Here's the question you need to ask all of the non-stock miniguns.
What do I get, and what do I lose for equipping this?
One of the reasons the Tomislav is so good is that it doesn't make the Heavy even worse at any of his downsides. Not only that, but the downside of 20% slower firing speed is almost completely made up for by the 20% extra accuracy in 1v1s. Depending on the distance, it can actually be more valuable than the firing speed. Meanwhile the other upside? 20% faster rev-down? Makes the heavy less bad at one of his downsides, the fact that he has to spin up to fight anyone.
The Natasha. Unlike the Tomislav you are becoming worse at something you are already bad at, your rev-down time is now an even bigger problem. You also become worse at something you are good at; putting out damage. However you also improve in two things the heavy is good at: taking the brunt of the enemy teams damage and teamfights. Heavy is already a class that is very hard to deal with if he has teammates backing him up. Heavy's poor speed and being able to chase down opponents can be perfectly fixed with a scout by his side, his reliable hitscan weapon and immense close-range DPS make it very hard for the enemy to get close enough to have an advantage against a friendly demoman, and a medic can completely negate what would otherwise be an extreme weakness to chip damage (like an enemy pyro spamming the scorch shot from across the map) among other things. The Natasha enhances all of this and helps the heavy in his natural job of helping the team.
The Brass Beast makes heavy very weak against two things he is already extremely weak in, in return for buffing his ability in two things he's strong at. The slower spin-up I've already went over how that's bad for the natasha, but the heavy is already the most immobile of the 9 classes. By a fucking mile. Remember how low on the totem pole he is, in 6s the medic is considered an immobile class, but he's still more mobile than a sniper, who is more mobile than a stickyless and shieldless demo, who is more mobile than a rocketless soldier, who is more mobile than a shotgun heavy, who is more mobile than a reved down heavy. And the brass beast reduces his mobility by SIXTY PERCENT? Mobility is something that is so important that it makes a 125 hp class that uses a shotgun with slightly higher ramp-up into one of the most powerful and devastating classes in the game. Because of fucking mobility. And the BB gun reduces the heavies mobility by 60%? That is just such a fucking strong downside in TF2. It takes the heavies biggest weakness and takes it to the extreme. 20% extra damage and 20% damage reduction are good upsides, but they are nowhere near good enough to make up for this. I can safely say that if the rev-down increase was removed completely, the BB gun would still be shit, but if the movement speed decrease was removed the BB gun would be flat overpowered.
The Heater, at least. It again makes the heavy worse at one of his downsides; he's bad at conserving ammo. The problem is the upside it gives you? Isn't an upside. The heater is inherently flawed as it only would improve a new heavy's abilities. Anyone who gets that close to a heavy is already going to have to deal with his 400 DPS hitscan minigun. Only if a heavy can't aim will the heater actually come to be useful, otherwise anyone would die before it managed to get anything done. The Brass Beast may be terrible, but it's at least got a niche and is fun on pubs, the Heater is just a direct downgrade to stock.
Here's the question you need to ask all of the non-stock miniguns.
What do I get, and what do I lose for equipping this?
One of the reasons the Tomislav is so good is that it doesn't make the Heavy even worse at any of his downsides. Not only that, but the downside of 20% slower firing speed is almost completely made up for by the 20% extra accuracy in 1v1s. Depending on the distance, it can actually be more valuable than the firing speed. Meanwhile the other upside? 20% faster rev-down? Makes the heavy less bad at one of his downsides, the fact that he has to spin up to fight anyone.
The Natasha. Unlike the Tomislav you are becoming worse at something you are already bad at, your rev-down time is now an even bigger problem. You also become worse at something you are good at; putting out damage. However you also improve in two things the heavy is good at: taking the brunt of the enemy teams damage and teamfights. Heavy is already a class that is very hard to deal with if he has teammates backing him up. Heavy's poor speed and being able to chase down opponents can be perfectly fixed with a scout by his side, his reliable hitscan weapon and immense close-range DPS make it very hard for the enemy to get close enough to have an advantage against a friendly demoman, and a medic can completely negate what would otherwise be an extreme weakness to chip damage (like an enemy pyro spamming the scorch shot from across the map) among other things. The Natasha enhances all of this and helps the heavy in his natural job of helping the team.
