movement or projectiles. I think moving these outside the map or making them nonsolid would make this area a bit nicer.

[img]http://puu.sh/n384x/6bbe4bd55f.jpg[/img]

Clip over or make nonsolid please

[img]http://puu.sh/n38eq/066d05c52c.jpg[/img]

Would suggest just making these lights nonsolid so you can avoid having the silly clip brush above them that is super awkward

[img]http://puu.sh/n38jH/de339e247d.jpg[/img]

Adding some little clipping brushes around the edges of these boxes would be nice

[img]http://puu.sh/n38xI/c0e7f4d5d2.jpg[/img]

The little door edge being solid is probably one of the most annoying parts of the map imo, tons of areas around the level that you can get caught on these and there is no reason for them to be solid.

[img]http://puu.sh/n38Dv/9d288d963e.jpg[/img]

Another frustrating thing is having solid props on the ceiling that you can get grabbed on when jumping around. Would suggest removing solidity from ALL ceiling props.

[img]http://puu.sh/n38II/e4f7a5961b.jpg[/img]

Random clip brush sticking through the ceiling

[img]http://puu.sh/n38Qx/e3ec22779c.jpg[/img]

This spam angle only exists on red side, I really like it and think you should make it the same on blue side. Currently on blue there's just a little concrete wall blocking it off next to the ammo pack.

[img]http://puu.sh/n38Yj/9bdc986150.jpg[/img]

Why only clip one side :( Also that little flat area next to the ramp is pretty awkward and I don't think it'd be a huge deal if it was removed since you can do most of the spam just on the ramp itself and not be stuck in this little awkward area.

[img]http://puu.sh/n39eD/ed45cb85e9.jpg[/img]

Redoing a bunch of the clipping around this door would be nice, you can get stuck between the two brushes if you're standing on the tires in the corner.

[img]http://puu.sh/n3b3m/d0f66c68e9.jpg[/img]

for what purpose

[img]http://puu.sh/n39lh/3d0634e068.jpg[/img]

Neither of the clip brushes above the doors actually work, I would suggest just making the door prop nonsolid so you don't have to deal with that.

[img]http://puu.sh/n39qQ/8b6796797a.jpg[/img]

clip please

[img]http://puu.sh/n39tI/f0ca3ec1eb.jpg[/img]

Same stuff here, also the really annoying roof clipping sucks but I will talk about that later.

[img]http://puu.sh/n39ys/1b5fa747f3.jpg[/img]

Should clip the edges on both sides. Also probably should just put some stuff under that ramp because it serves no real purpose.

[img]http://puu.sh/n39H4/027a0f77d2.jpg[/img]

The clip brush above these boxes doesn't really seem to serve a purpose

[img]http://puu.sh/n39Rd/6f36c8b202.jpg[/img]

Not sure why the clipping extends this far over the roof, also making the lights nonsolid here would be super nice and let you can one of those weird clipping brushes.

[img]http://puu.sh/n3a4c/e081006e59.jpg[/img]

You can catch your head here a lot if you're coming up out of lower and somewhat hugging the wall, I would suggest lowering the displacement a bit here so this does not happen.

[img]http://puu.sh/n3a83/b04b453fec.jpg[/img]

Should clip over this wall

[img]http://puu.sh/n3ad3/7b4f539f5b.jpg[/img]

I think you should either make all of those beams on the ceiling non solid or clip over the extra area that they protrude so you cannot get stuck on them.

[img]http://puu.sh/n3al1/72d42b5e47.jpg[/img]

Small clip brush here would be nice, same with a bunch of the other props in the lower area leading to second

[img]http://puu.sh/n3axI/6bce25cbc8.jpg[/img]

Basically all of saw needs a clipping pass since there is a whole lot of weird shit going on in here. The little bars that are just above door height are only clipped on the top side and there is a huge gap in the clipping at the top of the ceiling. Also I would like a return of the little metal bands that you could hide on similar to granary.

[img]http://puu.sh/n3aPe/aa35fcfaa6.jpg[/img]

This is a thing that is probably only going to bother me but I still think it's pretty sloppy looking and could cause issues in some weird situations. Either way if you're going to be cleaning up a bunch of other stuff redoing the clipping above the doors would be nice.

