http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/paul-ryan-says-medicare-privatization-is-on.html

Lol fuck seniors amirite

If it was all of them being violent then I'd say that all of them were not protesting peacefully. If it was a handful being violent I'd say that a handful were spoiling peaceful protests. If the police reported that they were arresting mostly members of fringe groups that had exploited the situation I'd accept their statements at face value until they were proved false.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I have some kind of Democrat/Republican bias in this. Both candidates were horrifying car crashes in a country where Obama showed that it's possible to have a unifying President by winning easily just a few years ago.

I'm not in the media, objectively by any standard these are overwhelmingly peaceful protests. I just don't see the point pretending they are something they are not.

I agree with you, and the points you raise are accurate and fair.
Schweppes is also correct in his statements and you guys do not conflict.

You also need to understand there is a double-standard at work here in this very thread and in the way everything is being portrayed on the news.

Go back in this thread and count up the number of times posters have insinuated that anyone who voted for or supports Trump is a racist. Lumping everyone into the same group (racists) because of a few is exactly the double standard and hypocritical attitude of so many posters in this thread.

It might be worth you while to completely ignore the trolls (obvious who they are) and respond to the people who want to have an actual mature discussion and not an argument. There is a difference.

you realize there's a gradient to racism right?

It isn't like every Trump supporter is wearing a hood but its pretty clear they're far less concerned with racial issues than Dem voters are. Idk how everyone gets their fee fees hurt when someone tells them they're being racist.

racism isn't a group its a character trait that is common among Trump supporters. More white people voted for Trump, more racists voted for Trump, fewer minorities did

Saying the average Trump supporter is an uneducated White guy isn't calling all of them uneducated white guys.

When people are saying Trump supporters are racist as a whole it is because they support policies that reinforce SES divide among races (IE the literal definition of racism). That's a fairly neutral thing on a national scale, since good and bad policies can be racist or not.

Its just pretty likely if you think blacks are icky that you voted for Trump because he keeps being White a good thing

I'm fully aware of the disingenuous nature of the discussion in the vast majority of the thread on various topics, I regard most of it (to borrow a phrase from many a US military misadventure) as a quagmire which is why I try to stick to relatively simple objectively provable points of fact and trimming the hyperbole here and there.

It's a fascinating topic for in depth discussion but I'm not sure the atmosphere here is conducive to a genuinely neutral and constructive exchange of viewpoints.

I don't feel like getting downvoted for saying we shouldn't discriminate against people but whatever

If you want to follow this logic black people shouldn't be allowed to move out of the cities cause they're far more violent
The US allows any religious belief to be held (1st ammendment) even if it is illegal. It doesn't become a problem until people act on those beliefs. This is and always has been the core idea of religious freedom

>First off, explain how we're not a global power

We are. By stamping our feet and ignoring the march of global economics we will give up our place because the US will no longer control most world trade.

If you want your country to matter, you have to adopt globalist thinking. Trying to be competitive as a world power when you have no economic ties to anyone else is impossible

>Next, explain how we would control China with "political and economic leverage" when they are our biggest rival

because if we stopped doing business with china, their economy would collapse. Owing someone a lot of money is just as much their problem as ours. China depends on the US to a massive degree, and that economic dependency ensures peace between the two and in the area. If the US started dropping out of international trade China would have less incentive to comply with US demands because the US wouldn't be the only thing propping up its economy.

Think of it like: If I owe the bank a trillion dollars, who's problem is it?

>So, something that's intended to keep you and I safe, is a limit on religious freedom?

Yes? It makes being Muslim harder than being Christian and treats one religious group favorably compared to another. That's pretty clearly a limit on religious freedom since the US now puts an asterisk on the 1st amendment saying "believe whatever you want (but if you believe the wrong thing you waive your right to privacy)"

>The safety of the people should never be compromised when there is a legitimate threat whose views are extremist and anti-western

some of the core ideas behind the US's founding are based on the idea that individual liberty is more important than societal security. We have several amendments that reinforce this (1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th) are pretty clearly against trading liberty for security.

This is a basic belief of the US and to rescind it would be a huge cultural change. Logical consistency would require giving up things like gun rights or freedom of the press because they can limit national security.

Fair enough. I'll certainly admit I was wrong in this sense, but I do feel like we haven't been progressing forward as much as we have in the past, presumably since Obama did a lot of stuff in the realm of foreign affairs.