The Brass Beast makes heavy very weak against two things he is already extremely weak in, in return for buffing his ability in two things he's strong at. The slower spin-up I've already went over how that's bad for the natasha, but the heavy is already the most immobile of the 9 classes. By a fucking mile. Remember how low on the totem pole he is, in 6s the medic is considered an immobile class, but he's still more mobile than a sniper, who is more mobile than a stickyless and shieldless demo, who is more mobile than a rocketless soldier, who is more mobile than a shotgun heavy, who is more mobile than a reved down heavy. And the brass beast reduces his mobility by SIXTY PERCENT? Mobility is something that is so important that it makes a 125 hp class that uses a shotgun with slightly higher ramp-up into one of the most powerful and devastating classes in the game. Because of fucking mobility. And the BB gun reduces the heavies mobility by 60%? That is just such a fucking strong downside in TF2. It takes the heavies biggest weakness and takes it to the extreme. 20% extra damage and 20% damage reduction are good upsides, but they are nowhere near good enough to make up for this. I can safely say that if the rev-down increase was removed completely, the BB gun would still be shit, but if the movement speed decrease was removed the BB gun would be flat overpowered.
The Heater, at least. It again makes the heavy worse at one of his downsides; he's bad at conserving ammo. The problem is the upside it gives you? Isn't an upside. The heater is inherently flawed as it only would improve a new heavy's abilities. Anyone who gets that close to a heavy is already going to have to deal with his 400 DPS hitscan minigun. Only if a heavy can't aim will the heater actually come to be useful, otherwise anyone would die before it managed to get anything done. The Brass Beast may be terrible, but it's at least got a niche and is fun on pubs, the Heater is just a direct downgrade to stock.
Tomislav is the only gun that makes Heavy somewhat fun, but with everyone complaining about it being OP they're totally gonna nerf it :|
Tomislav is the only gun that makes Heavy somewhat fun, but with everyone complaining about it being OP they're totally gonna nerf it :|
tigid-sorry, i play 6v6
if u dont use heavy in 6s yr a retard
[quote=tigid-]sorry, i play 6v6[/quote]
if u dont use heavy in 6s yr a retard
tigid-sorry, i play 6v6
so?
[quote=tigid-]sorry, i play 6v6[/quote]
so?
tigid-sorry, i play 6v6
yeah because heavy is useless on holding last or holding a point in general
[quote=tigid-]sorry, i play 6v6[/quote]
yeah because heavy is useless on holding last or holding a point in general
The natasha was really good, but now its quite a bit less so now that you need to below 50% heath the take advantage of the bonus.
The natasha was really good, but now its quite a bit less so now that you need to below 50% heath the take advantage of the bonus.
the bonus was really only important because it blocked sniper OHKs. Natascha is still probably the best for 6s but its not as clear cut as it was a month ago
the bonus was really only important because it blocked sniper OHKs. Natascha is still probably the best for 6s but its not as clear cut as it was a month ago
yeah the slow on natascha is still really fucking gay
yeah the slow on natascha is still really fucking gay
[quote=tigid-]sorry, i play 6v6[/quote]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/HDtdZiU.png[/img]
Use the tomislav for mid-range and further, and stock for close range.
Use the tomislav for mid-range and further, and stock for close range.
eeethe bonus was really only important because it blocked sniper OHKs. Natascha is still probably the best for 6s but its not as clear cut as it was a month ago
The reduced damage from spam and the fact that it took like 6 pipes or 7 rockets to kill you if you were being healed was what made it really good. The reduced spin up time makes it pretty trash now. I use the stock on last in 6v6 and on viaduct in matchmaking, and it works if you can aim well.
