Well, tomislav can actually harass at long range so it changes how the game is played, even a bit. It does something different to other players, and has major upsides while still perfectly doing what the minigun can do.

Yes, exactly. What it lets you do can make it overpowered.

But how the tomislav compares to the stock mini-gun (or any or all of the other minigun unlocks) is irrelevant when discussing specifically whether the tomislav is over-, under-powered or well balanced. And that discussion is separate (though related) to whether and what tweaks need applying to it.

The idea is to build with both arrows and normal healing, so lowering the ammount of uber you get per arrow won't make a big difference unless you lower it so much it would be faster to build with just the Medi Gun. And at this point it wouldn't be speeding the game up in any way.

My Enginner experience tells me that you can't rebuild a sentry immediately. It still takes time. And if the enemy Demo would be around, he can just put a couple of stickies under it and destroy it easily.

The main idea of backcapping is going behind enemy lines unnoticed. The main idea of Bonk is to yolo straight into the enemy team. And if you do it, I doubt you'd get to last despite 8 seconds of damage invulnerabilty.

Oh, got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

So, in the end, I'm not so wrong about the tomislav being OP.

But it wouldn't make the game a stalemate either. The game was fine without it. Why are you so opposed to the idea of making the crossbow build slower than the medigun?

But in the meantime the enemy demo would be dead or retreating, due to wasting half the Uber or more.

Why bother being unnoticed if you can catch attention while invicible? You don't need to actually do the backcap.

Stalemates is the main problem of this game (except stopwatch and koth). The latest change to Crossbow brought something new to speed this up, that is why I am so against reverting it.

Speeding up uber building actually makes stalemates a lot easier to achieve because it only means that your time window to push with advantage is smaller and the uber duration/build ratio is higher. The longest stalemates are always during uber vs uber. So making uber building take less time would probably make the game slower and not faster.

The crossbow is an exceptionally overpowered weapon if you take into consideration what the syringe guns are supposed to do, which is shit damage to maybe sometimes kill a player that is almost dead anyway. The crossbow does that and has the possibility of burst healing 75-150hp, which is almost always better than getting any healthpack in all the maps that are in the rotation, plus it also can do ridiculous amounts of damage at long distances, plus it also builds uber. And the arrows are invisible and they piss me off when I get hit by one.

The only reason it's allowed is that medic mains need some happiness in their lives when they do something mechanically skillful and I kind of agree with that, but saying it's not overpowered is a big stretch.

Even if both teams build uber with arrows really quickly and then none of them will push, it will still save some time because they'd probably stalemate while building anyway.
Building with arrows and medi gun is made to create yourself an Uber advantage to quickly push into the enemy team. Pretty sure that's what FT did against Crowns at i58 and were quite successful.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make much sense. If I have 40% advantage and ubers take 40 seconds to build at minimum, that means I have 16 seconds to push and kill a medic before he gets his uber. If he can build uber in 30, that goes out of the window and I will only be able to push with advantage when I have something ridiculous like 80%.

In fact, I've seen many examples of teams building in last to defend against an uber and they were the ones who were being succesful. It probably had more to do with the fact that attacking players weren't really used to arrow building and forgot it was a thing, though.

I also think that Bonk can be potentially very broken, especially in some maps like Badlands. As it is now, it's rather easy to backcap last, but if your team manages to coordinate to push out he can kill anyone that's hiding if the other team is mostly wiped.

I don't want to imagine the pain of trying to push out of last in that map, finding one or two scouts hiding somewhere in the many spots in lobby and having to wait 8 seconds to kill them, by which time the entire team has respawned and is on spire. And you're not even guaranteed to kill them for free, because they might get a pick unless you send even more people back.

I mean..... I wouldn't necessarily agree that the tomislav is OP. My main concern is that you're attempting to contribute to a game balance discussion when you didn't know what makes something OP when you made this thread.

I pretty much know what makes something OP, I just have some trouble explaining things and organizing my thoughts. Now I get what you mean.

Tomislav, if not OP, is a very viable sidegrade. It shines almost in all situations.

