The problem isn't that this game is designed to be casual. Most esport games aren't designed with it being an esport as priority. Most esport games are actually designed to be play casually and those games just so happens to have a fan base that likes to be the game competitively. If anyone honestly thinks that valve legitimately designed CSGO with it being an esport as a priority when pistols are still OP, adding the R8, nerfing the awp, ect. you're a dumbass. A casual game can be a esport. EX: super smash bros, tetris, fucking FIFA. The biggest problem is that we are not relevant. To be a esport we need money and an audience which we have little of both. Then if you want to get even deeper you can talk to about the balancing which is even a bigger discussion.
MMs release struck out to me as having a deliberately lenient ruleset so they could adjust things from a blank slate. not that they should really need it, but at the time of release you had 3 different major 6s leagues which all had different banlists so from an outsider perspective it looks like people cant decide on what is acceptable or not. a lot of the weapon changes made with MyM were in the right direction even, just so minor that they didnt really make much of a difference outside of a few changes.
really the biggest issue is how long it takes though. im sure plenty of MM data is fucked with how poor the ranking system is in the first place. id rather not wait for major content patches for changes to go through.
really the biggest issue is how long it takes though. im sure plenty of MM data is fucked with how poor the ranking system is in the first place. id rather not wait for major content patches for changes to go through.
MenachemMR_SLINThey've already created matchmaking -- what other indication do you need? They're creating the very thing that we want, but people aren't patient enough to wait for them to continue iterating on the game. People seem to want instant changes NOW but these things take time.
I addressed this above. They act like they came up with the idea of competitive TF2 and are developing it like so. They've started acknowledging that TF2 could be a comp game; not that it already is one.
MR_SLINWhat can we do to help? Play the matchmaking game and give open feedback on the forums. Discuss things as a community. Raise awareness about issues and advocate for change. This is how you make changes in a world where you are not the developers of the game.I thought I covered that too. There's no indication that Valve reads anything that isn't /r/tf2 outside of this hilariously bittersweet post where he only posted to let us know Valve is ignoring what we want and patching our fix.
Gotcha. I'd agree with both of your points, but I also mentioned that in my piece that they're fully aware that their participation in the discussion would change the nature of the discussion. We may never see them participating in the forums.
They've already created matchmaking -- what other indication do you need? They're creating the very thing that we want, but people aren't patient enough to wait for them to continue iterating on the game. People seem to want instant changes NOW but these things take time.[/quote]
I addressed this above. They act like they came up with the idea of competitive TF2 and are developing it like so. They've started acknowledging that TF2 could be a comp game; not that it already is one.
[quote=MR_SLIN]What can we do to help? Play the matchmaking game and give open feedback on the forums. Discuss things as a community. Raise awareness about issues and advocate for change. This is how you make changes in a world where you are not the developers of the game.[/quote]
I thought I covered that too. There's no indication that Valve reads anything that isn't /r/tf2 outside of [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/post/613209/tf2-needs-optimization]this hilariously bittersweet post[/url] where he only posted to let us know Valve is ignoring what we want and patching our fix.[/quote]
Gotcha. I'd agree with both of your points, but I also mentioned that in my piece that they're fully aware that their participation in the discussion would change the nature of the discussion. We may never see them participating in the forums.
the301stspartanDont u guys get bored of these threads? Some nerd has money left over, flies to valve, they don't give a shit and don't tell him anything new but he feels like the next b4nny competitive spokesperson so he lets us know that valve don't care but with a twist, then there's 10 pages of the same "future of competitive tf2" thread that makes up like half of tf.tv now and in the end, the whole thing gets 0 attention from valve and everyone forgot their own posts by the time the next thread happens and they post the same things there.
http://www.aradani.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/wotlogo.jpg
[img] http://www.aradani.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/wotlogo.jpg[/img]
clckwrkpost #25
You're not wrong. I agree with you that they're starting from the beginning and that it may take them a long time to build out the competitive game. That said, I think it's also important for you to disclose that you're one of the impatient players who is unwilling to wait for Valve to take their time developing the game. It's totally reasonable to not want to wait for Valve to build this foundation and build this house, and I can understand why you've moved on to other games.
I think that Valve is considering a younger generation of players that still have time for Team Fortress to become a larger esport and they want to do it right. That's why they're starting over. In their defense, a huge portion of the TF2 community has not yet discovered competitive TF2 so in that sense they are basically in kindergarten and Team Fortress is just a baby of an esport.
You're not wrong. I agree with you that they're starting from the beginning and that it may take them a long time to build out the competitive game. That said, I think it's also important for you to disclose that you're one of the impatient players who is unwilling to wait for Valve to take their time developing the game. It's totally reasonable to not want to wait for Valve to build this foundation and build this house, and I can understand why you've moved on to other games.
I think that Valve is considering a younger generation of players that still have time for Team Fortress to become a larger esport and they want to do it right. That's why they're starting over. In their defense, a huge portion of the TF2 community has not yet discovered competitive TF2 so in that sense they are basically in kindergarten and Team Fortress is just a baby of an esport.
MR_SLINThe question is -- are people in this community willing to wait for those changes? Many people don't like playing matchmaking in its current state, and if people don't like playing matchmaking then Valve has less reason to continue developing it. I'd urge the community to play matchmaking and then voice their opinions on it openly so that everyone can hear and we can discuss it as a community.
this is where it starts to become silly.