[quote=eee]the bonus was really only important because it blocked sniper OHKs. Natascha is still probably the best for 6s but its not as clear cut as it was a month ago[/quote]
The reduced damage from spam and the fact that it took like 6 pipes or 7 rockets to kill you if you were being healed was what made it really good. The reduced spin up time makes it pretty trash now. I use the stock on last in 6v6 and on viaduct in matchmaking, and it works if you can aim well.
Tomislav is a lot stronger in 6's because you're actually in a position to abuse the benefits it provides. It's only used in niche situations in highlander because sniper is so omnipresent and so you won't get much benefit out of the 20% more accurate spread. Also the dps down is only really relevant in heavy v heavy fights, which obviously rarely happen in 6's.
Whether or not these benefits over stock would make the tomislav broken in 6's is a different matter of course. I'd put it in the degreaser category where like yea it's superior to stock but that in it of itself does not warrant a ban. Interesting to hear others thoughts on it.
Tomislav is a lot stronger in 6's because you're actually in a position to abuse the benefits it provides. It's only used in niche situations in highlander because sniper is so omnipresent and so you won't get much benefit out of the 20% more accurate spread. Also the dps down is only really relevant in heavy v heavy fights, which obviously rarely happen in 6's.
Whether or not these benefits over stock would make the tomislav broken in 6's is a different matter of course. I'd put it in the degreaser category where like yea it's superior to stock but that in it of itself does not warrant a ban. Interesting to hear others thoughts on it.
Huckhttp://i.imgur.com/HDtdZiU.png
He's from hell and is 98! ThAts SO r4nDOM XD
[quote=Huck]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/HDtdZiU.png[/img][/quote]
He's from hell and is 98! ThAts SO r4nDOM XD
Miniguns cone is so unbelievably massive that the accuracy is beneficial at any range where you wouldnt melt your target in half a second.
even heavy v heavy doesnt matter cuz if youre solo pushing as a heavy then youre probably having a stroke
Miniguns cone is so unbelievably massive that the accuracy is beneficial at any range where you wouldnt melt your target in half a second.
even heavy v heavy doesnt matter cuz if youre solo pushing as a heavy then youre probably having a stroke
Brass beast could actually be a sick ambush weapon if u gave it a silent spinning sound like the tomislav. As an attribute would make way more sense on that weapon as opposed to the tomislav which is just better at direct combat anyway.
Brass beast could actually be a sick ambush weapon if u gave it a silent spinning sound like the tomislav. As an attribute would make way more sense on that weapon as opposed to the tomislav which is just better at direct combat anyway.
tigid-sorry, i play 6v6
i bet heavy and his minigun saved you from losing some 6v6 games boy
[quote=tigid-]sorry, i play 6v6[/quote]
i bet heavy and his minigun saved you from losing some 6v6 games boy
I play heavy strictly for the voice acting when firing the primary gun non-stop.
Vzzzzzt! Rahrahrahrah! Vrrrrr! Wahahahaaaaaa!
I play heavy strictly for the voice acting when firing the primary gun non-stop.
[b]Vzzzzzt! Rahrahrahrah! Vrrrrr! Wahahahaaaaaa![/b]
BBiA_duchesseeethe bonus was really only important because it blocked sniper OHKs. Natascha is still probably the best for 6s but its not as clear cut as it was a month ago
The reduced damage from spam and the fact that it took like 6 pipes or 7 rockets to kill you if you were being healed was what made it really good. The reduced spin up time makes it pretty trash now. I use the stock on last in 6v6 and on viaduct in matchmaking, and it works if you can aim well.
I really don't think the spin up matters all that much in a 6s game. The extra health still matters a bit against rockets and pipes but its less omnipresent I guess. Main thing is the slow down, while nerfed, is still noticeably useful enough. The damage on a minigun in 6s is irrelevant so utility becomes the deciding factor most of the time. Stock v Unlocks is basically always gonna tilt towards an unlock if that unlock offers something other than "loldamage" because heavy already has so much damage. Tomi has extra range and Natascha makes scout into engineers, so even though they do less damage, they end up helping the team more.