[img]http://puu.sh/n3bb0/fa49cb59e7.jpg[/img]

This is honestly the reason I even went and made the post. The way that you've clipped off basically every roof on the map is super annoying. I think that you really should consider swapping to the pro viaduct way of clipping off roofs. Having the actual building top clipped over but the little decorative lip be non solid. This would make a lot of the areas on the map a lot nicer as soldier as currently most of the stuff that you would want to jump off of has a little brush on the top that kinda fucks your jumps most of the time.

This post was mostly about actual bugs and less about redesigning parts of the map but I agree with some of the people above specifically the posts about the annoying railing thing devouring splash whenever it can. I have similar issues with the large metal sheet thing on the other side but much less frequently. As for holding last I think that maybe giving the people pushing into last a slightly shorter spawnwave could help but would maybe cause the issue that the old snakewater had with 4 man sacks. Either way I really enjoy the map quite a bit and hopefully this update will help a bit with gameplay in the future.

EDIT: There's a bunch of stuff I missed that I will add as I remember it

[img]http://puu.sh/n3gnU/3507596e5b.jpg[/img]

You should use a different door prop for this since this kind normally has that little mechanism attached to a ceiling. I am fairly sure that there is a version that does not have it on it.

[img]http://puu.sh/n3o1h/b9966bc533.jpg[/img]

7:00 PM - ✌: you can put stickies inside the mechanics of the shutter door
Personally I really really dislike prop doors and find that the simple brush ones that are used on Sunshine and Process/Metalworks are far more consistent and have far fewer issues associated with them. The only real "downside" is that you could argue that they look a bit worse but honestly I don't think the extra detail is worth all the issues that come with them.

[img]http://puu.sh/n3o3F/c0db54b859.jpg[/img]

These clip brushes actually only keep you stuck in the little area near where the second forward used to be. I think you could just fully clip over that wall to prevent any issues since there is no reason to have the indent now.

#19

sops

7 Frags – +

Generally going over small cracks that swallow splash damage and aren't useful for demomen would be great.
Would really help the mental stability of soldiers during matches.

Show Content

http://i.imgur.com/nLBrFN0.jpg

edit: didn't see the above post

Generally going over small cracks that swallow splash damage and aren't useful for demomen would be great.
Would really help the mental stability of soldiers during matches.
[spoiler][img]http://i.imgur.com/nLBrFN0.jpg[/img][/spoiler]
edit: didn't see the above post

#20

liko

11 Frags – +

it's always extremely boring when playing against skeez' turtle team

#21

neon

5 Frags – +

stealing somebody elses pic

http://puu.sh/n38jH/de339e247d.jpg

on blu last you can put stickies inside the sign

stealing somebody elses pic
[img]http://puu.sh/n38jH/de339e247d.jpg[/img]
on blu last you can put stickies inside the sign

#22

nite

11 Frags – +

Gonna go over some more technical issues with the map so that you have somewhere to start working

minor displacement bug

http://i.imgur.com/ungNsrN.jpg

a lot of clipping stuff i'd like to see changed

one that someone mentioned upthread and probably the most egregious example, this messes people up constantly and you could probably just shorten how much the roof hangs over in addition to adding some clipping

http://i.imgur.com/2vzv9sK.jpg

no clipping here

http://i.imgur.com/ZnRfmQi.jpg

no clipping here

http://i.imgur.com/3QeqVMV.jpg

no clipping here

http://i.imgur.com/inK3bS6.jpg

no clipping here (sorry for bad pic, this is inside lobby)

http://i.imgur.com/zKvF7fO.jpg

no clipping here

http://i.imgur.com/ZovGnJT.jpg

no clipping here (easy to get stuck between that door frame and the support beams)

http://i.imgur.com/RNBv8MZ.jpg

no clipping here

http://i.imgur.com/SHdSbya.jpg

last clipping issue, although personally i think you should just get rid of this spot altogether, it really makes no sense

http://i.imgur.com/xFNAIU7.jpg

more awkward/underutilized/impeding geometry

this spot at mid catches my head constantly, because the platform sticks out past the wall next to it, i would fill this in or move the stairs back a bit so that you cant accidentally get stuck under it when you're running past it.