1. people have made countless big lists of things to improve in matchmaking. i shouldn't need to go and collect how many threads we've made on "what MM needs to change to be better" and "how to fix MM?", it's insane how much it gets asked.
2. given that it seems 1 isn't good enough, are you suggesting that to get anything done we need to cry as hard as we can and spam the forums with our opinions to get them noticed?
this is where it starts to become silly.
1. people have made countless big lists of things to improve in matchmaking. i shouldn't need to go and collect how many threads we've made on "what MM needs to change to be better" and "how to fix MM?", it's insane how much it gets asked.
2. given that it seems 1 isn't good enough, are you suggesting that to get anything done we need to cry as hard as we can and spam the forums with our opinions to get them noticed?
There are two major things you are leaving out that the community has more control over than getting Valve to push competitive. The thing people really need to do is address how many players feel the game is stale and its lack of an ability to get people to watch despite being one of the most popular games on Steam.
There really needs to be a change in how competitive is played. Both to keep people playing interested and in getting people interested in actually watching the game. There is great fun to be had in competitive TF2 but for many people it lacks the variety to keep them interested. Hence why you see high level players take seasons off, play highlander, drop to a lower division to play with weird unlocks or finally just leave for Overwatch.
After talking to different people on twitch in TF2 streams many just people aren't interested in watching the matches get played. They know competitive exists but they don't watch because most of the time they think its boring. If a format is found that is both acceptable to players and more interesting to viewers you'd be much further along. Valve isn't a charity, they aren't going to heavily invest in competitive TF2 if they don't see viewers which they can get enough advertising dollars from. Sure maybe its not the pinnacle you feel the current 6s meta is but you'd still be able to play your favorite game in a healthier state than it is now, and the community will have more say in how to proceed in this than waiting on Valve to make the changes you want.
There really needs to be a change in how competitive is played. Both to keep people playing interested and in getting people interested in actually watching the game. There is great fun to be had in competitive TF2 but for many people it lacks the variety to keep them interested. Hence why you see high level players take seasons off, play highlander, drop to a lower division to play with weird unlocks or finally just leave for Overwatch.
After talking to different people on twitch in TF2 streams many just people aren't interested in watching the matches get played. They know competitive exists but they don't watch because most of the time they think its boring. If a format is found that is both acceptable to players and more interesting to viewers you'd be much further along. Valve isn't a charity, they aren't going to heavily invest in competitive TF2 if they don't see viewers which they can get enough advertising dollars from. Sure maybe its not the pinnacle you feel the current 6s meta is but you'd still be able to play your favorite game in a healthier state than it is now, and the community will have more say in how to proceed in this than waiting on Valve to make the changes you want.
Shounic1. people have made countless big lists of things to improve in matchmaking. i shouldn't need to go and collect how many threads we've made on "what MM needs to change to be better" and "how to fix MM?", it's insane how much it gets asked.
2. given that it seems 1 isn't good enough, are you suggesting that to get anything done we need to cry as hard as we can and spam the forums with our opinions to get them noticed?
Good points.
1) I think that if we want TF2 to be supported by the developers, we have to relinquish some control over the game. This means that we have to be willing to give feedback and then have that feedback be rejected. After all, if the developers are the ones creating the game, then they call the shots and we just have to trust them with the future of their game.
2) Since they're the ones calling the shots, we need to let them work on it in their own time. We can't rush them. What if they're considering your feedback and think that it's valid but in order for them to execute on that feedback it just takes time? A Twitch example would be HTML5. HTML5 streams are a great idea but you can't switch from flash streams to HTML5 streams overnight. People keep talking about HTML5, HTML5 was coming the entire time, but the engineers just needed time to make it.
3) Definitely cry as hard and as loud as you can but also realize that there's such thing as the "silent majority" and the "vocal minority". The vocal minority may be loud but the majority of people might disagree and are simply saying nothing. (link to urban dictionary which happens to give a product-focused explanation of this lol). Some people might like the thing that you don't like, they're just not taking the time to voice their opinions.
2. given that it seems 1 isn't good enough, are you suggesting that to get anything done we need to cry as hard as we can and spam the forums with our opinions to get them noticed?[/quote]
Good points.
1) I think that if we want TF2 to be supported by the developers, we have to relinquish some control over the game. This means that we have to be willing to give feedback and then have that feedback be rejected. After all, if the developers are the ones creating the game, then they call the shots and we just have to trust them with the future of their game.
2) Since they're the ones calling the shots, we need to let them work on it in their own time. We can't rush them. What if they're considering your feedback and think that it's valid but in order for them to execute on that feedback it just takes time? A Twitch example would be HTML5. HTML5 streams are a great idea but you can't switch from flash streams to HTML5 streams overnight. People keep talking about HTML5, HTML5 was coming the entire time, but the engineers just needed time to make it.
3) Definitely cry as hard and as loud as you can but also realize that there's such thing as the "silent majority" and the "vocal minority". The vocal minority may be loud but the majority of people might disagree and are simply saying nothing. ([url=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vocal%20minority]link[/url] to urban dictionary which happens to give a product-focused explanation of this lol). Some people might like the thing that you don't like, they're just not taking the time to voice their opinions.
One problem I have with having class limits is that TF2 classes are unlike other class based games.
