While buffing / reworking the weak and underused weapons in TF2 is less important than nerfing / reworking the most broken and overpowered weapons (such as those not on the ETF2L whitelist), I think it's worthwhile to suggest some changes for those weak weapons. Many of them don't need huge buffs, just some minor changes to make them an interesting alternative to stock.
I'm talking about weapons like the Back Scatter, Liberty Launcher, Cow Mangler, and the Righteous Bison. We can give Valve suggestions on how to change these weapons so that they're not complete garbage, without making them so strong or broken that they have to be banned in league play. Here's an example idea of mine:
Cow Mangler:
- remove hidden slower initial reload speed penalty
- add -15% damage penalty
- remove minicrits from charged shot
- give charged shot a larger (+25% ?) splash radius than normal rockets instead
Reasoning:
The slower initial reload speed makes this weapon very unfun to use. When chaining together rocket jumps, trying to move quickly around the map, and fighting players, you're constantly finding yourself out of ammo when you expected to have reloaded. It's frustrating to use as a result. It's important for the weapon to have some downside in teamfights and spam, though, as not having to pick up ammo is a pretty big deal. The damage penalty is a less frustrating and more standard means of balancing this.
Minicrits on the charged shot are a big problem because of the lack of damage falloff- you can be miles away from a choke, from where you shouldn't be able to deal massive damage, and oneshot players if you happen to hit them. Afterburn and larger splash radius make the charged shot useful and dangerous- but it's still a big risk to use all your clip at once right at the beginning of a teamfight.
What do you guys think? What changes to some weak and rarely used unlocks would you like Valve to make?
While buffing / reworking the weak and underused weapons in TF2 is less important than nerfing / reworking the most broken and overpowered weapons (such as those not on the ETF2L whitelist), I think it's worthwhile to suggest some changes for those weak weapons. Many of them don't need huge buffs, just some minor changes to make them an interesting alternative to stock.
I'm talking about weapons like the Back Scatter, Liberty Launcher, Cow Mangler, and the Righteous Bison. We can give Valve suggestions on how to change these weapons so that they're not complete garbage, without making them so strong or broken that they have to be banned in league play. Here's an example idea of mine:
Cow Mangler:
- remove hidden slower initial reload speed penalty
- add -15% damage penalty
- remove minicrits from charged shot
- give charged shot a larger (+25% ?) splash radius than normal rockets instead
Reasoning:
The slower initial reload speed makes this weapon very unfun to use. When chaining together rocket jumps, trying to move quickly around the map, and fighting players, you're constantly finding yourself out of ammo when you expected to have reloaded. It's frustrating to use as a result. It's important for the weapon to have some downside in teamfights and spam, though, as not having to pick up ammo is a pretty big deal. The damage penalty is a less frustrating and more standard means of balancing this.
Minicrits on the charged shot are a big problem because of the lack of damage falloff- you can be miles away from a choke, from where you shouldn't be able to deal massive damage, and oneshot players if you happen to hit them. Afterburn and larger splash radius make the charged shot useful and dangerous- but it's still a big risk to use all your clip at once right at the beginning of a teamfight.
What do you guys think? What changes to some weak and rarely used unlocks would you like Valve to make?
Hey, Cow Mangler is pretty bad. Let's make it even worse!
Hey, Cow Mangler is pretty bad. Let's make it even worse!
except cow mangler/back scatter aren't weak because their main mechanics (infinite ammo/mini crits) are broken as a gameplay mechanic and unless they're nerfed into uselessness they won't be allowed. cow mangler reload penalty was recently fixed anyways, too
liberty launcher will never be used seriously because it relies on hitting more directs for less damage and would have to be completely reworked (for the third time or something)
righteous bison was perfectly viable if situational until a recent nerf :(
except cow mangler/back scatter aren't weak because their main mechanics (infinite ammo/mini crits) are broken as a gameplay mechanic and unless they're nerfed into uselessness they won't be allowed. cow mangler reload penalty was recently fixed anyways, too
liberty launcher will never be used seriously because it relies on hitting more directs for less damage and would have to be completely reworked (for the third time or something)
righteous bison was perfectly viable if situational until a recent nerf :(
shorasHey, Cow Mangler is pretty bad. Let's make it even worse!