[quote=BBiA_duchess][quote=eee]the bonus was really only important because it blocked sniper OHKs. Natascha is still probably the best for 6s but its not as clear cut as it was a month ago[/quote]
The reduced damage from spam and the fact that it took like 6 pipes or 7 rockets to kill you if you were being healed was what made it really good. The reduced spin up time makes it pretty trash now. I use the stock on last in 6v6 and on viaduct in matchmaking, and it works if you can aim well.[/quote]
I really don't think the spin up matters all that much in a 6s game. The extra health still matters a bit against rockets and pipes but its less omnipresent I guess. Main thing is the slow down, while nerfed, is still noticeably useful enough. The damage on a minigun in 6s is irrelevant so utility becomes the deciding factor most of the time. Stock v Unlocks is basically always gonna tilt towards an unlock if that unlock offers something other than "loldamage" because heavy already has so much damage. Tomi has extra range and Natascha makes scout into engineers, so even though they do less damage, they end up helping the team more.
springrollsIt's only used in niche situations in highlander because sniper is so omnipresent and so you won't get much benefit out of the 20% more accurate spread.
wat?
[quote=springrolls]It's only used in niche situations in highlander because sniper is so omnipresent and so you won't get much benefit out of the 20% more accurate spread.[/quote]
wat?
what i meant was that in order for the tomislav to have an advantage over stock you'd have to utilize the more accurate spread which means firing at a things at a distance, which doesn't really happen (from what i've seen) since heavies don't lead pushes and are horribly limited by snipers hardscoping and whatnot.
didn't really articulate that well my bad
what i meant was that in order for the tomislav to have an advantage over stock you'd have to utilize the more accurate spread which means firing at a things at a distance, which doesn't really happen (from what i've seen) since heavies don't lead pushes and are horribly limited by snipers hardscoping and whatnot.
didn't really articulate that well my bad
springrollsfiring at a things at a distance, which doesn't really happen
it does happen, and its very useful.
downfrags for being right ;)
[quote=springrolls]firing at a things at a distance, which doesn't really happen[/quote]
it does happen, and its very useful.
downfrags for being right ;)
Stock is better than tomislov in hl, you run into far more close range situations than you do mid range. Also the biggest fault of the tomislov is it is worse at killing shit thats on your combo than stock, which is one of the biggest roles the heavy fills.
Stock is better than tomislov in hl, you run into far more close range situations than you do mid range. Also the biggest fault of the tomislov is it is worse at killing shit thats on your combo than stock, which is one of the biggest roles the heavy fills.
MiNiStock is better than tomislov in hl, you run into far more close range situations than you do mid range. Also the biggest fault of the tomislov is it is worse at killing shit thats on your combo than stock, which is one of the biggest roles the heavy fills.
I swap between both quite a lot, saying one is better than the other is just plain wrong.
[quote=MiNi]Stock is better than tomislov in hl, you run into far more close range situations than you do mid range. Also the biggest fault of the tomislov is it is worse at killing shit thats on your combo than stock, which is one of the biggest roles the heavy fills.[/quote]
I swap between both quite a lot, saying one is better than the other is just plain wrong.
ScrambledMiNiStock is better than tomislov in hl, you run into far more close range situations than you do mid range. Also the biggest fault of the tomislov is it is worse at killing shit thats on your combo than stock, which is one of the biggest roles the heavy fills.
I swap between both quite a lot, saying one is better than the other is just plain wrong.
I have to agree with scrambled here, they are equally as good in highlander, heavy you do a lot of mid range harassment with the tomislav which allows you to support your demo at a greater range but not quite as effectively as you can at close range with the stock. You just need to look at plat/prem highlander to see that the tomislav/stock split is very close to 50/50 depending on the map and situation. If the tomislav really was that bad then why is it run so much at the top level?