Unlike OW and MOBA's, each class in tf2 can have multiple and very distinct play styles that would account for multiple heroes in a MOBA setting. Having a looser class limit would allow greater experimentation with different weapons/class combinations.
The bigger problem seems to be when players stack a specific play style vs stacking a class
Would one stock demo + 1 grenade launcher/shield demo be okay?
Yeah probably
Would 2 stock demos be okay?
Probably not....
1 stock engy vs 1 gunslinger engy?
Should be fine
2 stock engies?
Probably not...
This is also why using OW and MOBA's as an excuse to push class limits is simply wrong.
Unlike OW and MOBA's, each class in tf2 can have multiple and very distinct play styles that would account for multiple heroes in a MOBA setting. Having a looser class limit would allow greater experimentation with different weapons/class combinations.
The bigger problem seems to be when players stack a specific play style vs stacking a class
Would one stock demo + 1 grenade launcher/shield demo be okay?
Yeah probably
Would 2 stock demos be okay?
Probably not....
1 stock engy vs 1 gunslinger engy?
Should be fine
2 stock engies?
Probably not...
This is also why using OW and MOBA's as an excuse to push class limits is simply wrong.
remember when lange quit the game because he said valve didn't care about the game. That was like 2 years ago or something. The truth is they probably care but "they" is a team of like 4 people and they aren't good at the game, don't really know what they're doing, and aren't large enough to make a big difference. Which is why our best hope is just a new tf2, a sequel with a big dev team and a competitive-minded approach
Mate your main argument here seems to be "Valve need an indefinite amount of time to do whatever they're doing, so just play and give feedback if you like, but I can understsnd if you don't".
That has veen the status quo forever so if all you're saying is that you're fine with that situation, what the hell did you start this humongous thread for?
That has veen the status quo forever so if all you're saying is that you're fine with that situation, what the hell did you start this humongous thread for?
the301stspartanMate your main argument here seems to be "Valve need an indefinite amount of time to do whatever they're doing, so just play and give feedback if you like, but I can understsnd if you don't".
That has veen the status quo forever so if all you're saying is that you're fine with that situation, what the hell did you start this humongous thread for?
It's an article on the current state of TF2 and you're kind of right that it hasn't changed much over the years. Competitive TF2 in general hasn't made as much progress as we would have liked since its inception, so the state of TF2 won't change much from year to year. The main difference between the state of TF2 today and the state of TF2 four years ago is that the developers are actively building a competitive game for us.
This article also comes as a response to the outrage regarding Sigafoo. People were disagreeing with his desire to run a non-standard comp TF2 format, and they were wondering why he was choosing to do that when the competitive format was decided long ago. My point was that the developers of our esport haven't figured out the final competitive format for comp TF2, so he's just trying to do them a solid and we should all be supportive.
In addition, people are urging Valve to invest money into the game but I'm trying to tell the community that it's pointless to invest money in a game when your competitive format has not yet been settled. Once the competitive format is settled it will make more sense to invest money into the scene.
That has veen the status quo forever so if all you're saying is that you're fine with that situation, what the hell did you start this humongous thread for?[/quote]
It's an article on the current state of TF2 and you're kind of right that it hasn't changed much over the years. Competitive TF2 in general hasn't made as much progress as we would have liked since its inception, so the state of TF2 won't change much from year to year. The main difference between the state of TF2 today and the state of TF2 four years ago is that the developers are actively building a competitive game for us.
This article also comes as a response to the outrage regarding Sigafoo. People were disagreeing with his desire to run a non-standard comp TF2 format, and they were wondering why he was choosing to do that when the competitive format was decided long ago. My point was that the developers of our esport haven't figured out the final competitive format for comp TF2, so he's just trying to do them a solid and we should all be supportive.
In addition, people are urging Valve to invest money into the game but I'm trying to tell the community that it's pointless to invest money in a game when your competitive format has not yet been settled. Once the competitive format is settled it will make more sense to invest money into the scene.
MR_SLIN
I think that if we want TF2 to be supported by the developers, we have to relinquish some control over the game. This means that we have to be willing to give feedback and then have that feedback be rejected. After all, if the developers are the ones creating the game, then they call the shots and we just have to trust them with the future of their game.
To me you said that Valve can't be expected to participate in any kind of dialog. To Shounic, you're saying there will be some kind of back and forth between "proposal, rejection." How are you distinguishing between Valve completely ignoring the comp community (i.e.,what Valve is doing) and Valve actually rejecting what we ask of them?
I think that if we want TF2 to be supported by the developers, we have to relinquish some control over the game. This means that we have to be willing to give feedback and then have that feedback be rejected. After all, if the developers are the ones creating the game, then they call the shots and we just have to trust them with the future of their game.
[/quote]
To me you said that Valve can't be expected to participate in any kind of dialog. To Shounic, you're saying there will be some kind of back and forth between "proposal, rejection." How are you distinguishing between Valve completely ignoring the comp community (i.e.,what Valve is doing) and Valve actually rejecting what we ask of them?
MenachemTo me you said that Valve can't be expected to participate in any kind of dialog. To Shounic, you're saying there will be some kind of back and forth between "proposal, rejection." How are you distinguishing between Valve completely ignoring the comp community (i.e.,what Valve is doing) and Valve actually rejecting what we ask of them?