I tried to come up with an example suggestion- I don't think it would be worse, but I could very well be wrong. The point is, what are your ideas? I want people here to suggest stuff. We complain a lot about reddit's buff/nerf ideas, so we should give valve more of our own.
[quote=shoras]Hey, Cow Mangler is pretty bad. Let's make it even worse![/quote]
I tried to come up with an example suggestion- I don't think it would be worse, but I could very well be wrong. The point is, what are your ideas? I want people here to suggest stuff. We complain a lot about reddit's buff/nerf ideas, so we should give valve more of our own.
CitricMinicrits on the charged shot are a big problem because of the lack of damage falloff- you can be miles away from a choke, from where you shouldn't be able to deal massive damage, and oneshot players if you happen to hit them. Afterburn and larger splash radius make the charged shot useful and dangerous- but it's still a big risk to use all your clip at once right at the beginning of a teamfight.
just give it normal ammo and make it have some a little more than stock (not in clip), also if you get hit by a full charged cow mangler shot from long range, i cant help but laugh at how you walked into something like that
also remove the hidden reload speed bug that wasnt actually fixed
[quote=Citric]
Minicrits on the charged shot are a big problem because of the lack of damage falloff- you can be miles away from a choke, from where you shouldn't be able to deal massive damage, and oneshot players if you happen to hit them. Afterburn and larger splash radius make the charged shot useful and dangerous- but it's still a big risk to use all your clip at once right at the beginning of a teamfight.[/quote]
just give it normal ammo and make it have some a little more than stock (not in clip), also if you get hit by a full charged cow mangler shot from long range, i cant help but laugh at how you walked into something like that
also remove the hidden reload speed bug that wasnt actually fixed
fightexcept cow mangler/back scatter aren't weak because their main mechanics (infinite ammo/mini crits) are broken as a gameplay mechanic and unless they're nerfed into uselessness they won't be allowed. cow mangler reload penalty was recently fixed anyways, too
Cowmangler is allowed in ETF2L 6s, yet you dont see lots of lazor weapons, suggesting it isnt as op as you think. Also the reload time is still the same it is only the animation that changed.
[quote=fight]except cow mangler/back scatter aren't weak because their main mechanics (infinite ammo/mini crits) are broken as a gameplay mechanic and unless they're nerfed into uselessness they won't be allowed. cow mangler reload penalty was recently fixed anyways, too
[/quote]
Cowmangler is allowed in ETF2L 6s, yet you dont see lots of lazor weapons, suggesting it isnt as op as you think. Also the reload time is still the same it is only the animation that changed.
What if the syringe gun needles stayed on the ground and u could walk over them to get health.
What if the syringe gun needles stayed on the ground and u could walk over them to get health.
capnfapnWhat if the syringe gun needles stayed on the ground and u could walk over them to get health.
what if they work like a bunch of mini arrows so you can long range heal your teammates at like 4-5 hp per needle
[quote=capnfapn]What if the syringe gun needles stayed on the ground and u could walk over them to get health.[/quote]
what if they work like a bunch of mini arrows so you can long range heal your teammates at like 4-5 hp per needle
Here's an idea: change 95% of the unlocks to be reskins of stocks. Hooray game's not unbalancable anymore.
Here's an idea: change 95% of the unlocks to be reskins of stocks. Hooray game's not unbalancable anymore.
