What is the game that requires the most skill?

#31

quintosh

13 Frags – +

chess

#32

Cerdur

16 Frags – +

mintcakesVulcan-snip-so what ur saying is if i play a few k more hrs i will finally be good @ tf2?

:(
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mustardoverlord/

[quote=mintcakes][quote=Vulcan]-snip-[/quote]
so what ur saying is if i play a few k more hrs i will finally be good @ tf2?[/quote]
:(
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mustardoverlord/

#33

pop7up

2 Frags – +

VulcanYou can determine how hard a game is by calculating the average hours of top players. And how many hours are need to be considered "pro". Average quake hours 15,000+, average tf2 hours 8000, average csgo hours 5000. In that regard I would definitely consider quake the hardest game.

Some of the smarter people may have also seen a pattern in the way they are arranged, it seems the harder the game the less of a competitive scene it has. I think this is because harder games are more confusing and the average audience won't be able to keep up, leading to the esport not being as popular

Tbh it really isn't a way, because experience from other games can count to that and shit. Most csgo pro's right now played earlier cs games, like css and cs 1.6, for thousands of hours. Scream, who I guess is regarded as god of one taps, has been playing since 2002(?), and his hours in csgo is 5000 ish(idk he has a private profile so im just guessing). Although I will agree that quake is the hardest 1v1 game.

[quote=Vulcan]You can determine how hard a game is by calculating the average hours of top players. And how many hours are need to be considered "pro". Average quake hours 15,000+, average tf2 hours 8000, average csgo hours 5000. In that regard I would definitely consider quake the hardest game.

Some of the smarter people may have also seen a pattern in the way they are arranged, it seems the harder the game the less of a competitive scene it has. I think this is because harder games are more confusing and the average audience won't be able to keep up, leading to the esport not being as popular[/quote]
Tbh it really isn't a way, because experience from other games can count to that and shit. Most csgo pro's right now played earlier cs games, like css and cs 1.6, for thousands of hours. Scream, who I guess is regarded as god of one taps, has been playing since 2002(?), and his hours in csgo is 5000 ish(idk he has a private profile so im just guessing). Although I will agree that quake is the hardest 1v1 game.

#34

jrod

-3 Frags – +

Is there a way to see through steam or some website what the average hours for that game is, like including casual players?

#35

jrod

-7 Frags – +

mmrarkteVulcanYou can determine how hard a game is by calculating the average hours of top players. And how many hours are need to be considered "pro". Average quake hours 15,000+, average tf2 hours 8000, average csgo hours 5000. In that regard I would definitely consider quake the hardest game.

Some of the smarter people may have also seen a pattern in the way they are arranged, it seems the harder the game the less of a competitive scene it has. I think this is because harder games are more confusing and the average audience won't be able to keep up, leading to the esport not being as popularway to pull completely random numbers out of your ass

They arent random, you can literally do it yourself and get the same numbers, keep in mind its not 100% accurate because steam has only recorded hours since 2009

[quote=mmrarkte][quote=Vulcan]You can determine how hard a game is by calculating the average hours of top players. And how many hours are need to be considered "pro". Average quake hours 15,000+, average tf2 hours 8000, average csgo hours 5000. In that regard I would definitely consider quake the hardest game.

Some of the smarter people may have also seen a pattern in the way they are arranged, it seems the harder the game the less of a competitive scene it has. I think this is because harder games are more confusing and the average audience won't be able to keep up, leading to the esport not being as popular[/quote]
way to pull completely random numbers out of your ass[/quote]
They arent random, you can literally do it yourself and get the same numbers, keep in mind its not 100% accurate because steam has only recorded hours since 2009

#36

flatline

12 Frags – +

hours have nothing to do with anything wtf

#37

SpaceCadet

0 Frags – +

Probably Chess.
No game invented yet, or maybe ever, will have as high a skill ceiling

#38

jrod

-20 Frags – +

flatlinehours have nothing to do with anything wtf

Have you heard of the 10,000 hours rule? That it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at what youre doing?