I think one thing that may have gotten overlooked in my opinion piece is our ongoing relationship with the developers thus far. I think that the Valve visits were more than just a flight to Seattle -- they were building bridges between our community and the developers. While you guys might not see the bridges that were built, I can confirm that we definitely have a stronger relationship with the developers today than ever before. The issue that I also tried to address is that we can't reveal the nature of those relationships for fear of burning those bridges. If the developers tell Sigafoo something in confidence and he reveals that secret, they will never tell him anything ever again so while we didn't sign any non-disclosure agreements, we definitely want to keep this relationship going.
Unfortunately the only indication that you have that the developers are listening is our word, and every person who has visited Valve to date has told the community that they're reading the forums, listening to our streams, and watching our communities. If you don't believe us then okay, but don't expect an official notice from Valve saying "HEY WE'RE READING YOUR FORUMS" since we all know that that is not how they operate. I think that a forum post from Jill should be evidence enough but it seems like it is not.
As far as how the actual feedback mechanism works, just pay attention to their actions and not their words (or lack thereof). If they're creating matchmaking, that means that they think competitive TF2 is a good idea. If they're giving Spy more movement speed, that means that they're trying to make Spy stronger. If they're punishing people for abandoning matchmaking, that means that they're listening to our feedback about how bad the matchmaking abandonment was.
This is all feedback that they can gather from conversations within the community as well as player data. If 30% of matchmaking games end in abandonment AND everyone's complaining about it on the forums, it's probably a big problem. If the casual community really thinks that pyro is underpowered, they'll create an update to the class that fixes that.
I think one thing that may have gotten overlooked in my opinion piece is our ongoing relationship with the developers thus far. I think that the Valve visits were more than just a flight to Seattle -- they were building bridges between our community and the developers. While you guys might not see the bridges that were built, I can confirm that we definitely have a stronger relationship with the developers today than ever before. The issue that I also tried to address is that we can't reveal the nature of those relationships for fear of burning those bridges. If the developers tell Sigafoo something in confidence and he reveals that secret, they will never tell him anything ever again so while we didn't sign any non-disclosure agreements, we definitely want to keep this relationship going.
Unfortunately the only indication that you have that the developers are listening is our word, and every person who has visited Valve to date has told the community that they're reading the forums, listening to our streams, and watching our communities. If you don't believe us then okay, but don't expect an official notice from Valve saying "HEY WE'RE READING YOUR FORUMS" since we all know that that is not how they operate. I think that a forum post from Jill should be evidence enough but it seems like it is not.
As far as how the actual feedback mechanism works, just pay attention to their actions and not their words (or lack thereof). If they're creating matchmaking, that means that they think competitive TF2 is a good idea. If they're giving Spy more movement speed, that means that they're trying to make Spy stronger. If they're punishing people for abandoning matchmaking, that means that they're listening to our feedback about how bad the matchmaking abandonment was.
This is all feedback that they can gather from conversations within the community as well as player data. If 30% of matchmaking games end in abandonment AND everyone's complaining about it on the forums, it's probably a big problem. If the casual community really thinks that pyro is underpowered, they'll create an update to the class that fixes that.
its honestly shocking seeing what your opinions are ! to be honest as hard and annoying as it must be working on tf2 due to its age and all the mess of a code and variables it exist, when they created MM they had the hard part already figured out by the competitive community (the competitive community already know what works what it doesnt works, period) they didn´t had to trial new things, look for feedback, and constantly readjusting settings or code. Its all out there already.
Let´s say 85% of the playerbase are casual players and 15% competitive, if they managed to support the existing 15% competitive while grabing 15% of the casuals it would´ve been an overwelming success ... but no they actualy managed to allienate 99% of the playerbase, when they were aiming to the 100%.. Stop thinking the tf2 competitive scene will have an amazing growth, it will never happen.
Can´t wait to see what the new iteration of MM will bring to the table but if you think about it, the only thing they did till now was to put 6 players vs other 6 in a server a medal with a rank and some progress bars that dont always work ...
its hard for me to support this and keep my hopes up
Let´s say 85% of the playerbase are casual players and 15% competitive, if they managed to support the existing 15% competitive while grabing 15% of the casuals it would´ve been an overwelming success ... but no they actualy managed to allienate 99% of the playerbase, when they were aiming to the 100%.. Stop thinking the tf2 competitive scene will have an amazing growth, it will never happen.
Can´t wait to see what the new iteration of MM will bring to the table but if you think about it, the only thing they did till now was to put 6 players vs other 6 in a server a medal with a rank and some progress bars that dont always work ...
its hard for me to support this and keep my hopes up
MR_SLINthe301stspartanMate your main argument here seems to be "Valve need an indefinite amount of time to do whatever they're doing, so just play and give feedback if you like, but I can understsnd if you don't".It's an article on the current state of TF2 and you're kind of right that it hasn't changed much over the years. Competitive TF2 in general hasn't made as much progress as we would have liked since its inception, so the state of TF2 won't change much from year to year. The main difference between the state of TF2 today and the state of TF2 four years ago is that the developers are actively building a competitive game for us.
That has veen the status quo forever so if all you're saying is that you're fine with that situation, what the hell did you start this humongous thread for?
This article also comes as a response to the outrage regarding Sigafoo. People were disagreeing with his desire to run a non-standard comp TF2 format, and they were wondering why he was choosing to do that when the competitive format was decided long ago. My point was that the developers of our esport haven't figured out the final competitive format for comp TF2, so he's just trying to do them a solid and we should all be supportive.