HellbentHere's an idea: change 95% of the unlocks to be reskins of stocks. Hooray game's not unbalancable anymore.
too late all the r/tf2 pubbies are used to shit like the sandman and sodemy pooper
[quote=Hellbent]Here's an idea: change 95% of the unlocks to be reskins of stocks. Hooray game's not unbalancable anymore.[/quote]
too late all the r/tf2 pubbies are used to shit like the sandman and sodemy pooper
toads_tfcapnfapnWhat if the syringe gun needles stayed on the ground and u could walk over them to get health.
what if they work like a bunch of mini arrows so you can long range heal your teammates at like 4-5 hp per needle
I think that could be added on too but it should be less effective than arrows. I figured it would interesting to have a weapon that would give medics more options on ways to play. It would foster new strategies like laying a bunch of needles on the point to make it a little easier to cap when playing it, placing them on the flank as an extra health pack etc.
[quote=toads_tf][quote=capnfapn]What if the syringe gun needles stayed on the ground and u could walk over them to get health.[/quote]
what if they work like a bunch of mini arrows so you can long range heal your teammates at like 4-5 hp per needle[/quote]
I think that could be added on too but it should be less effective than arrows. I figured it would interesting to have a weapon that would give medics more options on ways to play. It would foster new strategies like laying a bunch of needles on the point to make it a little easier to cap when playing it, placing them on the flank as an extra health pack etc.
Maybe think about changing weapons that actually need changes instead of changing weapons that dont really need changing?
Maybe think about changing weapons that actually need changes instead of changing weapons that dont really need changing?
Am I the only one who feels that this kind of thread keeps popping up and dying while the old threads of the same topic fall into obscurity?
Why is there this need to make a new thread instead of using the older ones, which actually have some good points made.
Am I the only one who feels that this kind of thread keeps popping up and dying while the old threads of the same topic fall into obscurity?
Why is there this need to make a new thread instead of using the older ones, which actually have some good points made.
The biggest thing valve needs to take a long hard look at weapons that either A) allow forced crits B) allow stuns or C) give extra health
99% of problem weapons fall into these two categories. If valve would fundamentally change the Natascha, Sandman, CaC, Wrangler, etc the only remaining problem weapons would really be the whip and the GRU. Its really sad that you can pick 2 or 3 weapon stats or mechanics and have the majority of the weapons that have those stats be horribly unfun to play against, but valve will still refuse to remove that weapon stat.
The biggest thing valve needs to take a long hard look at weapons that either A) allow forced crits B) allow stuns or C) give extra health
99% of problem weapons fall into these two categories. If valve would fundamentally change the Natascha, Sandman, CaC, Wrangler, etc the only remaining problem weapons would really be the whip and the GRU. Its really sad that you can pick 2 or 3 weapon stats or mechanics and have the majority of the weapons that have those stats be horribly unfun to play against, but valve will still refuse to remove that weapon stat.
also allow medics to trade needles for shotgun and give up self heal and allow any class that can equip the shotgun to equip the SMG in its place :^)
the shotgun is the only secondary that medic could have as a replacement for the xbow that would even come close to the same utility, which says a lot about how absurdly powerful crossbows are at this point
also allow medics to trade needles for shotgun and give up self heal and allow any class that can equip the shotgun to equip the SMG in its place :^)
the shotgun is the only secondary that medic could have as a replacement for the xbow that would even come close to the same utility, which says a lot about how absurdly powerful crossbows are at this point
DamnEasyMaybe think about changing weapons that actually need changes instead of changing weapons that dont really need changing?
As I said in the first post, fixing the broken unlocks is more important. I see plenty of feedback for those weapons already, I was hoping to see this community's ideas for the other side of the coin- the weapons that are so bad they're never worth using
BrimstoneAm I the only one who feels that this kind of thread keeps popping up and dying while the old threads of the same topic fall into obscurity?
Why is there this need to make a new thread instead of using the older ones, which actually have some good points made.
I've been on TFTV for a while and haven't really seen threads talking about suggestions for buffs / changes to weak and rarely used weapons. If they do exist, bumping long-dead threads is frowned upon anyway. I wanted valve to see this community's suggestions for changes to those weapons, because they've made it clear they read what we say here.