[quote=flatline]hours have nothing to do with anything wtf[/quote]
Have you heard of the 10,000 hours rule? That it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at what youre doing?

#39

wru

1 Frags – +

life

#40

the301stspartan

19 Frags – +

Vulcanflatlinehours have nothing to do with anything wtfHave you heard of the 10,000 hours rule? That it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at what youre doing?

Have you heard that it's bullshit?

[quote=Vulcan][quote=flatline]hours have nothing to do with anything wtf[/quote]
Have you heard of the 10,000 hours rule? That it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at what youre doing?[/quote]

Have you heard that it's bullshit?

#41

Erratic

8 Frags – +

Vulcanflatlinehours have nothing to do with anything wtfHave you heard of the 10,000 hours rule? That it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at what youre doing?

Mike has less than 7000 total hours as of now.
:thinking:

[quote=Vulcan][quote=flatline]hours have nothing to do with anything wtf[/quote]
Have you heard of the 10,000 hours rule? That it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at what youre doing?[/quote]
Mike has less than 7000 total hours as of now.
:thinking:

#42

Fire

5 Frags – +

x

#43

shoras

6 Frags – +

Quake CPMA

#44

Dreamboat

11 Frags – +

Highlander Spy

#45

Bilbert

0 Frags – +

quintoshchessSpaceCadetProbably Chess.
No game invented yet, or maybe ever, will have as high a skill ceiling

What about go? I know it took longer for computers to beat humans at go than at chess, for whatever that's worth. I agree with you that chess has a pretty high skill ceiling. Chess players can improve their game pretty much their entire lives, unlike a lot of more physically athletic 1v1 games, where the body gives out at some point. In comparison, e-sports are recent enough that no one has really had more that a couple decades of experience.

[quote=quintosh]chess[/quote]
[quote=SpaceCadet]Probably Chess.
No game invented yet, or maybe ever, will have as high a skill ceiling[/quote]
What about go? I know it took longer for computers to beat humans at go than at chess, for whatever that's worth. I agree with you that chess has a pretty high skill ceiling. Chess players can improve their game pretty much their entire lives, unlike a lot of more physically athletic 1v1 games, where the body gives out at some point. In comparison, e-sports are recent enough that no one has really had more that a couple decades of experience.

#46

msh_

0 Frags – +

BilbertquintoshchessSpaceCadetProbably Chess.
No game invented yet, or maybe ever, will have as high a skill ceilingWhat about go? I know it took longer for computers to beat humans at go than at chess, for whatever that's worth. I agree with you that chess has a pretty high skill ceiling. Chess players can improve their game pretty much their entire lives, unlike a lot of more physically athletic 1v1 games, where the body gives out at some point. In comparison, e-sports are recent enough that no one has really had more that a couple decades of experience.

It took longer for computers to beat humans at go because there are just too many possible moves for computers to calculate outcomes at a reasonable timescale while in chess there are far less viable moves. They're both hard in their own ways and you can't really compare the 2

[quote=Bilbert][quote=quintosh]chess[/quote]
[quote=SpaceCadet]Probably Chess.
No game invented yet, or maybe ever, will have as high a skill ceiling[/quote]
What about go? I know it took longer for computers to beat humans at go than at chess, for whatever that's worth. I agree with you that chess has a pretty high skill ceiling. Chess players can improve their game pretty much their entire lives, unlike a lot of more physically athletic 1v1 games, where the body gives out at some point. In comparison, e-sports are recent enough that no one has really had more that a couple decades of experience.[/quote]

It took longer for computers to beat humans at go because there are just too many possible moves for computers to calculate outcomes at a reasonable timescale while in chess there are far less viable moves. They're both hard in their own ways and you can't really compare the 2

#47

joshuawn

1 Frags – +

shirtsnotshoesAre there any that are like an MMO but allow for insane individual skill? (Kind of like black desert online but more deep in terms of mechanics)

DARKFALL: RISE OF AGON for NA players and DARKFALL: NEW DAWN for EU players

hardcore open world sandbox fantasy MMOFPS with full-loot & clan warfare.

