Wow, this map looks really nice can't wait to try it out later.

I tested out the map yesterday on a3 with some friends (Logs here)

The changes to a4 were really not game-changing. "Move center tree to make more room" Didn't change much from Version A3 to Version A4, it mostly just looks different, which is fine.

"Reduced Respawn Time" is very slightly affected from what I saw. On average on A3, you had a 12 second respawn when you own the point, which is ridiculous in ultiduo. On version A4, the spawn is about 10 seconds, which is still a little ridiculous. When you don't own the point, both maps seemed to have a spawn time of 7 seconds. On both koth_ultiduo and ultiduo_baloo, it's 3 seconds when you have point and 0 seconds when you don't have point.

"Reduced cap time" from 25 seconds at 1x and 16 seconds at 2x to 20 seconds at x1 and 13 seconds at x2, a good change, but again it just seems long. Compared to something like koth_ultiduo where it's 10 seconds at x1, and 8 seconds at x2.

"Extended resupply area" Red spawn is fixed, blue spawn isn't.

Overall it's a step in the right direction. Overall the map just feels too slow and too big honestly and there isn't really much "high ground advantage", like baloo or koth_ultiduo have. Maybe it's a good thing cause it's different, but it just seems mostly like floor fights.

Love the design of the map, just could be scaled down a bit, hope later versions turn out even better! :)

Thanks for the feedback, a few things.

I noted that baloo spawns, the respawn supply areas don't cover the entire spawn just where the players spawn and not the entire area, would you prefer if it was like that or the entire spawn?

Would it be better if I make the respawn system just like baloo? So attacker get the bigger advantage.
I guess the cap time is p'decent? maybe quicker?

I will work on decreasing the overall size and scale down some things I think. However I do sorta like the size as I feel it gives lots of choice for possibilities.

A5 Download
A5 Changes:
Map is now 256 smaller, trees are scaled down as well.
High ground next to point lowered
Respawn times should be similar to baloo (with attackers getting advantage)
Cap time decreased
Removed detailing

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261594687628153427/D87EC4431B693593D5D1B1884AD03F8168BEBD1F/

Played this map yesterday and I don't understand why the timer is 6:00 minutes when 5:00 minutes is standard.
The window covers make it impossible to see anyone who isn't standing just outside the windows.
The non-point highground functions oddly because it is difficult to heal a soldier up there, and because of the size of the cap area, it really isn't a place that's strongly advantageous to stand in.
The skybox ceiling is a bit low, if you surf a rocket and then get airshot you will usually hit it.
The trees created this odd dynamic with large amounts of cover uncharacteristic of Ultiduo.

Otherwise it was OK.

I played in the game talked-about in the post above and also watched some other gamers play it and will now combine the feedback here.

5 minute limit please. There's no reason for 6.

Skybox needs to be higher. One surf + one airshot to the legs from the point and you're easily slamming into it.

Try rotating the whole point structure 90 degrees. Right now you have to walk in front of it and then to the left a bit to walk up the ramp. If the ramp was more easily accessible from the front that might help. It's tough to heal a your soldier up there, especially before you go up there yourself... and it's hard to get up there. I realize that is part of the design but I think it could be made a bit smoother with this suggestion.

The map looks cool and is certainly unique which is a plus. The big ass trees (and some of the props) really limit the useable floor space though even though sometimes it's cool to dodge around them and stuff. It's usually a no brainer where to place the rocket against people on foot who approach the point (like the med, always). He'll always walk between the tree and the stump, for example. To counter being spammed I suppose the soldier on the attacking team can jump sooner and harder and force the defending soldier's attention but then the med has to run and catch up and struggle to make it to the point as noted previously. It would take making the whole area bigger in order to space the trees and stuff out more which could be worth a shot or it could ruin the whole vibe you already have going on here.

Sort of the opposite issue occurs with the two tall platforms. Initially I thought they would be the centrally contested part of the map but it's surprising how not useful they seem to be. It's very difficult for the med to heal his soldier up there and for the soldier it's tough to place good spam down at the point since the point area is so wide. If the point was really small, like a more normal nipple, then you couldn't avoid the splash from on high but right now it's very avoidable. In fact it seems like you're in more danger up there with arrows and direct rockets constantly coming at you than you are a threat to people on the point. Placing these two pieces of high ground closer to the point could make them more useful and used but would definitely change the feel of the map. Worth trying I think.