[quote=DamnEasy]Maybe think about changing weapons that actually need changes instead of changing weapons that dont really need changing?[/quote]
As I said in the first post, fixing the broken unlocks is more important. I see plenty of feedback for those weapons already, I was hoping to see this community's ideas for the other side of the coin- the weapons that are so bad they're never worth using
[quote=Brimstone]Am I the only one who feels that this kind of thread keeps popping up and dying while the old threads of the same topic fall into obscurity?
Why is there this need to make a new thread instead of using the older ones, which actually have some good points made.[/quote]
I've been on TFTV for a while and haven't really seen threads talking about suggestions for buffs / changes to weak and rarely used weapons. If they do exist, bumping long-dead threads is frowned upon anyway. I wanted valve to see this community's suggestions for changes to those weapons, because they've made it clear they read what we say here.
Incoming list of suggestions
- Change lunchbox items (any consumable/drinkable item) to only be used once. The item can then only be restored by touching a resupply cabinet, similar to how the razorback works. Will work similarly with sandman and wrap assassin given that the player does not retrieve their ball. Also applies to jarate, mad milk, and cleaver
- Darwin's Danger Shield protects from explosive damage, or at least reduces flinch from explosives. Health addition removed (?)
- Change phlog to have similar properties to the lightning gun from quake. No significant afterburn exists, other than maybe a 1/2-1 second
- ACTUALLY make the LnL a 2 barreled weapon. Also reduce the amount of damage to players, but keep the damage dealt to buildings the same as it is currently
- Remove the destroy enemy stickies attribute on quickiebomb launcher (my mind will forever be blown why they would buff this in the first place)
- Change the pomson mechanic to be a health drain/health regain on hit. Remove lost ubercharge from medics and lost cloak from spies. Maybe add a reload speed penalty(?)
- Machina penetration only applies when a fully charged headshot is achieved. Every next target hit has (maybe?) a 30-50 percent damage reduction from the initial headshot amount. Overall damage can also be reduced so that a fully charged headshot does not do 450 damage, but enough to where it's not a complete piece of trash.
Part 2 coming later
Incoming list of suggestions
[list]
[*] Change lunchbox items (any consumable/drinkable item) to only be used once. The item can then only be restored by touching a resupply cabinet, similar to how the razorback works. Will work similarly with sandman and wrap assassin given that the player does not retrieve their ball. Also applies to jarate, mad milk, and cleaver
[*] Darwin's Danger Shield protects from explosive damage, or at least reduces flinch from explosives. Health addition removed (?)
[*] Change phlog to have similar properties to the lightning gun from quake. No significant afterburn exists, other than maybe a 1/2-1 second
[*] ACTUALLY make the LnL a 2 barreled weapon. Also reduce the amount of damage to players, but keep the damage dealt to buildings the same as it is currently
[*] Remove the destroy enemy stickies attribute on quickiebomb launcher (my mind will forever be blown why they would [b]buff[/b] this in the first place)
[*] Change the pomson mechanic to be a health drain/health regain on hit. Remove lost ubercharge from medics and lost cloak from spies. Maybe add a reload speed penalty(?)
[*] Machina penetration only applies when a [u]fully charged headshot[/u] is achieved. Every next target hit has (maybe?) a 30-50 percent damage reduction from the initial headshot amount. Overall damage can also be reduced so that a fully charged headshot does not do 450 damage, but enough to where it's not a complete piece of trash.
[/list]
Part 2 coming later
Part 2 of suggestions
- Base jumper can only be deployed once while in the air. A recharge timer will begin once the player has touched the ground
- Disciplinary action injures teammates after a certain number of whips. Maybe further reduce the speed boost duration that's given on hit?
- Cow mangler charge shot now grants health back to player on hit, slightly more health received on kill. (maybe) Add more health taken when blast jumping?