some recent gameplay videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxZ50K4cmgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng7oSFDpcWU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_YdSt7CF5M

manual attacks (melee, archery, & magic), a wide variety of spells & skills (~60 unique spells out of ~100 in total that are actively used in competitive play), fast paced movement (INCLUDING BUNNYHOPPING), and active health/stamina/mana management to name a few defining PvP features.

easily the most skillful MMO that has ever existed

the new player experience (NPE) isn't well fleshed-out & the population is relatively small as a result (~200-500 on at any given time). as such, i do not recommend that you pick it up quite yet. once they make it easier for people to understand the game, however, i have high hopes for its success.

very talented team of veteran darkfall players are leading the game's development; the community practically directly develops the game.

note: darkfall was originally available between 2009-2012 until Aventurine (the original developers) went under.
~2 years ago, two different teams got in contact with the right people & were able to license the game (giving them nearly full control over the source code).
the directions of development between RoA and ND are a bit different, but the fast-paced combat isn't in contention.
it's safe to say that NA players should play on RoA (their beta server is hosted in New York) and EU players should play on ND (their beta server is hosted in Paris).
having high ping is disadvantageous, but it isn't the end of the world.
for example, one of the best players lives in Pakistan and plays on RoA with 200+ ping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1AEIMNZFjk

[quote=shirtsnotshoes]Are there any that are like an MMO but allow for insane individual skill? (Kind of like black desert online but more deep in terms of mechanics)[/quote]

[url=https://darkfallriseofagon.com/]DARKFALL: RISE OF AGON[/url] for NA players and [url=https://darkfallnewdawn.com/]DARKFALL: NEW DAWN[/url] for EU players

hardcore open world sandbox fantasy MMOFPS with full-loot & clan warfare.

some recent gameplay videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxZ50K4cmgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng7oSFDpcWU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_YdSt7CF5M

manual attacks (melee, archery, & magic), a wide variety of spells & skills (~60 unique spells out of ~100 in total that are actively used in competitive play), fast paced movement (INCLUDING BUNNYHOPPING), and active health/stamina/mana management to name a few defining PvP features.

easily the most skillful MMO that has ever existed

the new player experience (NPE) isn't well fleshed-out & the population is relatively small as a result (~200-500 on at any given time). as such, i do not recommend that you pick it up quite yet. once they make it easier for people to understand the game, however, i have high hopes for its success.

very talented team of veteran darkfall players are leading the game's development; the community practically directly develops the game.

note: darkfall was originally available between 2009-2012 until Aventurine (the original developers) went under.
~2 years ago, two different teams got in contact with the right people & were able to license the game (giving them nearly full control over the source code).
the directions of development between RoA and ND are a bit different, but the fast-paced combat isn't in contention.
it's safe to say that NA players should play on RoA (their beta server is hosted in New York) and EU players should play on ND (their beta server is hosted in Paris).
having high ping is disadvantageous, but it isn't the end of the world.
for example, one of the best players lives in Pakistan and plays on RoA with 200+ ping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1AEIMNZFjk

#48

ulmyxx

-1 Frags – +

csgo players also have experience in source or 1.6

#49

Stempiaz

-1 Frags – +

Super Smash Bros

#50

Ignis

-1 Frags – +

talking about RPG games,i think devil may cry 4 has a crazy high skill ceiling

#51

megalinx

-1 Frags – +

super smash bros melee top players do 7 inputs a second and most of the inputs require 2 or 3 buttons to perform one action

#52

THEBILLDOZER

0 Frags – +

megalinxsuper smash bros melee top players do 7 inputs a second and most of the inputs require 2 or 3 buttons to perform one actionStempiazSuper Smash Bros

traditional fighter games also have things like quarter circles, half circles, the z shaped ones, and all the other mixups and combos with their l/m/H/ buttons but i wouldnt consider either of them harder than quake or rts games. maybe if quake were only ammomod it would be comparable