We are in agreement that this forum is not a good place for all viewpoints. There are some posters here I simply refuse to respond to because they have a right/wrong mentality for whatever reason.

pls tell me trumps policy that divides the races pls
people get there fee fees hurt when you call them racist for saying things because what they said wasn't racially motivated and being labeled a racist could lose you your job your friends etc

Hey you guys I can't be the only one who is super pissed about people being like:

"my 6 year old son just asked if his 3 year old sister is going to be raped without consequence. This is the country we live in now"

or

"My 4 and 5 year old children are scared and crying"

As if you aren't using your kids as a mouthpiece for your political views or influencing their thoughts. Like any 6 year old is worried about their sister being raped because of whos president

It really makes me grateful for how my parents weren't pieces of shit and were unbiased and encouraged me to do free thinking in my youth

.

the worst part about this election is how far it has separated the two parties. things should not be this black and white and people on both sides are making it worse by refusing to believe that anybody would ever actually disagree with them.

if you, as a trump supporter, make a snide comment about someone receiving money in their account thanking them for correcting the record, call everyone that disagrees a cuck, or believe that ctr is the only reason there is hillary support on the internet, you are the problem.

if you, as a hillary supporter, insinuate that its a sexism problem, that everyone that disagrees is a racist and horrible person (re: deplorables), or that trump supporters are all uneducated retards, you are the problem.

promoting real discussion is the only way to make sure that everyone wins - you can learn from the other side's viewpoints, have more informed opinions on important issues, and be able to put yourself on more than one side sometimes. again, not always black and white.

A fair amount of Hillary supporters are being retards by violently rioting and burning flags I the streets.

A fair amount of Trump supporters are being racist towards people and gloating in the face of his win.

Both sides need to:

Not act like this, and win/lose gracefully and focus on how we can move forward and progress as a country. It helps nobody to just say "look how shitty Clinton/Trump supporters are , they're ALL violently rioting/ being racists in the face of the election! We need to stop making retarded blanket statements that loop all Trump supporters and Hillary into one stereyotope because it's simply not helping.

@734

Policies that affext the lower class disproportionately are inherently racist since they reinforce a class structure that currently makes being white better than being black. Stuff like repealing the ACA affects the black community more.

In fairness I don't think you can blame people for gloating for a while given how everyone talked about Trump's chances until the very night before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqEddipbpkw

meme arrows are used for quoting and they're easier than doing html for every single piece I want to discuss

why am i getting downvoted for providing the definition of racism?

people are not poor because they are black what you said is wrong and is not a racist policy

I have to leave this thread for a while because responses are coming so fast that I simply do not have time to deal with them all (and reckon with the stupidity within)

If you think that is a copout and I have nothing to say to respond to x y and z feel free to pm me or add me on steam to find out just how fucking wrong you are

I will leave with the following statements:

1. Nothing gets me angrier than people acting like anyone who isn't a big fan of the election result is a "crybaby" or a "sore loser". this isn't a fucking game, people's lives are at stake- like they are in literally every election. this transcends politics, acting like it's all one big joke is such a privileged position that it's hard for me to even fathom.

2. I guarantee none of y'all were particularly gung-ho about the electoral college on Monday. It's a horrendous system that disenfranchises people on the basis of race, decreases voter turnout because of people who know that their state is a fait accompli, and is set up (like gerrymandering) to almost always help out the same political party over and over again.

3. Donald Trump has already released a 100-day plan which, while deliberately vague for the purposes of misleading people at times, does present a very good picture of what some of his policy goals will be. In light of that, anyone still saying "give him a chance, u don't know what kind of president he will be!!!" is a moron.

4. I do not condone the violence in some of the protests, but sadly I understand it. The vast majority of protests are peaceful, just like the vast majority of Trump supporters. The problem with the violence of Trump supporters is a) what they are violent on behalf of, and b) the continual refusal of Trump himself to condemn any of it. Peaceful protests and civil disobedience are two of the cornerstones of our democracy, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Hundreds of people I know are at the protests in NYC right now and I can assure you that they are primarily peaceful, and utterly massive.
4b. It's also incorrect when people say protests like this are pointless. Remember the Tea Party? This is how such a movement starts.

5. I love the irony of people claiming I'm some sheltered college student when my school is over 50% students of color, and I grew up in the most ethnically diverse city in the world. If we are going to use the sheltered argument, I'd say the people who have never listened to the personal testimonials of minorities are pretty goddamn sheltered. I just went to my US/Latino History class where the student population is probably 80% Hispanic, which was one of the more depressing experiences I've had as of late.