- Overdose speed boost begins to kick in earlier. Gain a small percentage of ubercharge on kill. Also possibly change 15% damage penalty back to 10%
- Beggars bazooka rocket damage is reduced with each rocket loaded. First rocket does normal damage, next one does 15(?) percent less, and the next one 20(?) percent less damage
- Equalizer comes with slight base speed increase while out. Damage ramps up with lower health
- Make the wrangler be "battery powered" and only usable for a certain amount of time. As the wrangler approaches half/lower charge levels, the firing speed of a sentry gun decreases. Level 3 sentry gun rockets also have a slower time deploying.
Weapons that I honestly have no idea what to do with:
- Soda Popper
- Atomizer
- Vita-saw
- Short circuit
- Rescue Ranger
- The reserve shooter
- GRU
Part 2 of suggestions
[list]
[*] Base jumper can only be deployed once while in the air. A recharge timer will begin once the player has touched the ground
[*] Disciplinary action injures teammates after a certain number of whips. Maybe further reduce the speed boost duration that's given on hit?
[*] Cow mangler charge shot now grants health back to player on hit, slightly more health received on kill. (maybe) Add more health taken when blast jumping?
[*] Overdose speed boost begins to kick in earlier. Gain a small percentage of ubercharge on kill. Also possibly change 15% damage penalty back to 10%
[*] Beggars bazooka rocket damage is reduced with each rocket loaded. First rocket does normal damage, next one does 15(?) percent less, and the next one 20(?) percent less damage
[*] Equalizer comes with slight base speed increase while out. Damage ramps up with lower health
[*] Make the wrangler be "battery powered" and only usable for a certain amount of time. As the wrangler approaches half/lower charge levels, the firing speed of a sentry gun decreases. Level 3 sentry gun rockets also have a slower time deploying.
[/list]
Weapons that I honestly have no idea what to do with:
[list]
[*] Soda Popper
[*] Atomizer
[*] Vita-saw
[*] Short circuit
[*] Rescue Ranger
[*] The reserve shooter
[*] GRU
[/list]
KonceptEqualizer comes with speed increase while out. Damage ramps up with lower health
#bringbackskillstick
[quote=Koncept]
Equalizer comes with speed increase while out. Damage ramps up with lower health[/quote]
#bringbackskillstick
Koncept[*] Disciplinary action injures teammates after a certain number of whips. Maybe further reduce the speed boost duration that's given on hit?
This is the sort of thing Valve probably wouldn't put in because it is just too easy/obvious to grief with.
[quote=Koncept]
[*] Disciplinary action injures teammates after a certain number of whips. Maybe further reduce the speed boost duration that's given on hit?
[/quote]
This is the sort of thing Valve probably wouldn't put in because it is just too easy/obvious to grief with.
DreamerKoncept[*] Disciplinary action injures teammates after a certain number of whips. Maybe further reduce the speed boost duration that's given on hit?
This is the sort of thing Valve probably wouldn't put in because it is just too easy/obvious to grief with.
That makes sense. Didn't think about it that way. Maybe only having the boost apply to the target rather than the soldier and his target would be a little better
[quote=Dreamer][quote=Koncept]
[*] Disciplinary action injures teammates after a certain number of whips. Maybe further reduce the speed boost duration that's given on hit?
[/quote]
This is the sort of thing Valve probably wouldn't put in because it is just too easy/obvious to grief with.[/quote]
That makes sense. Didn't think about it that way. Maybe only having the boost apply to the target rather than the soldier and his target would be a little better
what if you rework its mechanics and make the GRU give a 2 or 3 second long speed boost when its completely brought out so you cant just switch weapons and constantly go fast forever. this would effectively change the weapon to make it some kind of retreat or quick repositioning utility
maybe even give it a weapon switching penalty
other downsides are negotiable
what if you rework its mechanics and make the GRU give a 2 or 3 second long speed boost when its completely brought out so you cant just switch weapons and constantly go fast forever. this would effectively change the weapon to make it some kind of retreat or quick repositioning utility
maybe even give it a weapon switching penalty
other downsides are negotiable
KonceptDreamerKoncept[*] Disciplinary action injures teammates after a certain number of whips. Maybe further reduce the speed boost duration that's given on hit?