http://i.imgur.com/FsSbxEU.jpg

the pinch at this spot really doesnt make much sense, i'm not sure if its even something that needs to be fixed but it's very awkward

http://i.imgur.com/lNhbBV1.jpg

as far as overall balance changes go w/r/t last stalemates, i think that tends to happen because there are really no viable ways to push in and rotating is slow because of the width of last. shutter is a super choke and easily trapped, and lower means you're giving up any and all positional advantage, which means that pushing the main door is the only viable route, and is defended the most heavily. rotating to shutter is really telegraphed every time because everyone just disappears from the doorway, and rotating to lower takes ages because you have to rotate to shutter then go down the ramp then clear a narrow doorway to be out lower. maybe shrinking how wide last is could help attackers get in more easily, because rotating would be less predictable, and maybe removing the shutter and adding some clutter in front of spawn to prevent a sightline would help pushes from that side be more effective. the rest of the map are some of the most interesting and unique 5cp areas and i would shy away from messing with them too much if at all

Gonna go over some more technical issues with the map so that you have somewhere to start working

minor displacement bug
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ungNsrN.jpg[/img]

a [i]lot[/i] of clipping stuff i'd like to see changed

one that someone mentioned upthread and probably the most egregious example, this messes people up constantly and you could probably just shorten how much the roof hangs over in addition to adding some clipping
[img]http://i.imgur.com/2vzv9sK.jpg[/img]

no clipping here
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ZnRfmQi.jpg[/img]

no clipping here
[img]http://i.imgur.com/3QeqVMV.jpg[/img]

no clipping here
[img]http://i.imgur.com/inK3bS6.jpg[/img]

no clipping here (sorry for bad pic, this is inside lobby)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/zKvF7fO.jpg[/img]

no clipping here
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ZovGnJT.jpg[/img]

no clipping here (easy to get stuck between that door frame and the support beams)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/RNBv8MZ.jpg[/img]

no clipping here
[img]http://i.imgur.com/SHdSbya.jpg[/img]

last clipping issue, although personally i think you should just get rid of this spot altogether, it really makes no sense
[img]http://i.imgur.com/xFNAIU7.jpg[/img]

more awkward/underutilized/impeding geometry

this spot at mid catches my head constantly, because the platform sticks out past the wall next to it, i would fill this in or move the stairs back a bit so that you cant accidentally get stuck under it when you're running past it.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/FsSbxEU.jpg[/img]

the pinch at this spot really doesnt make much sense, i'm not sure if its even something that needs to be fixed but it's very awkward
[img]http://i.imgur.com/lNhbBV1.jpg[/img]

as far as overall balance changes go w/r/t last stalemates, i think that tends to happen because there are really no viable ways to push in and rotating is slow because of the width of last. shutter is a super choke and easily trapped, and lower means you're giving up any and all positional advantage, which means that pushing the main door is the only viable route, and is defended the most heavily. rotating to shutter is really telegraphed every time because everyone just disappears from the doorway, and rotating to lower takes ages because you have to rotate to shutter then go down the ramp then clear a narrow doorway to be out lower. maybe shrinking how wide last is could help attackers get in more easily, because rotating would be less predictable, and maybe removing the shutter and adding some clutter in front of spawn to prevent a sightline would help pushes from that side be more effective. the rest of the map are some of the most interesting and unique 5cp areas and i would shy away from messing with them too much if at all

#23

azarun

24 Frags – +

[code][/code]

#24

slamBerg

18 Frags – +

http://i.imgur.com/zOHIwIE.png

There is clipping here that prevents you from jumping off the wall into yard easily.

Fix it please.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/zOHIwIE.png[/img]

There is clipping here that prevents you from jumping off the wall into yard easily.

Fix it please.

#25

Pendji

13 Frags – +

The sunset is super depressing to look at imo. Would be nice to see at least a bit of experimentation if you plan to let people play-test it.

Also b4nny pointed out snow particles in kitchen, when jumping on the bucket near the stove. No idea if that's to do with the map itself though.