The little ammo packs are far to the sides and only give you, what, 4 or 5 rockets? Most of the time you rely on ammo from the enemies you kill, which is fine, but these side packs don't seem useful. One spawning right in the middle of the point, like in koth_ultiduo_r_b7 could be good, or perhaps atop the two high stumps to incentivize them a bit.

A6 Download
A6 Changes:
Removed 4 Trees
Rotated ramp to point
lowered high ground
Cap timer is 5 min

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261594687634650176/7694267AEE7C8D85C118871A9C951841A71FDBED/

Why people stopped making ultiduo maps that play like the original one i.e. with cap point being on lower ground?

Height variation is fun?
I feel like having a flat point is sorta boring, fighting up, around and over a structure is much more interesting!

Maybe my next one could be on a flat plane.

Well the idea with the original was that you would have to come off the point to defend it and there was actual movement around the map instead of just jumping on the point and rejumping until you got control. There was height variation between where you capped and defended, whereas on a spire they are the same

That's not to say that this map isn't good and fun (it is) but people just wonder why the original idea hasn't been revisited. Ultiduo practically is always just a DM fest but when you are required to move around the map it adds a positioning aspect

Height variation =/= control point on higher ground. Imo it turns ultiduo in a pure DM fest.

If you want, I can try without the middle spire. See how that plays out?

Yeah just play around with a lot of different things if its not a huge deal, and see what people like

A6v2 Download
a6v2:
We shall give this a try!
Removed spire point, made flat cap.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261594687635052294/02641B7D27C019134ED1615716FEED64BC70372F/

I suggest moving the two stumps you can stand on closer to the point. That way, when you land on them you are more shooting rockets rather than spamming and can get more damage

That way the fights dont take place on flat ground but you still have to move away from the point from a greater danger than spam

It is a lot of fun to play, I just spent a few hours with my brothers on a LAN

Same group as the reddit post on a3 and Gunshlinger's post on a4 here.
We tried out a6 today, and it was definitely the best version yet.

Pros:
-With the spawn and cap times as they are now, it definitely 'feels' like an Ultiduo map now, rather than a small KOTH, which is great :D

-Lowered 'stumps' are now usable as high ground, since they're higher than the point, but the target is still heal-able by a med on the ground.
++Still not sure they can really be used to take point, since they're kind of far away, reducing rocket damage by enough not to likely be able to kill a fully pocketed soldier on point, but good for temporary retreat from fighting to heal up, so they definitely serve a purpose now.

-Shifted ramps now allow for less predictability as a med moving around point. Before, there was only one obvious ramp that was in front of you for your team's use, meaning their soldier on point could more easily watch just there to deny heals.

-Yay, 5 minute rounds

Needs work:
-Using the boxes to climb up, it is still frequent to get stuck/hung on the clipping, making it unusable if the other team is alive. I know with the overall shape of the map changing frequently at this stage, it may not be as practical to make these sorts of changes, but it would make the experience much nicer.

-This one is a little more ambiguous, but it is pretty tough to retake, since the places the attacking soldier can land on point are pretty limited if they want to keep the heal beam (which they do)...and the defending soldier can stand in the middle of the point, which is large enough to make it unlikely they will be knocked off by the attacking soldier. We did end up swapping point a decent number of times, so this may not really be an issue, but was an impression the soldiers mentioned.

-Taller skybox

Bonus:
-Minor, but it would be cool if the med could get up on top of the stumps some way other than surfing. Perhaps bringing the rock form back in some way and putting it on the back side to be able to jump to it from the health pack ramp somehow.

P.S.:
I think the v2 version with the flat mid makes it strictly a less interesting fight for point, almost completely a ground fight. To continue in that direction and have it still be interesting, I think there would have to be a direct height variation surrounding point. For instance, the stumps coming closer in and lower to the point (for roughly the same difference in elevation between the point and stumps in v1 version), along with being med-accessible and maybe even adding more of them. Could be 4, total? Not sure if it would work and not impede easy ground movement, though. Would be interesting to see.

Thanks again for your work on the map, and being so receptive to feedback!
edit:spelling

Speaking from a player's perspective and not a mapper's perspective, here's some more feedback.

Let's start with the good. The fixed spawn/cap times and reduced map size definitely help make the map feel more like ultiduo. Excellent job on that. Before it was just super boring sitting on cap forever and spawning forever, so this makes it more fast paced and interesting. The lack of clutter with trees is a change I like.