6. I have never, nor will I ever say that the primary reason Donald Trump won is because his supporters are racist. First of all, the overtly racist Trump supporters are people who would always vote Republican no matter what (except for maybe Ben Carson lol), and not at all the swing voters who could decide the outcome of an election. More importantly though, this strawman covers up a more important truth; many voters may not be indisputably racist, but they chose to vote turning a blind eye to both the rhetoric and policies of Donald Trump which are. We can discuss why that is, but we must first admit that any Trump supporter has to reckon with that fact, whether it be because they support his protectionism or because they hated Clinton that very much.

7. As elliot began to hint at, we are in a post-Jim Crow era; our laws are not, on their face, racially discriminatory. Yet, in their disparate impacts, many of them become just that- the War on Drugs, Voter ID laws, any slashing of government assistance, any proposed immigration or mass deportation, etc. Supporting most of these policies (except the latter two), might not require any racial bias from the voter, but try telling that to a black guy who bears the brunt of such policies.

8. On Muslim immigration/mass deportation of illegal immigrants- I do not believe it is a stretch to use the term 'racism', or at least 'racial bias', when people call for policies based on an emotional belief that a particular group is culpable for a problem when the data simply does not support it. All evidence we have suggests that Mexican undocumented immigrants are not just a net positive for our economy, but utterly central to it. Hell, Trump's whole focus on outsourcing jobs to China and the need to fight against that just shows how hopeless it is to consider the work, especially in the agricultural sphere that migrant workers do as something that we can just replace with unemployed American citizens.

9. To a degree, it wouldn't matter if Trump were a faceless, personality-less robot, because he has already made it clear that he will surround himself with a cadre of extreme social and economic conservatives and be, AT LEAST, a Bush Administration 2.0. If you find that appealing, all power to you. But if you're living the pipe dream that he's 'not even a conservative', you will be disappointed.

10. I do not watch CNN, MSNBC, or any other tv news. To the extent that good journalism is still accessible, it can be found 95% of the time in print media. For example, here was an incredible, and prescient article I read the other day:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/13/liberal-media-bias-working-class-americans

11. I cannot recommend enough that people here really peruse the aforementioned 100 day plan; I am sure some of you (slayer, spacecadet) will support the agenda within, but I am confident that many of y'all would find yourself questioning some of his plans, at least when each of the small summaries within has been expanded and explained by someone who understands his implications.

12. If you don't believe that even children are legitimately anxious about the result of the election (not always accurately, ie "mommy will I be deported back to Puerto Rico?"), then you haven't been paying attention, or don't know a person of color.

14. I will end with this: I am usually the biggest believer of shying away from judging the personal character of a politician in favor of his policies. For instance, I have never given a shit about sex scandals (other than as a humorous, reality tv-esque distraction), because the personal vices of a politician shouldn't overpower his or her ability to enact good on a societal level. However, the sheer volume of Trump's many, many disgusting comments is hard to ignore, and it's sadly fairly easy to see a link between his general disdain for most other people and the kind of president he will be.

I am sure I am forgetting important points to address, but that's life. I need to take a cold shower and prepare for what I'm going to do to fight this man every step of the way and get a true populist progressive candidate the next time around. I highly recommend supporting the ACLU in the meantime.

One last thing since it didn't fit above-

Take a look at:
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4r2yxs/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is/?st=ivdd2s88&sh=5dc93313
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4r58wo/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is/
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4sv46y/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4svwua/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_donald_trump/
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4t0fsu/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is_crazy/
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4teoxl/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4uapwn/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is_a/

Yes, some of these points are outdated, or have been debunked, or are exaggerated. Over half of them, however, are still valid. If you try to argue against me, after I have given that disclaimer, by pointing out a few that are out or context or that Trump has (thankfully, finally) distanced himself from, I will not respect your reading comprehension.

People aren't poor because they're black, glad we agree. Black people are more likely to be poor because throughout the history of the US various ethnic majorities have declared themselves white and black people black and have worked to maintain the superiority of whites over other races. The fact that black people now, hundreds of years later, are still at the bottom even though the US is not directly racial in its policy is not a waiver saying the US is post-racial. Policies that disenfranchise inner-cities or harm people in lower income brackets will disproportionately affect more minorities than whites, and as a result these policies will continue to be racist.

That doesn't mean they're necessarily bad policies or that supporting them makes you a bad person, but reinforcing a society where race correlates to social class is reinforcing racism.

the policy isn't racist its not targeting black people the fact that more black people are impacted by it does not make it racist in order for it to be racist it would have to intend to harm only the black people
if i decide not to give to charity am i racist because the charity gives more to blacks than it does to whites?