This is the sort of thing Valve probably wouldn't put in because it is just too easy/obvious to grief with.
That makes sense. Didn't think about it that way. Maybe only having the boost apply to the target rather than the soldier and his target would be a little better
I think the hurting idea could still work but only if it happened to the soldier whipping, and he would have reduced healing like on the escape plan so he can't just tank the self damage with a medic.
[quote=Koncept][quote=Dreamer][quote=Koncept]
[*] Disciplinary action injures teammates after a certain number of whips. Maybe further reduce the speed boost duration that's given on hit?
[/quote]
This is the sort of thing Valve probably wouldn't put in because it is just too easy/obvious to grief with.[/quote]
That makes sense. Didn't think about it that way. Maybe only having the boost apply to the target rather than the soldier and his target would be a little better[/quote]
I think the hurting idea could still work but only if it happened to the soldier whipping, and he would have reduced healing like on the escape plan so he can't just tank the self damage with a medic.
fahrenheitwhat if you rework its mechanics and make the GRU give a 2 or 3 second long speed boost when its completely brought out so you cant just switch weapons and constantly go fast forever. this would effectively change the weapon to make it some kind of retreat or quick repositioning utility
maybe even give it a weapon switching penalty
other downsides are negotiable
I want to say kos suggested changing the gru to allow the heavy to bhop and gain speed with each successful bhop, but I'm not entirely sure how valve would explain the idea of bhopping to your average pubber
[quote=fahrenheit]what if you rework its mechanics and make the GRU give a 2 or 3 second long speed boost when its completely brought out so you cant just switch weapons and constantly go fast forever. this would effectively change the weapon to make it some kind of retreat or quick repositioning utility
maybe even give it a weapon switching penalty
other downsides are negotiable[/quote]
I want to say kos suggested changing the gru to allow the heavy to bhop and gain speed with each successful bhop, but I'm not entirely sure how valve would explain the idea of bhopping to your average pubber
bhopping is fun but doesnt actually solve the issue with the GRU.
like the problem with heavy isnt that garbage players do well with him. its that good players know how to use him. (i mean him being easy is dumb but not why grus banned)
imo the gru should just have a passive HP or overheal reduction. the gru compensates for his most notable weakness so if they want it balanced then it should passively nerf something hes good at instead of having a meaningless active downside.
bhopping is fun but doesnt actually solve the issue with the GRU.
like the problem with heavy isnt that garbage players do well with him. its that good players know how to use him. (i mean him being easy is dumb but not why grus banned)
imo the gru should just have a passive HP or overheal reduction. the gru compensates for his most notable weakness so if they want it balanced then it should passively nerf something hes good at instead of having a meaningless active downside.
Kavbhopping is fun but doesnt actually solve the issue with the GRU.
like the problem with heavy isnt that garbage players do well with him. its that good players know how to use him. (i mean him being easy is dumb but not why grus banned)
imo the gru should just have a passive HP or overheal reduction. the gru compensates for his most notable weakness so if they want it balanced then it should passively nerf something hes good at instead of having a meaningless active downside.
it should work like the escape plan
[quote=Kav]bhopping is fun but doesnt actually solve the issue with the GRU.
like the problem with heavy isnt that garbage players do well with him. its that good players know how to use him. (i mean him being easy is dumb but not why grus banned)
imo the gru should just have a passive HP or overheal reduction. the gru compensates for his most notable weakness so if they want it balanced then it should passively nerf something hes good at instead of having a meaningless active downside.[/quote]
it should work like the escape plan