However, there's more about the map that I currently just dislike. For starters, just from what I played, the high ground stumps on the side are basically useless. Let's use this amazing drawing to help better represent my point. If blue has the point and red wants to re-contest from "high ground", the blue soldier can simply walk away and take like 40 damage spam rockets, that's it. the med is safe-ish on the ramp, and red med has a hard time healing red soldier due to how the high ground is designed. Essentially, like baloo, the only high ground is the point. Those spires on the side don't really add much in my opinion. Maybe other people think differently, but that';s just what I've seen. This is what I feel is the biggest flaw with the map currently.

There's some minor things I don't like, mostly just clipping. You wallbug with the trees, walls, and boxes way too frequently. If you want to make the boxes usable, they need to be consistent. Also the skybox is low like others have pointed out.

The map is shaping up well (just please don't use a6v2) and I hope my feedback can help in some way. :)

Thanks for all the amazing feedback!

A7 Download
A7 Changes:
Removed boxes/ Replaced with better route
Lowered high ground a little
Add some height to bottom of high ground
improved some clipping

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261594687641365277/F0DFA483DC4B09758E4791FA848A96ABBC371BD8/

because thats the worst part of the original map

So first of all that a6v2 was an interesting experiment but ultimately there was simply nothing to that map. The high ground was too far from the fast-capping point and really it was just a featureless, uninteresting ammomod style flat ground battle with some annoying rocks and bushes and logs in the way.

This a7 is definitely the most interesting and best of all the versions so far. There's a bunch of interesting ways to move around the map now and generally every aspect is improved. In the occasional instances when ammo runs out I still think that the packs are super far away and only give you 4 rockets for your efforts. If you keep them there then consider making them medium ammo packs. Otherwise it would be nice to have small ammo packs closer/more centered (there's tons of places they could be put). I don't really understand the height blocks next to the high stumps but it does occasionally help with medic dodging and juking so maybe that's the point. Finally it might be interesting to see the point structure rotated 30-45 degrees clockwise which would again change ease of access to the ramp. The only sad thing about that is it would kinda ruin the cool new path to point using the stack of crates.

It's been great fun testing this and I definitely look forward to playing it more soon. It's great to see this thing shaping up into something unique and good so thanks again for your efforts and willingness to work with feedback.

No?

You get punished for winning a fight - that's how it feels like at least

On the standard ultiduo map (koth_utliduo_b_r7) it puts the ball in the attackers' court once they die and the other team then owns the point. The fight winners had to go to the low ground to capture that point. I don't see this as a bad thing as the whole map promotes movement around the map as well as moments of fine timing. Does the respawning team always just go and wreck the defenders who are stuck on the low ground and instantly recap and then the process repeats the other way? Certainly not. The team that won the fight will usually get both players on the cap asap and then when it's ~75% capped the medic starts running up the side ramp that is deemed best and the soldier finishes the cap by himself and then quickly rocket jumps to his med (if whip is allowed it's very useful here). Then both players are back up on the high ground which people tend to prefer, somewhat understandably. But there's many times when you might not have the time to make it back up top (and you certainly don't want to get caught on the ramp of doom) so you stay below. You can use the bridge to break line of sight and kite around below. Just because the enemy is right above you on the bridge doesn't mean they can necessarily score easy hits on you or that they will always win the ensuing fight. I remember one of the ulti tournaments was won by asianriceguy (and I think caboose on med?) with them just staying on the low ground and using a mix of good delay tactics and directs/ammomod skill to win.

Here's some more feedback after having tested a7

The map definitely feels better than previous versions. the high ground, if you can call it that, kind of makes sense. Although I'm not entirely sure the purpose it serves when it's not really high ground.

As a medic, this map just feels so unsafe at any given time. There's nowhere you can really stand and feel protected, and there's nowhere you can retreat to. When you try and get on point again, you either have to jump 3 times on the boxes, which leaves you super vulnerable, and you can't heal. Or you walk up the ramp, which makes you super vulnerable to spam because there's only one place to go. You can't just play from the ground and let the soldiers sit on high ground because they literally can't be healed from the ground. I just feel like at any time I'm just risking taking 100 damage if their soldier shoots at me and not them. Also throwing arrows on this map just feels super awkward at times because there isn't a safe place to get an arrow.