I am upset about obvious exaggerations such as the examples I posted. I agree that this obviously impacts children and many of them have legitimate reasons to be concerned, but the fact is that many parents have blown this way out of proportion.

Can you really fault them completely though, considering trumps rhetoric?
His supporters took him seriously but not literally
Clinton supporters took him literally but not seriously

Not saying people don't blow him way out of proportion, but the majority didn't decide to do that all willy nilly

Why does it have to only harm black people to be racist? Racism isn't just about prejudice or targeting people based on race. Racism is about a systemic and society wide devaluing of people based on perceived differences in biology/ethnicity that we group as a "race". People saying blacks can't be racist sound dumb, but in the most literal sense they aren't wrong because the core factor in what we determine to be racism depends on a power imbalance. That power balance manifests as a stratification of social class based on race (in a purely racist society). The US isn't purely racist, but there's definitely a lot of imbalance between race and class. The fact that the two are so correlated makes targeting one usually affect the other. This is why policies that affect the lower classes are seen as racist. US society has set itself up in such a way that the majority of lower class people are black but just enough are white to say you're not being racially motivated when you target lower classes with policy and come across as genuine. Recognizing that even policies that come from a completely racially unmotivated place can still have racist impacts by serving to reinforce the marginalization of minorities is important in be racially conscious.

The fact that republicans hear this over and over and over and over and instead of explaining how their policies won't serve to maintain current social standings cry about how they aren't racist at all shows one of two things: the GOP is made up of politicians too stupid to understand basic sociological concepts OR the GOP knows that confronting this reality will alienate voters who aren't as well informed about how racism in America truly works and vote GOP by telling themselves they're voting for fiscal conservatism but don't hate black people. Most of them don't actually hate black people, but I doubt most people are particularly aware of the ways that class and race interact in America and don't realize when they get called racist it isn't because they're joining the Klan.

Occam's razor says the GOP isn't dumb

http://i.imgur.com/TKnZuox.jpg

Not really related to the current discussion, but here's a list of things Trump has done since being elected (that I am aware of):

1: Nominated climate change denier Myron Ebell as the leader of his EPA transition team, pissing off pretty much everyone who isn't a climate change denier or in the coal/gas business

2: Says he wants to impose congressional term limits (which was in his 100 day plan), pissing off McConnell and pretty much everyone in congress

3: Claimed in an interview today that he likes main Obamacare provisions 'very much', pissing off the anti-obamacare republicans

4: Replaced Christie with Pence as the leader of his transition effort, which isn't really surprising at all

@744

I'd say 90% of the content at least that I looked at that paints him as being a racist has either been disproven or is something that Trump directly wasn't involved in. Like come on blaming him for photoshopping a German soldier onto the background of a graphic?! Like, I'm sure that was him personally that did that, or I'm sure he gave his staff orders to do that. Really? And the Jewish star on that Hillary graphic, again I'm sure Trump was involved in the entire creation of doing that....

I don't know how he can be a racist if he has also treated so many minorities with such great respect and hired so many of them to work at his company. Another example is he will be appointing Dr. Ben Carson to his cabinet. I'm pretty sure a true racist wouldn't hire a black man for a position like that.

The media and clinton campaign (same thing really) has spent over a year digging up dirt, paying people off to make things up, and grasping at straws to try to prove he is a racist. I just don't buy that that is his general behavior.

https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrumpNews.Co/videos/1776200712637398/

It's not very often that we see a video showing the good that he has done, and how he has helped people, but I feel it is worth watching for those that have only seen Trump's "dark side" as portrayed by the media.

people aren't poor because there black your social standing isnt determined by your race the president was literally black racism is not so widespread
just because there is a larger number of minorities who are poor than does not mean we need to put legislation in to help them
republicans are conservative so they don't put legislation in to help people economically for the most part this economic policy does not make them racist

He has also released his plans to withdraw from the TPP, fund clean water and infrastructure improvement, and lift bans on increased gun magazine sizes and suppressors while trying to improve the current background-check and mental health systems.

What interested me most about his plans to deport illegals is that in his 100 day plan he called for the deportation of "criminal illegals", which means he might only deport illegal immigrants that have committed crimes.

I like most of these plans, especially the lift on suppressor bans, as anyone with any knowledge on guns knows that suppressors only serve to protect the ears of people shooting the guns and don't really make the gun "silent".

one of the few things about trump that I actually agree with, as I've said

source on his actual policy suggestions? other than just empty words?

that's bad (and he's opposed to universal background checks from what I've seen so also somewhat inaccurate)

I wish that was what it meant

but that is not what it meant

sorry