The sunset is super depressing to look at imo. Would be nice to see at least a bit of experimentation if you plan to let people play-test it.

Also b4nny pointed out snow particles in kitchen, when jumping on the bucket near the stove. No idea if that's to do with the map itself though.

#26

Chriz_Tah_Fah

4 Frags – +

I don't think this was mentioned yet. The main door exit out of lobby has some weird clipping on it that I will sometimes get stuck on while trying to do the wall sticky jump across yard into choke. If this was clipped to be flat it would be nice. I can post a screenshot later, but most people probably know the spot I'm talking about. The door is supposed to be a shutter so it has a little metal piece sticking out that you can sometimes run into and get completely stopped. It happens often enough where I have to make a conscious effort to avoid it during rollouts. Every once in a while I get stuck on it when trying to get more speed off the sticky jump (by walking closer to the wall).

Anyway, it's a little annoying and no one would complain if you clipped it.

I don't think this was mentioned yet. The main door exit out of lobby has some weird clipping on it that I will sometimes get stuck on while trying to do the wall sticky jump across yard into choke. If this was clipped to be flat it would be nice. I can post a screenshot later, but most people probably know the spot I'm talking about. The door is supposed to be a shutter so it has a little metal piece sticking out that you can sometimes run into and get completely stopped. It happens often enough where I have to make a conscious effort to avoid it during rollouts. Every once in a while I get stuck on it when trying to get more speed off the sticky jump (by walking closer to the wall).

Anyway, it's a little annoying and no one would complain if you clipped it.

#27

deetr

3 Frags – +

please don't remove the hiding spot in saw

also you can stand on the clipbrush above the boxes on bats that #18 posted so even if you don't plan to fix every clipbrush please fix that one (or don't if you want people to be able to stand there ig)

please don't remove the hiding spot in saw

also you can stand on the clipbrush above the boxes on bats that #18 posted so even if you don't plan to fix every clipbrush please fix that one (or don't if you want people to be able to stand there ig)

#28

Benroads

6 Frags – +

Chriz_Tah_FahI don't think this was mentioned yet. The main door exit out of lobby has some weird clipping on it that I will sometimes get stuck on while trying to do the wall sticky jump across yard into choke. If this was clipped to be flat it would be nice. I can post a screenshot later, but most people probably know the spot I'm talking about. The door is supposed to be a shutter so it has a little metal piece sticking out that you can sometimes run into and get completely stopped. It happens often enough where I have to make a conscious effort to avoid it during rollouts. Every once in a while I get stuck on it when trying to get more speed off the sticky jump (by walking closer to the wall).

Anyway, it's a little annoying and no one would complain if you clipped it.

http://puu.sh/n3gjy/9b5c3494c2.jpg

I think this is the area you're talking about, I somewhat included it in my post but it was more of a general point on the map since I didn't want to go around and have a screenshot of each area he used this prop in. Having all instances of this prop be nonsolid would be great since it really only seems to annoy people.

[quote=Chriz_Tah_Fah]I don't think this was mentioned yet. The main door exit out of lobby has some weird clipping on it that I will sometimes get stuck on while trying to do the wall sticky jump across yard into choke. If this was clipped to be flat it would be nice. I can post a screenshot later, but most people probably know the spot I'm talking about. The door is supposed to be a shutter so it has a little metal piece sticking out that you can sometimes run into and get completely stopped. It happens often enough where I have to make a conscious effort to avoid it during rollouts. Every once in a while I get stuck on it when trying to get more speed off the sticky jump (by walking closer to the wall).

Anyway, it's a little annoying and no one would complain if you clipped it.[/quote]

[img]http://puu.sh/n3gjy/9b5c3494c2.jpg[/img]

I think this is the area you're talking about, I somewhat included it in my post but it was more of a general point on the map since I didn't want to go around and have a screenshot of each area he used this prop in. Having all instances of this prop be nonsolid would be great since it really only seems to annoy people.

#29

samiface

18 Frags – +

i'm a newer player, but of all the 6v6 maps in rotation, snakewater is my favorite. good job and thanks! just my 2 cents :)

#30

kusheen

-12 Frags – +

bring back the poopchute on second pls ty