From the defender's perspective, this map is super easy. you fight the soldier who has to either take high ground with no heals, or take spam on the ground and do basically nothing. It feels really easy and the defending medic can just stand on the ramp and hold there and be semi-safe. Defense has a massive advantage, it feels whichever team gets the point first has a massive advantage.

From the offensive perspective, it's just so hard to push. The medic has to climb the ramp or the steps and take spam, and the soldier has to basically jump alone a lot of the time, and if they don't knock the other soldier off, it's game over.

A lot of the changes are good, and I may be the vocal minority here, but on maps like koth_ultiduo or ultiduo_baloo, I feel safe as a med and soldier, and feels it's at least semi-balanced for attack and defend, yet on this map I don't feel that way.

There's always the option of a baloo point, which I know a lot of people seem to dislike, however I like the idea, but at that point, why not just play baloo? Cause on baloo, you're semi-safe behind point, there's the walls by spawn where you can arrow your soldier, arrow them behind point. You can follow your soldier around the point a lot easier, and the map isn't meant to have medic and solly on the high ground together. When you have the medic and solly on high ground together, naturally they have an advantage because the opposing soldier and med have to climb the high ground, and medic's mobility includes jumping and walking, so he can't maneuver super easily.

On baloo, you can defend the point from the ground, which is nice, because in overtime you can still run out and block people easily. Here you have to climb the steps onto the point to even attempt to block it, which makes it super difficult.

If you want to have the medic and soldier on high ground, you can make a baloo-esque point. Make it capable from the floor, add like some steps that the medic can jump up to the point from, but still be semi-protected possibly, and maybe make the point higher and the stumps on the side higher alongside it. Maybe it's a terrible idea, but I think it's worth a shot. A7 is the best version yet, no doubt about that, but for a medic, in my opinion, it feels not safe.

Hey just a little update on some ideas, see what you think:-
Adding another small ammo pack near to the point?
Add some high wall cover to spawn areas?
Possible add an even easier way to get to point?

This idea is a bit out there and is probably a no but:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12945353/Screenshot%202016-09-05%2003.16.03.png

Idea of this is sorta like baloo but not, Something to fight around, use as cover and can splash off.

Lemme know what you think about these possible ideas.

I think that's a cool idea that might end up playing out really well bakscratch - id like to try that with some friends and maybe give you some feedback if possible

Experiment Version
A8v2 Download
A8V2 Changes:
Added structure to mid
Added 2nd ammo pack before ramp
Added Wall to spawn
bonus detailing.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261595156251398900/1B27DC46BD6B4C14C9EC429F7C271F1B1990378C/

For a7 vs a6

As the above feedback states, it is tough to address point as med, and you are pretty completely reliant on your soldier to be aware of that and make room. If you try to climb early, you'll easily be spammed out. If your soldier goes too far in before you've had time to go with him, he'll be without heals. Given that, though, I think making that room is something the partially have to do to take point anyway. Maybe still a bit strong for defenders vs offenders, but still fun on both ends. Overall, in my opinion, I think this could be getting close to done with major shape changes, and moving more toward visual and polishing ones!

Pros:
-Stumps are now med-accessible :D This adds an interesting movement dynamic for med.
++This does change what seemed to be its most functional purpose in a6. In this version, the height variation is small enough that the soldier on point can jump and splash the stump platform, so it makes it less 'safe' as a fallback point for soldier.

-The 'boxes' way to jump on point now is actually consistent (doesn't result in getting stuck anywhere). It still doesn't seem like it is very often used, since using the 3 jumps to get up there is often going to be much less smooth than taking either of the ramps, but this is probably fine. It might be interesting to see a 'steep' straight ramp here.

Needs work:

-I wouldn't say any new problems were introduced with a7.

Thanks again for your work on the map, and being so receptive to feedback!

It's cool that you're trying all these variants and it is great fun to experiment. That said, mostly as predicted, this tree in the middle is so frustrating. It becomes this corner peeking + against-the-tree-juggling annoying game for soldier and for medic it's extra easy to lose your soldier and generally lose track of what's going on as the line of sight is broken so easily. This is still somewhat tough or dangerous to negotiate your way up to the point as med, which could be fine, but combining that with the tree is just really maddening I think.

The other changes are fine. The ammo pack is good. Not sure about the tall walls, probably ok. The tall wall by the low spawn is weird and less useful. Running behind it puts you into this narrow corridor of doom that's hard to dodge in and easy to splash against the back wall.