1) Define an OP weapon
2) Find a definition that can be universally accepted by all leagues
3) Implement whitelist
4) Accept the whitelist and stop qq

ok ignoring the rest of this thread I think the vast, vast majority of top NAHL players will tell you that a major factor in why HL is so slow is because of razorback. Top snipers in NA play with their combo around them, getting buffed up the ass, so the Amby 2 shot hardly ever works. So now you have a class that can't be easily killed by any other class other than sniper, which means if most other factors are equal, and you have a better sniper than theirs, it's almost impossible for the better sniper to die. There's a whole bunch of other things to be considered, but it basically boils down to a passive unlock for the strongest class in the game hard countering what should be his hard counter, all while losing not too much (jarate is great, but more instakills and sightline zoning is better). I haven't been following tf2 much in the past few months, but from what I can tell the razorback ban has done more good than bad

yes the razorback ban did a lot. it was very overpowered in highlander, but definitely not as much in other places. fists of steel are pretty op as well, its a get out of jail free card for heavies who have made a bad positioning decision with no downsides.

this thread

http://i.imgur.com/adw7FNW.gif

crossbow is op but it made the game better so idgaf

razorback is only really op in highlander because the ruleset makes sniper crazy strong and spys already weak as balls. a spy buff in general is probably more warranted since he was intended originally as a check to heavy/engie/sniper but hes so garbage that hes only an option once in a blue moon.

but HL is a bad reference for balance for both pubs and comp because the lack of class switching means that a ton of items, particularly for heavy, engie, and scout, are totally fine because they make up for being forced to run the class in places where theyre suboptimal.

also on crossbow, it adds a ton of depth and skill to medic. and the passive reload and uber building is great. if it were to get any nerf itd have to be a survivability thing (like it already is because you lose needles but i mean moreso), like not getting the bonus passive heals when your target is damaged, or lower passive heals in general or something.

how the fuck is sandvich op? lmao

datdrummerguy your brain is very large :)

you're brain dead if you think the machina isn't broken and overpowered

Razorback is still a top tier weapon in pubs just because the other sniper secondaries are broken or useless. DDS and Camper are better, but the SMGs are pointless and jarate is meh.

idk it still seems kinda OP

bonk is broken as shit if reimu is to be believed too. He explained it like 3 years ago as:

the general idea was you could use it to wrap around a choke risk free and either draw back a player for a 1v1 or 2 players and let your team take an easy push way too consistently

machina is just better than stock but piercing is kind of a fun mechanic idk

xbow is balanced for the game and adds skill, but is better than anything else in the slot

ya but running spy in 6s to counter a sniper is retarded anyways so it really doesnt matter

yeah gotta watch out for those tracers and not being able to noscope in 6's

The only viable secondary for sniper in pubs other than razorback is probably the cozy camper, since the passive regen and no flinch is amazing. Even then, the other team could have 3 spies, and you get fucked without razorback even faster. With RB you can at least play around one of the 4 sentries on your team to survive the spy. But if you really want to discuss OP weapons in terms of pubs, idk man, heavy, kritz, and stickies are pretty op since the majority of players are less than ideal.

In 6s it's not needed because spy is seen like 5% of the time, and if he targets you instead of the medic he's terrible - so you should probably be running the cozy camper. But really, running RB vs camper doesn't make too huge of a difference in 6s overall, since you're likely to switch off as soon as you get a pick, and you don't have to deal with heavy/wrangler spam, or flames.

So in pubs, HL, and 6s, 2/3 of that have razorback being top tier with only one other secondary being a close contest (not counting DDS in HL since that's incredibly broken), and in the third it doesn't matter much which you pick.

e: A better way to put all this would be: You have a passive secondary that, in any organized setting (or even pubs), removes the possibility of you dying to your hard counter, and the only other options that are viable are the passive secondaries that help you win against more skilled players (DDS), and that help you aim better.

DDS is also broken in 6s. DDS is arguably the most broken unlock in any server where someone is playing sniper >10% of the time since it removes the only useful counter to sniper and makes him stronger to his other soft counter of scout :(

You can make your medic tanky, what it isn't supposed to be, and there's literally no reason to use any other heavy secondary

the problem with the sniper secondaries is they started out with a weapon that makes enemies take mini crits and made other unlocks equal to that

i would easily say that dds and jarate can do more in pubs as well, and the latter in 6s now that its legal. even if you say RB beats jarate/cozy its certainly not by an exception margin. the only options that really stand out as weak are the two SMGs.

like im not arguing that its well designed or anything cuz its a passive that encourages tunnel visioning. but its more stupid than gamebreaking in any way. id much rather see spy get buffed in general, and if he were id imagine a nerf would be much less necessary.