In addition, people are urging Valve to invest money into the game but I'm trying to tell the community that it's pointless to invest money in a game when your competitive format has not yet been settled. Once the competitive format is settled it will make more sense to invest money into the scene.
Not to deride your post but these arguments have been discusswd a trillion times before and the sigafoo sotuation is still being discussed in its own humongous thread... and the fact is that even with the most generous assumptions that all you say is true, the chance that sigafoo's whateveritis will be catalyst to a future positive change of any kind (except players and viewees having some fun during it) that wouldn't gave taken place without it is ludicrously small. This is why people are upset and whether this is justified or not is best discussed in its own thread imo.
I mean I don't mind you starting this again if you enjoy the discussion, but if you believe that something new might actually come from it, I urge you to read trough all the previous similar threads of the past 500 years and see if anything you want to mention hasn't been discussed before.
That has veen the status quo forever so if all you're saying is that you're fine with that situation, what the hell did you start this humongous thread for?[/quote]
It's an article on the current state of TF2 and you're kind of right that it hasn't changed much over the years. Competitive TF2 in general hasn't made as much progress as we would have liked since its inception, so the state of TF2 won't change much from year to year. The main difference between the state of TF2 today and the state of TF2 four years ago is that the developers are actively building a competitive game for us.
This article also comes as a response to the outrage regarding Sigafoo. People were disagreeing with his desire to run a non-standard comp TF2 format, and they were wondering why he was choosing to do that when the competitive format was decided long ago. My point was that the developers of our esport haven't figured out the final competitive format for comp TF2, so he's just trying to do them a solid and we should all be supportive.
In addition, people are urging Valve to invest money into the game but I'm trying to tell the community that it's pointless to invest money in a game when your competitive format has not yet been settled. Once the competitive format is settled it will make more sense to invest money into the scene.[/quote]
Not to deride your post but these arguments have been discusswd a trillion times before and the sigafoo sotuation is still being discussed in its own humongous thread... and the fact is that even with the most generous assumptions that all you say is true, the chance that sigafoo's whateveritis will be catalyst to a future positive change of any kind (except players and viewees having some fun during it) that wouldn't gave taken place without it is ludicrously small. This is why people are upset and whether this is justified or not is best discussed in its own thread imo.
I mean I don't mind you starting this again if you enjoy the discussion, but if you believe that something new might actually come from it, I urge you to read trough all the previous similar threads of the past 500 years and see if anything you want to mention hasn't been discussed before.
mousiopeits honestly shocking seeing what your opinions are ! to be honest as hard and annoying as it must be working on tf2 due to its age and all the mess of a code and variables it exist, when they created MM they had the hard part already figured out by the competitive community (the competitive community already know what works what it doesnt works, period) they didn´t had to trial new things, look for feedback, and constantly readjusting settings or code. Its all out there already.
I used to think the same way. We spent 9 years developing and balancing our version of competitive TF2. Why wouldn't they just copy us?
Comp TF2 players are players that are dissatisfied with the casual version of TF2. These are the most hardcore players who have thousands of hours in the game. While you might think that we know what is best, there is still disagreement within the competitive TF2 community on the best format. 6v6 and 9v9 HL are the two major formats, and while there seems to be a general consensus that 6v6 is the best competitive format, there are more 9v9 players worldwide which is a big signal that something is wrong with 6v6.
Once you step out of the competitive community there are also a large number of casual players that don't seem to enjoy our version of 6v6. Thus, the developers are trying to reconcile that and create a competitive game that is fun for everyone -- pubbers, 9v9 players, and 6v6 players. Rather than replicating our game they're choosing to start over from scratch and that is why you see a 6v6 matchmaking game with no class limits and no weapon bans. This is probably not going to be the final version of the game but it's the only good starting point.
I used to think the same way. We spent 9 years developing and balancing our version of competitive TF2. Why wouldn't they just copy us?
Comp TF2 players are players that are dissatisfied with the casual version of TF2. These are the most hardcore players who have thousands of hours in the game. While you might think that we know what is best, there is still disagreement within the competitive TF2 community on the best format. 6v6 and 9v9 HL are the two major formats, and while there seems to be a general consensus that 6v6 is the best competitive format, there are more 9v9 players worldwide which is a big signal that something is wrong with 6v6.
Once you step out of the competitive community there are also a large number of casual players that don't seem to enjoy our version of 6v6. Thus, the developers are trying to reconcile that and create a competitive game that is fun for everyone -- pubbers, 9v9 players, and 6v6 players. Rather than replicating our game they're choosing to start over from scratch and that is why you see a 6v6 matchmaking game with no class limits and no weapon bans. This is probably not going to be the final version of the game but it's the only good starting point.
the301stspartanI mean I don't mind you starting this again if you enjoy the discussion, but if you believe that something new might actually come from it, I urge you to read trough all the previous similar threads of the past 500 years and see if anything you want to mention hasn't been discussed before.
I mean you've been around for a long time so the conversation might be boring to you but I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have every so often since it's good to take the pulse of the game throughout the year. I also don't think that anyone in their right mind browses through old TFTV threads but maybe I'm wrong LOL
I mean you've been around for a long time so the conversation might be boring to you but I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have every so often since it's good to take the pulse of the game throughout the year. I also don't think that anyone in their right mind browses through old TFTV threads but maybe I'm wrong LOL
Out of interest, when members of the community raise the communication issue directly to Valve ( I presume they have emailed or spoken to various members), what kind of response do they get? Does Valve acknowledge their lack of communication? Is it possible to ever get a live discussion with them about these issues at all?