[quote=megalinx]super smash bros melee top players do 7 inputs a second and most of the inputs require 2 or 3 buttons to perform one action[/quote]
[quote=Stempiaz]Super Smash Bros[/quote]
traditional fighter games also have things like quarter circles, half circles, the z shaped ones, and all the other mixups and combos with their l/m/H/ buttons but i wouldnt consider either of them harder than quake or rts games. maybe if quake were only ammomod it would be comparable

#53

PRJ

-5 Frags – +

Games which have infinite skill ceilings (which is a vast majority of them) are all equally hard and the difficulty of them is entirely dependent on the level of competition you play against

if the entire player base of quake or chess was a room full of toddlers neither would be very difficult to be the best at.

Games which have infinite skill ceilings (which is a vast majority of them) are all equally hard and the difficulty of them is entirely dependent on the level of competition you play against

if the entire player base of quake or chess was a room full of toddlers neither would be very difficult to be the best at.

#54

eee

-1 Frags – +

PRJGames which have infinite skill ceilings (which is a vast majority of them) are all equally hard and the difficulty of them is entirely dependent on the level of competition you play against

if the entire player base of quake or chess was a room full of toddlers neither would be very difficult to be the best at.

that's a pretty stupid point to make tbh

skill curves don't have a constant slope. Its far easier to get decent or good at some games than others. Being a mid level (Open/IM) tf2 player takes a few years. Being a mid level chess player can take a decade. Even if both are feasible to do for most people and take similar amounts of effort itd be dumb to say TF2 is harder

[quote=PRJ]Games which have infinite skill ceilings (which is a vast majority of them) are all equally hard and the difficulty of them is entirely dependent on the level of competition you play against

if the entire player base of quake or chess was a room full of toddlers neither would be very difficult to be the best at.[/quote]
that's a pretty stupid point to make tbh

skill curves don't have a constant slope. Its far easier to get decent or good at some games than others. Being a mid level (Open/IM) tf2 player takes a few years. Being a mid level chess player can take a decade. Even if both are feasible to do for most people and take similar amounts of effort itd be dumb to say TF2 is harder

#55

shirtsnotshoes

-4 Frags – +

reading the serious suggestions in this thread, I am afraid none of these fit what I wanted. Actually, now that I think about it, I think my expectations far exceed the capabilities of current videogames.

I want something where I'm able to have complete control over my character (i'm talking about availability to control muscle contractions and shit with just my hands or some other input method, so I don't know if multiple keyboards would suffice or what, cuz that level of APM might not be humanely possible) so that the skill is not only in outplaying/reading your opponents but also in your ability to control your own character and utilize attacks that you can create yourself; like martial arts in real life kind of.

Ironically, the closest thing that I can think of to this is bending in minecraft. There aren't videos that showcase it but it's basically the same idea except the combos and stuff are simple (pressing buttons to activate the same move over and over again). This type of game would have to have extremely low lag too :[

quake is fun but it's mostly aim & thinking, I want something with micro, thinking, and combat (so SC2 and other ARTS are out of the picture)..

Any suggestions or do I lose :(?

edit: also Melee is good but it's not really as deep as I want it. Instead of having like 10 moves in total to cycle through in situations to combo, I'd rather be able to create hundreds of moves myself, through free movement if that makes sense.

is it possible to use your feet for input LOL like I don't think just hands cut it for this type of game i'm describing..

reading the serious suggestions in this thread, I am afraid none of these fit what I wanted. Actually, now that I think about it, I think my expectations far exceed the capabilities of current videogames.

I want something where I'm able to have complete control over my character (i'm talking about availability to control muscle contractions and shit with just my hands or some other input method, so I don't know if multiple keyboards would suffice or what, cuz that level of APM might not be humanely possible) so that the skill is not only in outplaying/reading your opponents but also in your ability to control your own character and utilize attacks that you can create yourself; like martial arts in real life kind of.

Ironically, the closest thing that I can think of to this is bending in minecraft. There aren't videos that showcase it but it's basically the same idea except the combos and stuff are simple (pressing buttons to activate the same move over and over again). This type of game would have to have extremely low lag too :[

quake is fun but it's mostly aim & thinking, I want something with micro, thinking, and combat (so SC2 and other ARTS are out of the picture)..