[quote=Scrambled][quote=MiNi]Stock is better than tomislov in hl, you run into far more close range situations than you do mid range. Also the biggest fault of the tomislov is it is worse at killing shit thats on your combo than stock, which is one of the biggest roles the heavy fills.[/quote]
I swap between both quite a lot, saying one is better than the other is just plain wrong.[/quote]
I have to agree with scrambled here, they are equally as good in highlander, heavy you do a lot of mid range harassment with the tomislav which allows you to support your demo at a greater range but not quite as effectively as you can at close range with the stock. You just need to look at plat/prem highlander to see that the tomislav/stock split is very close to 50/50 depending on the map and situation. If the tomislav really was that bad then why is it run so much at the top level?
I think that finally the Tomislav and Minigun have the same relationship that the Direct Hit and Rocket Launcher have, and that's a wonderful thing.
Clearly the BB, Natascha, and Huo Long need some serious work though.
I think that finally the Tomislav and Minigun have the same relationship that the Direct Hit and Rocket Launcher have, and that's a wonderful thing.
Clearly the BB, Natascha, and Huo Long need some serious work though.
Tomwords
last season of prem there were either heavies that swapped it out a lot or they ran only tomislav, no stock mains though.
[quote=Tom]words[/quote]
last season of prem there were either heavies that swapped it out a lot or they ran only tomislav, no stock mains though.
yttriumI think that finally the Tomislav and Minigun have the same relationship that the Direct Hit and Rocket Launcher have, and that's a wonderful thing.
Clearly the BB, Natascha, and Huo Long need some serious work though.
as ive said before i think tomisalv is more viable for heavy than dh is for solly. Also heavy is in a better place in terms of weapon choices than before the tomislav got buffed but worse now that the natasha isnt really as viable anymore.
The buffs to the tomislav dont really make up for the multiple nerfs that heavy has had over the last years, so heavy is still not a balanced class. he is an easy class but not a class that when you have the skill or option to play other classes you would often pick. I remember watching some old 6s games on viaduct where teams ran heavy instead of a demo on viaduct and i dont think that will happen with the current way the game is balanced with demo getting slightly nerfed and heavy massivly so, along with the increase in the amount of good scouts at the top level. Heavy needs the rework to allow for more skillful play with greater rewards, because atm heavy doesnt reward putting as much work into as other classes, even engie or pyro have more depth to them.
Im not saying heavy isnt fun despite what the majority of people may think on this forum but he isnt a viable class in the majority of situations in community 6s and even less so if you remove class limits. Even on last defence a 2nd engie or demo would do a lot more work for holding the point than a heavy.
[quote=yttrium]I think that finally the Tomislav and Minigun have the same relationship that the Direct Hit and Rocket Launcher have, and that's a wonderful thing.
Clearly the BB, Natascha, and Huo Long need some serious work though.[/quote]
as ive said before i think tomisalv is more viable for heavy than dh is for solly. Also heavy is in a better place in terms of weapon choices than before the tomislav got buffed but worse now that the natasha isnt really as viable anymore.
The buffs to the tomislav dont really make up for the multiple nerfs that heavy has had over the last years, so heavy is still not a balanced class. he is an easy class but not a class that when you have the skill or option to play other classes you would often pick. I remember watching some old 6s games on viaduct where teams ran heavy instead of a demo on viaduct and i dont think that will happen with the current way the game is balanced with demo getting slightly nerfed and heavy massivly so, along with the increase in the amount of good scouts at the top level. Heavy needs the rework to allow for more skillful play with greater rewards, because atm heavy doesnt reward putting as much work into as other classes, even engie or pyro have more depth to them.
Im not saying heavy isnt fun despite what the majority of people may think on this forum but he isnt a viable class in the majority of situations in community 6s and even less so if you remove class limits. Even on last defence a 2nd engie or demo would do a lot more work for holding the point than a heavy.