I personally think that until the communication issue is eased, there will be very little harmony between comp community and Valve, and probably little progress.
Regarding why a lot of the casual community dislikes the comp format, why is that? I mean, Overwatch has a 6 v 6 mode with similar game types, and it's pretty popular. Is it more the difficulty in actually getting good, or the mode of 6 v 6 itself?
I personally think that until the communication issue is eased, there will be very little harmony between comp community and Valve, and probably little progress.
Regarding why a lot of the casual community dislikes the comp format, why is that? I mean, Overwatch has a 6 v 6 mode with similar game types, and it's pretty popular. Is it more the difficulty in actually getting good, or the mode of 6 v 6 itself?
MR_SLINmousiopeits honestly shocking seeing what your opinions are ! to be honest as hard and annoying as it must be working on tf2 due to its age and all the mess of a code and variables it exist, when they created MM they had the hard part already figured out by the competitive community (the competitive community already know what works what it doesnt works, period) they didn´t had to trial new things, look for feedback, and constantly readjusting settings or code. Its all out there already.I used to think the same way. We spent 9 years developing and balancing our version of competitive TF2. Why wouldn't they just copy us?
Comp TF2 players are players that are dissatisfied with the casual version of TF2. These are the most hardcore players who have thousands of hours in the game. While you might think that we know what is best, there is still disagreement within the competitive TF2 community on the best format. 6v6 and 9v9 HL are the two major formats, and while there seems to be a general consensus that 6v6 is the best competitive format, there are more 9v9 players worldwide which is a big signal that something is wrong with 6v6. Thus, the developers are trying to reconcile that and create a competitive game that is fun for everyone.
they can´t aim for everyone, they have to choose one, they will never be able to please everyone.
and the casual players arent dissatisfied? when will koth_badlands with 24 players with random crits be a pleasant casual experience to anyone ? its like playing a DM server with random crits and 24 ppl ... is this what a casual game of tf2 is now ?
I used to think the same way. We spent 9 years developing and balancing our version of competitive TF2. Why wouldn't they just copy us?
Comp TF2 players are players that are dissatisfied with the casual version of TF2. These are the most hardcore players who have thousands of hours in the game. While you might think that we know what is best, there is still disagreement within the competitive TF2 community on the best format. 6v6 and 9v9 HL are the two major formats, and while there seems to be a general consensus that 6v6 is the best competitive format, there are more 9v9 players worldwide which is a big signal that something is wrong with 6v6. Thus, the developers are trying to reconcile that and create a competitive game that is fun for everyone.[/quote]
they can´t aim for everyone, they have to choose one, they will never be able to please everyone.
and the casual players arent dissatisfied? when will koth_badlands with 24 players with random crits be a pleasant casual experience to anyone ? its like playing a DM server with random crits and 24 ppl ... is this what a casual game of tf2 is now ?
I think one thing that may have gotten overlooked in my opinion piece is our ongoing relationship with the developers thus far. I think that the Valve visits were more than just a flight to Seattle -- they were building bridges between our community and the developers. While you guys might not see the bridges that were built, I can confirm that we definitely have a stronger relationship with the developers today than ever before. The issue that I also tried to address is that we can't reveal the nature of those relationships for fear of burning those bridges. If the developers tell Sigafoo something in confidence and he reveals that secret, they will never tell him anything ever again so while we didn't sign any non-disclosure agreements, we definitely want to keep this relationship going.
Unfortunately the only indication that you have that the developers are listening is our word, and every person who has visited Valve to date has told the community that they're reading the forums, listening to our streams, and watching our communities. If you don't believe us then okay, but don't expect an official notice from Valve saying "HEY WE'RE READING YOUR FORUMS" since we all know that that is not how they operate. I think that a forum post from Jill should be evidence enough but it seems like it is not.
And sorry but this is a borderline heinous attitude and simply not how the real world works.
Firstly, of course nobody believes this. There is NO LOGICAL reason to believe it. Secondly, there is obviously no negative consequence to transparency and- wait this has been said a million times before and its 100% irrelevant because no matter whether tf2 illuminati valve visiting evangelists actually know the secret machinations of the developers but are only allowed to spread the holy word according to their wishes, nobody gives a rat's ass because all that matters is what's written in patch notes. The hell do I care whether nothing happens for 10 years but you know valve's secret pillow talk or nothing happens and you don't? Disclosing EVERYTHING they are doing in a comprehensive , official and 100% committal fashion to the community could possibly, maybe be a way to slightly increase some people's patience about nothing happening and maybe improve communication a little bit, but that ship has sailed and it won't happen and nobody cares if valve have privately said anything to anyone because everyone only cares about what they visibly do, which is nothing .
Unfortunately the only indication that you have that the developers are listening is our word, and every person who has visited Valve to date has told the community that they're reading the forums, listening to our streams, and watching our communities. If you don't believe us then okay, but don't expect an official notice from Valve saying "HEY WE'RE READING YOUR FORUMS" since we all know that that is not how they operate. I think that a forum post from Jill should be evidence enough but it seems like it is not.
[/quote]
And sorry but this is a borderline heinous attitude and simply not how the real world works.