Any suggestions or do I lose :(?

edit: also Melee is good but it's not really as deep as I want it. Instead of having like 10 moves in total to cycle through in situations to combo, I'd rather be able to create hundreds of moves myself, through free movement if that makes sense.

is it possible to use your feet for input LOL like I don't think just hands cut it for this type of game i'm describing..

#56

crackbabydumpster

8 Frags – +

bro you're talking about real life

#57

tsar

4 Frags – +

shirtsnotshoesreading the serious suggestions in this thread, I am afraid none of these fit what I wanted. Actually, now that I think about it, I think my expectations far exceed the capabilities of current videogames.

I want something where I'm able to have complete control over my character (i'm talking about availability to control muscle contractions and shit with just my hands or some other input method, so I don't know if multiple keyboards would suffice or what, cuz that level of APM might not be humanely possible) so that the skill is not only in outplaying/reading your opponents but also in your ability to control your own character and utilize attacks that you can create yourself; like martial arts in real life kind of.

Ironically, the closest thing that I can think of to this is bending in minecraft. There aren't videos that showcase it but it's basically the same idea except the combos and stuff are simple (pressing buttons to activate the same move over and over again). This type of game would have to have extremely low lag too :[

quake is fun but it's mostly aim & thinking, I want something with micro, thinking, and combat (so SC2 and other ARTS are out of the picture)..

Any suggestions or do I lose :(?

edit: also Melee is good but it's not really as deep as I want it. Instead of having like 10 moves in total to cycle through in situations to combo, I'd rather be able to create hundreds of moves myself, through free movement if that makes sense.

is it possible to use your feet for input LOL like I don't think just hands cut it for this type of game i'm describing..

get you and a bunch of your buddies on a boat in international waters. You can have the most control in a fighting game that way.

[quote=shirtsnotshoes]reading the serious suggestions in this thread, I am afraid none of these fit what I wanted. Actually, now that I think about it, I think my expectations far exceed the capabilities of current videogames.

I want something where I'm able to have complete control over my character (i'm talking about availability to control muscle contractions and shit with just my hands or some other input method, so I don't know if multiple keyboards would suffice or what, cuz that level of APM might not be humanely possible) so that the skill is not only in outplaying/reading your opponents but also in your ability to control your own character and utilize attacks that you can create yourself; like martial arts in real life kind of.

Ironically, the closest thing that I can think of to this is bending in minecraft. There aren't videos that showcase it but it's basically the same idea except the combos and stuff are simple (pressing buttons to activate the same move over and over again). This type of game would have to have extremely low lag too :[

quake is fun but it's mostly aim & thinking, I want something with micro, thinking, and combat (so SC2 and other ARTS are out of the picture)..

Any suggestions or do I lose :(?

edit: also Melee is good but it's not really as deep as I want it. Instead of having like 10 moves in total to cycle through in situations to combo, I'd rather be able to create hundreds of moves myself, through free movement if that makes sense.

is it possible to use your feet for input LOL like I don't think just hands cut it for this type of game i'm describing..[/quote]

get you and a bunch of your buddies on a boat in international waters. You can have the most control in a fighting game that way.

#58

shirtsnotshoes

-2 Frags – +

saambro you're talking about real life

but there's pain and shit in real life. and if u die in real life you die in real life so there's no fun in that

[quote=saam]bro you're talking about real life[/quote]

but there's pain and shit in real life. and if u die in real life you die in real life so there's no fun in that

#59

troy

1 Frags – +

Vulcan

http://puu.sh/sR4bs/1f7fd944b8.png

http://puu.sh/sR4d7/af068c0208.png

[quote=Vulcan][/quote]

[img]http://puu.sh/sR4bs/1f7fd944b8.png[/img]

[img]http://puu.sh/sR4d7/af068c0208.png[/img]

#60

messiah

7 Frags – +

just settle with wii boxing