Firstly, of course nobody believes this. There is NO LOGICAL reason to believe it. Secondly, there is obviously no negative consequence to transparency and- wait [b]this has been said a million times before and its 100% irrelevant[/b] because no matter whether tf2 illuminati valve visiting evangelists actually know the secret machinations of the developers but are only allowed to spread the holy word according to their wishes, [b]nobody gives a rat's ass[/b] because all that matters is what's written in patch notes. The hell do I care whether nothing happens for 10 years but you know valve's secret pillow talk or nothing happens and you don't? Disclosing EVERYTHING they are doing in a comprehensive , official and 100% committal fashion to the community could possibly, maybe be a way to slightly increase some people's patience about nothing happening and maybe improve communication a little bit, but that ship has sailed and it won't happen and nobody cares if valve have privately said anything to anyone because everyone only cares about what they [b]visibly do[/b], which is nothing .
rocketslayi remember kaidus talking on his stream about how he thought it was "cringey" or whatever that some people in tf2 were desperate for this game to become a big esport and he wanted the community to be more like the smash community or something and accept that we're small game (?)
I think the real cringe is (sorry in advance) that a lot of people really think this game is going to take off through some sort of action on valve's or our part. We have this thread 2-3x a year and the same points are brought up which are
- people would know about 6s if it was advertised and easy to get into
- the game would be popular if enough people knew about 6s
- ∴ valve advertising 6s would cause the game to become popular
but I think all of those are flawed for multiple reasons. The first assumes that 6s is obscure or unknown, which is likely true on a large scale, but 6s is definitely a known thing to anyone who plays tf2 at this point. Not even talking about MM, most players are aware that the best players in the game play it competitively in a 6s format and most oft those could pretty easily find this place if they wanted to.
The second assumes that people aren't getting into 6s because they aren't aware of it, rather than because they lack interest. This is where I think most people in this community have trouble understanding why it isn't popular. It isn't because 6s is unknown, it isn't because 6s is a flawed format, it isn't even because 6s is bad or unappealing. Most players just aren't interested in the sort of game we are. The average tf2 player simply doesn't want to play a game like tf2 in a serious way. Trying to make comp more appealing or more accessible only helps if people have a genuine interest, but the wider tf2 community simply doesn't.
That said, I don't think that that's a permanent or unfixable problem, but trying to make 6s popular by name dropping it everywhere isn't going to do anything unless people who hear about 6s also want to play it. There's probably more than a few reasons people don't want to play it, but I think the biggest is that it simply wasn't what people picked up tf2 for. People start playing tf2 as a casual pub game and grow into the comp side of it. People start playing MOBAs or CS as competitive games. I think that unless that critical difference is fixed, you'll see this game have the slow trickle of players it always does in both directions. Fixing it would most likely require a large ad campaign to repaint the game as the new competitive shooter, and that would likely be weird, untested, and alienating overall so Valve has a decent reason to not want to do it.
Valve always said they wanted the scene to grow before they support it, and the reason was because they didn't see most players having an interest. Even now, most players don't
idk
I think the real cringe is (sorry in advance) that a lot of people really think this game is going to take off through some sort of action on valve's or our part. We have this thread 2-3x a year and the same points are brought up which are
[list]
[*]people would know about 6s if it was advertised and easy to get into
[*] the game would be popular if enough people knew about 6s
[*] ∴ valve advertising 6s would cause the game to become popular
[/list]
but I think all of those are flawed for multiple reasons. The first assumes that 6s is obscure or unknown, which is likely true on a large scale, but 6s is definitely a known thing to anyone who plays tf2 at this point. Not even talking about MM, most players are aware that the best players in the game play it competitively in a 6s format and most oft those could pretty easily find this place if they wanted to.
The second assumes that people aren't getting into 6s because they aren't aware of it, rather than because they lack interest. This is where I think most people in this community have trouble understanding why it isn't popular. It isn't because 6s is unknown, it isn't because 6s is a flawed format, it isn't even because 6s is bad or unappealing. Most players just aren't interested in the sort of game we are. The average tf2 player simply doesn't want to play a game like tf2 in a serious way. Trying to make comp more appealing or more accessible only helps if people have a genuine interest, but the wider tf2 community simply doesn't.
That said, I don't think that that's a permanent or unfixable problem, but trying to make 6s popular by name dropping it everywhere isn't going to do anything unless people who hear about 6s also want to play it. There's probably more than a few reasons people don't want to play it, but I think the biggest is that it simply wasn't what people picked up tf2 for. People [i]start[/i] playing tf2 as a casual pub game and grow into the comp side of it. People [i]start[/i] playing MOBAs or CS as competitive games. I think that unless that critical difference is fixed, you'll see this game have the slow trickle of players it always does in both directions. Fixing it would most likely require a large ad campaign to repaint the game as the new competitive shooter, and that would likely be weird, untested, and alienating overall so Valve has a decent reason to not want to do it.
Valve always said they wanted the scene to grow before they support it, and the reason was because they didn't see most players having an interest. Even now, most players don't
idk
If you consider that there’s 155 weapons in the game (not including reskins of existing weapons), it’s crazyto think that about 40% of TF2’s weapons were removed from competitive play.
Fixed that for you.
AdebisiOut of interest, when members of the community raise the communication issue directly to Valve ( I presume they have emailed or spoken to various members), what kind of response do they get? Does Valve acknowledge their lack of communication? Is it possible to ever get a live discussion with them about these issues at all?
Multiple people have had this conversation with Valve in-person (see the article for a list of people) and they've told us that they're reading the forums and silently collecting feedback. I personally have made posts on r/TF2 and gotten responses from people on the TF2 team. I think the reason that they talk to me is because I'm reasonable with my responses and respectful of their decisions.
the301stspartanDisclosing EVERYTHING they are doing in a comprehensive , official and 100% committal fashion to the community could possibly, maybe be a way to slightly increase some people's patience about nothing happening and maybe improve communication a little bit, but that ship has sailed and it won't happen and nobody cares if valve have privately said anything to anyone because everyone only cares about what they visibly do, which is nothing .
I disagree with the premise of your statement, which is that they've done nothing so far. They've created matchmaking when we wanted it, they've worked on that matchmaking system which is a 6v6 format, they've balanced weapons and classes to be better in competitive play, and they've promised that they'll address two of the nine broken classes in future updates.
If you're not paying attention or purposely trying to avoid looking for this kind of stuff, then yeah you'll miss it. But if you look for it it is there.
Also why would they 100% officially commit to competitive TF2? They don't even know if competitive TF2 will be successful. I don't think it's realistic or sensible for them to blindly throw away everything they've created just to appease the competitive community. I think it's smart for them, as businessmen, to create a game mode and then wait to see how the community reacts. If the community reacts in the same way that they did to other failed game modes, then they can just release a different game mode and try again. However, if they put something in writing like "We, Valve, will 100% throw money at TF2 until we're out of money" that would be insane.
They don't need us to be patient. The competitive community could all quit TF2 for Overwatch TODAY and Valve would be totally fine. They're more interested in creating the perfect product than they are in appeasing the vocal minority.
Multiple people have had this conversation with Valve in-person (see the article for a list of people) and they've told us that they're reading the forums and silently collecting feedback. I personally have made posts on r/TF2 and gotten responses from people on the TF2 team. I think the reason that they talk to me is because I'm reasonable with my responses and respectful of their decisions.
[quote=the301stspartan]Disclosing EVERYTHING they are doing in a comprehensive , official and 100% committal fashion to the community could possibly, maybe be a way to slightly increase some people's patience about nothing happening and maybe improve communication a little bit, but that ship has sailed and it won't happen and nobody cares if valve have privately said anything to anyone because everyone only cares about what they [b]visibly do[/b], which is nothing .[/quote]
I disagree with the premise of your statement, which is that they've done nothing so far. They've created matchmaking when we wanted it, they've worked on that matchmaking system which is a 6v6 format, they've balanced weapons and classes to be better in competitive play, and they've promised that they'll address two of the nine broken classes in future updates.
If you're not paying attention or purposely trying to avoid looking for this kind of stuff, then yeah you'll miss it. But if you look for it it is there.
Also why would they 100% officially commit to competitive TF2? They don't even know if competitive TF2 will be successful. I don't think it's realistic or sensible for them to blindly throw away everything they've created just to appease the competitive community. I think it's smart for them, as businessmen, to create a game mode and then wait to see how the community reacts. If the community reacts in the same way that they did to other failed game modes, then they can just release a different game mode and try again. However, if they put something in writing like "We, Valve, will 100% throw money at TF2 until we're out of money" that would be insane.
They don't need us to be patient. The competitive community could all quit TF2 for Overwatch TODAY and Valve would be totally fine. They're more interested in creating the perfect product than they are in appeasing the vocal minority.
while ive always wanted to see Valve support competitive tf2, ive never been hopeful of their efforts. to me true competitive tf2 only exists as it does now, a mere shadow in the community.
I'm not saying they are supposed to promise money. I didn't say they have never done anything, I said they are not visibily doing anything positive at the moment.
But dude this discussion is so pointless. You're saying thst valve are gonna do their thing and it's fine with you. Great. You're right, valve don't need anybody in the comp communty and they don't care about the knowledgeable minority, that's why their game mode is shit and may continue to be so indefinitely while they create "the perfect product" the way they see it. Similarly, nobody in this community needs valve and if everyone quit for overwatch right now like you said, everyone would be just as fine as valve. Thus, you're rendering this entire discussion utterly meaningless by acknowledging that neither party has anything to gain or expect from it.
But dude this discussion is so pointless. You're saying thst valve are gonna do their thing and it's fine with you. Great. You're right, valve don't need anybody in the comp communty and they don't care about the knowledgeable minority, that's why their game mode is shit and may continue to be so indefinitely while they create "the perfect product" the way they see it. Similarly, nobody in this community needs valve and if everyone quit for overwatch right now like you said, everyone would be just as fine as valve. Thus, you're rendering this entire discussion utterly meaningless by acknowledging that neither party has anything to gain or expect from it.
#59 yea... I did acknowledge that in the OP though.
misterslinI don't expect my post to change anything about the development of matchmaking or the development of our comeptitive game. I simply wrote this article to comfort the community in one of TF2's most vulnerable times.
Only now do I realize that I had a typo in the OP but I'll leave it unedited now :>
[quote=misterslin]I don't expect my post to change anything about the development of matchmaking or the development of our comeptitive game. I simply wrote this article to comfort the community in one of TF2's most vulnerable times.[/quote]
Only now do I realize that I had a typo in the OP but I'll leave it unedited now :>